DonPetro
Well-Known Member
Yea man i hear leaf mold is where its at. I may be attempting a make soon.
Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread
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DonTesla
Well-Known Member
BEEEEautiful
OutofLEDCloset
Well-Known Member
Now I get it! K.I.S.S closet, use peat. So its more active and higher CEC, that's enough for me. Do you have an opinion about the CC pack from build a soil?
Pattahabi
Well-Known Member
OutofLED, I'm assuming the CC pack from BAS is pretty much the same as I use in my mix. I always source locally first, then if I can't find something I'll order it online. They will definitely steer you in the right direction as far as what to use.
This is what I recommend for beginners to get a baseline. There are a slew of organic gardeners that use nearly this exact mix with outstanding results.
I see a pattern of new organic growers trying to experiment with mixes before they ever get a baseline (I was one of those growers). I spent enough time chasing my tail trying to apply a hydrostore mentality to organics. It just doesn't work. Experimenting with my first hodge podge Coot's mix yielded results far beyond what I had ever achieved in super soil. Therefore, I recommend this mix knowing myself and many others have used it with success.
Don't ask what can you add to your soil, but what can you simplify.
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reasonevangelist
Well-Known Member
My question for you, is this:
As a new grower who has not yet established a baseline, agrees with the KISS principle (in almost every area of life), wants to use the most eco-friendly organic KISS approach, but DOES NOT WANT TO USE PEAT (personal preference, regardless of alleged superior performance)...
What is the simplest and most performant baseline? Without peat, what's the next best simplest way to establish an acceptable non-peat alternative? I'm having trouble finding this particular answer/information anywhere. Hyroot has been the closest to answering that so far. "coco, castings/vermicompost, alfalfa, kelp, neem, rock dust" is about all i've grasped so far.
I would like to prioritize these considerations: organic (and eco-friendly), KISS, non-peat. The next sublevel of priorities would be "cheap and fast." I don't want to spend 2 months building a worm bin and waiting for it to produce enough yield, prior to beginning my soil. I don't have the budget to just ship the top tier products across the country. I realize i will have to "evolve" whatever baseline soil i start with... but i need an acceptable starting point, so that i can begin.
I simply don't know of a resource that exists in accordance with the approach i want to take, both from personal preference of peat-avoidance, and necessity of limited budget.
However, on that note: with regard to budget, "maybe i should just use the cheapest thing that will perform adequately."
These are my concerns, and i would like to resolve them to a solution, so i can just get started, so i can actually start learning physically, instead of just theorizing. Eventually, i will figure out the intricate parts on my own, from experience... but i'm having trouble reaching a starting point. I considered starting my own thread for this, but i'm almost certain it will result in a "peat vs coco" argument, instead of actually helping me figure out what to do.
I want to avoid peat and synthetics, but i still want a "good" soil, and i don't want to go broke building it, or take months before it's ready to begin.
Pattahabi
Well-Known Member
@reasonevangelist I do not have an answer for quick, reliable replacement for peat. It has been in the base mix since Cornell university created it in the 1960's. You can go with coco, I can't help you in that arena.
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35 coco/ 10 peat / 15 Soil / 30 growstone (http://www.growstone.com/) blue gravel dust and chips (from the driveway), crab and oyster (from a meal), some dried brown kelp from the beach, comfey, nettles, alfalfa and assorted flowers from the garden dried (a couple of years ago). I re-ammended just with a bit of each spread each week or two, or in a couple of teas and added EWC last time, scratched into the surface.. definitely bumped up the growth (I guess EWC might now comprise 10% of the mix).
Coco works fine, used it in hydro last year and 3rd run in organic mix. Noticed more mg deficiency (rthan other soil grows) so i'm going to try to fix that, in the mix, but same/same- healthy lush growth right through. Much cheaper than peat around here.
Coco works fine, used it in hydro last year and 3rd run in organic mix. Noticed more mg deficiency (rthan other soil grows) so i'm going to try to fix that, in the mix, but same/same- healthy lush growth right through. Much cheaper than peat around here.
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reasonevangelist
Well-Known Member
I was thinking of just straight substituting the Coot recipe peat with coco at 1:1, rice hulls for aeration, found some locally produced castings, and grabbing the BAS "CC kit."
Say...
1cuft of coco (50% of my total volume of 15gal)
rice hulls
local EWC (actually "RWC")
CC kit x2 (since i need total 2cuft for a 15gal pot)
Would that be... roughly acceptable? Or do i need to add something else when substituting coco for peat?
And when substituting coco, do i just use the assumed 1:1 coco
eat ratio? Or do i need "more coco to replace peat," or "less coco to replace peat?" Or i might just skip the coco and just go with peat for now. It's not like 1cuft is going to make or break the ecosystem, and it's not like my personal peat avoidance will stop the bog harvesting...
(i'm also heavily considering starting a massive red worm bin, since it's apparently scarce in my region, which surprises me)
(i don't have a large enough amount of tree leaves to start my own leafmold... one large tree in the yard, and it won't start dropping leaves for at least another month or two, which puts me a minimum of a year away from having any self-made leafmold lol... and i don't even know if it's "that kind of tree," tbh... it's big and old, trunk is probably 1m wide at the base, massive root network...).
(lowe's peat is cheap enough... ~$10 for 3cuft of "organic")
Oh! i just remembered: i don't see volume listed on any of the worm castings, only weight.
How do i know by weight, how much volume i'm getting? If the castings only list weight, how do i figure out how many pounds is 5 gallons?
DonPetro
Well-Known Member
It would depend on the moisture content. You can use a one gallon pail like an old ice cream pail or something to measure it out. If you do go coco then yes, same ratio as peat.I was thinking of just straight substituting the Coot recipe peat with coco at 1:1, rice hulls for aeration, found some locally produced castings, and grabbing the BAS "CC kit."
Say...
1cuft of coco (50% of my total volume of 15gal)
rice hulls
local EWC (actually "RWC")
CC kit x2 (since i need total 2cuft for a 15gal pot)
Would that be... roughly acceptable? Or do i need to add something else when substituting coco for peat?
And when substituting coco, do i just use the assumed 1:1 coco
Or i might just skip the coco and just go with peat for now. It's not like 1cuft is going to make or break the ecosystem, and it's not like my personal peat avoidance will stop the bog harvesting...
(i'm also heavily considering starting a massive red worm bin, since it's apparently scarce in my region, which surprises me)
(i don't have a large enough amount of tree leaves to start my own leafmold... one large tree in the yard, and it won't start dropping leaves for at least another month or two, which puts me a minimum of a year away from having any self-made leafmold lol... and i don't even know if it's "that kind of tree," tbh... it's big and old, trunk is probably 1m wide at the base, massive root network...).
(lowe's peat is cheap enough... ~$10 for 3cuft of "organic")
Oh! i just remembered: i don't see volume listed on any of the worm castings, only weight.
How do i know by weight, how much volume i'm getting? If the castings only list weight, how do i figure out how many pounds is 5 gallons?
.. first run I actually used just one 5L bag of Peat in 40L tote (so it was much less than listed above).
I intend to keep adding castings in larger proportions from now. My main reasons for adding more peat were the deficiency mentioned (not a disaster, just a hassle that I had to deal with throughout the grow.. less so last run with a bit more peat and castings)...
that and i'd rather hedge my bets that someone using peat might be having a better grow than me
Rice Hulls I may try, growstone is definitely much better than perlite.
I intend to keep adding castings in larger proportions from now. My main reasons for adding more peat were the deficiency mentioned (not a disaster, just a hassle that I had to deal with throughout the grow.. less so last run with a bit more peat and castings)...
that and i'd rather hedge my bets that someone using peat might be having a better grow than me
Rice Hulls I may try, growstone is definitely much better than perlite.
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SpaaaceCowboy
Well-Known Member
just like organic soil, this thread is alive !
reasonevangelist
Well-Known Member
In my location, i can't seem to find anything verifiably "natural organic" and/or "eco-friendly," or even with honest package labeling.Peat is around $8 a litre here.. so the first run I actually used just one 5L bag in 40L tote (so it was much less than listed above).
I intend to keep adding castings in larger proportions from now. My main reasons for adding more peat were the deficiency mentioned (not a disaster, just a hassle that I had to deal with throughout the grow.. less so last run with a bit more peat and castings)...
that and i'd rather hedge my bets that someone using peat might be having a better grow than me
Rice Hulls I may try, growstone is definitely much better than perlite.
Ideally, i'd like to get 100% OMRI approved stuff, but it just doesn't seem feasible without spending a fortune on shipping various things from various places.
Sure, i could hit lowe's or home depot, or any of the few garden shops around, and pick up something that works... but i can't be sure what's really in it, and none of the stuff that i can figure is "actually what it says it is" on the internet, is even available here. With a thriving agricultural emphasis in this region, i find the lack of commercially available products baffling. Seems like "eco-friendly synthetics" are more popular around here, which is probably just a business and marketing strategy, and not the actual preference of the people. Then again, it's possible that anyone who wants such things is likely making their own, and not advertising it... which would mean the "commercial organics" niche might not be worth a venture to a risk-assessing businessman. I'm speculating of course.
At this point, i'm pretty much satisfied with what i'm seeing on buildasoil, and will most likely give them my money, for the simple fact that they have good info and everything i want to use (minus coco), for reasonable prices, which means less work for me, less driving around town, less reading up on too many different products that might not really be what they claim they are... the only adjustment i really need to make to the BAS/CC mix, is swap out peat for coco... which i might not even bother doing at this point.
Once the base is constructed, i intend to start my own worms, but i'll cross that bridge when i get there. I gotta build lights and filtration first. But my plans are fairly well decided at this point, minus a few details. THANKS TO YOU GUYS! (and a few from other forums)
I think i'm the low-stress 'organic' type lol.. really, my focus is on finding alternatives, most of which is within walking distance of home, from the garden or local forest.
At it's simplest, digging up some -good looking- local provenance soil - mix with aeration- start growing
some interesting thoughts on using alternate aeration here though, I might find something better. Then again, this is the RoOLS thread and already have a heap of soil mixed with growstones - so 'cycling' that is the most eco- friendly.. I only 'use' one but the spare tubs grow Very nice vegies..
At it's simplest, digging up some -good looking- local provenance soil - mix with aeration- start growing
some interesting thoughts on using alternate aeration here though, I might find something better. Then again, this is the RoOLS thread and already have a heap of soil mixed with growstones - so 'cycling' that is the most eco- friendly.. I only 'use' one but the spare tubs grow Very nice vegies..
st0wandgrow
Well-Known Member
In the short term you can try a product called "RePeet" which is essentially composted dairy manure. I don't know where you live, so not sure on the availability of it around you.
http://www.organix.us/product/repeat/
In the long term leaf mold is where it's at. A simple rake and mulch (plus adding a N source to speed up decomposition) is all that needs to be done. It's a fungal dominant cold composting process that will yield a great soil ammendment in around 12 months. I have some leaves from last fall that I'm going to be using as a substitute for peat/coco this fall. I will be saving all of my leaves from this falls clean up and will be completely peat/coco free next year. I'm going to be starting a thread on leaf mold (with Rrog) at some point either here or in the Michigan section.
DonTesla
Well-Known Member
no disrepsect, but excuse me while i YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNN
Pattahabi
Well-Known Member
I like it when you yawn, then I don't have to listen to you misinforming people with stupid crap like their worms are going to live for 10 years never sleeping and double their mass every month. So be my guest, keep poking. And Mr. Canadian, more rasta accent, it makes you sound like you know what you're talking about MON! lmao.
For the people that aren't trying to start $h1t, I'll be curious to see the leaf mold results and how people go about producing it. I'm going to have access to more leaves this year and I plan on working more into my mixes. I'll try and dig up more info.
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DonTesla
Well-Known Member
Do you guys use layers in your worm farms? our bottom layers is 99% EWC at all times…keep all three levels moist, with 1/4 inch hardware mesh in between.. leave a little banana stem / peel in middle of very bottom layer, all worms go to middle..
i know i talked about it in one of my last post but for you people who want to go organic and cant quite leave the mixing should looking into dragonflyearth medcine products.they have a humic acid,floiar spray veg and flowers nutes that are made from benis and stuff like comfrey,kelp alfalfa.you could get away with running promix and that then recycle soil with earthworm castings and/orcompost and you get you recycle soil going!.there nothing in these products that will kill the web it actually contributes.With the mulching of comfrey i noticed i dont have to feed as often with these products which is good for me because these products arent cheap!
DonTesla
Well-Known Member
I PITY DA FOO! I'm posting good info on all fronts, P-boi.. whay u hatin'. 75% of my messages are liked so you can suck _____ and as for worms.. they CAN live up to 10 years.. average life span is only in the 2-3 year range in wild because of all their natural predators.... they do double bio mass too.. may take 3 months (they are sensitive to vibrations and light) my mentor was mistaken on the time frame, throw him in a jail cell !
I've been making worm farms for ppl and kept my worm mass the same or higher. ask these ppl if their worms ever sleep they have 30 acres and run a big wiggler biz.. they say they NEVER SLEEP too. hmm weird. maybe Tesla not crazy.. maybe read all the worm sites not just one that fits ur argument.. then pick ur fights with guys from the Peat side, .. pH nah concern us ..
http://www.localharvest.org/compost-worms-red-wigglers-C19926
"Red Wigglers aka Eisenia Fetida aka "compost worms" are built to compost. They never sleep, and in ideal conditions they double their population every 90 days, and eat their own body weight every 3-4 days!"
-Professional Worm Breeder/Farmer, Acreage/Business owner
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