purplehays1
Well-Known Member
if u were to breed an "f7 hybrid" you would have some very very wide ranging phenotypes, noone would want this. At least that is my understanding of wikipedia!
Why don't Seedbanks state the if the seeds are F1, F2, F3, F4 ect?
- Thread starter burnseedless
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BDOGKush
Well-Known Member
http://en.seedfinder.eu/strain-info/Black_Rose/Unknown_or_Legendary/
"Lately this plant is becoming the Mecca of all purple strains as in its F7 generation all of the seeds, male or female, are showing a pure breeding trait of purples."
Perhaps I am interpreting this wrong or I'm not understanding Mendel's genetics properly. From my knowledge of the subject which I admit is very fundamental, what happened with this strain is it was selectively inbred for 7 generations which caused the purple gene to become homozygous. Which is the whole point of inbreeding, to get a homozygous plant, allowing you to predict the traits that will be passed on to an F1.
That's my understanding of this so if I'm wrong, someone correct me please.
"Lately this plant is becoming the Mecca of all purple strains as in its F7 generation all of the seeds, male or female, are showing a pure breeding trait of purples."
Perhaps I am interpreting this wrong or I'm not understanding Mendel's genetics properly. From my knowledge of the subject which I admit is very fundamental, what happened with this strain is it was selectively inbred for 7 generations which caused the purple gene to become homozygous. Which is the whole point of inbreeding, to get a homozygous plant, allowing you to predict the traits that will be passed on to an F1.
That's my understanding of this so if I'm wrong, someone correct me please.
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
two stable inbreed lines need to be used to create stable traits in F1 hybrid offspring
this is why there is reason to differentiate between the types of F1
using the word "true" suffices for everyone i have encountered apart from you
gabechihua
Well-Known Member
You should probably use the term "stable" F1 instead of "true" F1. Using true makes it sound like you're saying an unstable F1 doesn't qualify as an F1.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
This is starting to feel like Whac-a-Mole week at RIU... So basically you ignored the reasoning and explanation in my post because the link doesn't specifically state it MUST be stable? Where did I turn "usually" into "always"? Somewhere along the line you made up what my point is didn't you... Did you even read beyond my link?
I will give you one clue because I've seen enough of you clowns to spot another one: take a look at Mendel (you know... they guy who made it all up) his examples of F1 and F2 genotypes and you can figure out why the term "true F1" is sometimes appropriate because F1 is nowadays used for more than just a plant cross of two different strains that would result in a heterozygous strain. That underlined piece of the quote really says it all, just pull your head out of your ass and read it again. The fact it's usually the case means it's not always the case and that makes "true" F1 useful to make clear when it IS the case, which in turn IS important for many reasons I won't spoon feed you cause you're a dick
Ok one more clue: figure out why there is so much variation in F2. Well, a true F2 anyway
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
this is another way of doing it,
just think of it like people, if you keep inbreeding over generations of hybrids they will become more uniform but vigour is lost
and genetic problems can occur
two purple parents both would be inbreed until stable over many generations then crossed to produce a stable F1 that is purple
this could be as stable as black rose but with the vigor of an F1
build the traits in the parents first , rather than looking for the trait in successive generations the traits can be lost unpredictably in further generations the f8 or f9 of black rose could lose some of the traits of f7 and the vigor will always be less
from what i can gather you should not need to go past F2 to find the plant you were looking to create
if you can find it in the F1 generation this is perfect
peace
Sativied
Well-Known Member
"In an article titled “The Curse of Knowledge”, it’s noted that as a person learns more about a subject, it becomes increasingly more difficult to discuss that subject with someone who doesn’t posses that knowledge. It simply becomes harder and harder to empathise with them.
This means that the more educated and passionate you are about a subject, the harder you will find it to discuss or teach it to others. This effect is one of the cited possibilities for why teaching is so difficult a career, since it means that eventually teachers will become more and more disillusioned with the endless wave of perceived stupidity they’re forced to endure."
I'm guessing that's partly why you won't find many breeders eager to discuss these topics.
Exactly. I still call my crosses F1s for practical purposes, but in a "few" years when I'm done creating two IBLs and created an F1 out of those, I will surely specifically mention it's a true F1 as then those who care instantly understand what that means.
Breeders and seed makers found out you can sell something that is uniform enough to consider stable enough for growing, without actually breeding traits true (homozygous). Backcrossing for example. Continue crossing back to a plant and you usually will end up with something that looks mostly like that plant you cross back to. Doesn't mean it a truebred of course, not necessarily even for traits because dominant heterozygous genotype and dominant homozygous genotype are the same phenotype so either will do for growing.
That's the difference right there, bean sellers aim for a certain limited amount of pheno variety (uniform and stable enough for growing) and not to create a stable strain others can use for creating and selling true F1s. Considering the amount of commercial breeder wannabees who start seed banks smelling money I can't really blame them for not releasing the Ps of their F1s.... I will, if I ever get that far
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gabechihua
Well-Known Member
This is a direct quote of what you posted.
Unless I'm misinterpreting you, you're telling me an F1 cross that does not involve two homozygous strains doesn't qualify as an F1. All I'm asking for is a link to a definiton that states this, and I don't see where I was being a dick to you I thought we were just having a civilized debate.
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
i did not invent the term myself ..
i am satisfied with using "true" to differentiate between a F1 hybrid with true breeding IBL parent lines
and
an F1 that does not have true breeding IBL parent lines
i do not feel it necessary to make any changes, your suggestion of using "stable" instead perhaps might cause confusion ?
i'm sure at some point someone will say, "by stable do you mean "true" lol
when i started we measured in cf then it went to EC now its ppm
i decided to change myself and quote things in EC so i did not have to keep explaining to noobs what CF was
i am willing to change to accommodate current trends and fashions when its worthwhile
if you are unhappy about the "true" thing you could start a poll or something not sure what else to suggest
peace
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Doh...
Read this, notice underlined part...
"it really is" in that quote doesn't refer to the definition F1 itself but any example of a true F1... which you after the clues in my previous reply to you could have figured out yourself. The fact that second clue didn't turn on a lightbulb in your head shows you don't know enough about the topic to understand so I'm guessing even this reply is a waste of time.
BDOGKush
Well-Known Member
Here you go:
"If the breeder now takes the pure line of each of the two plants he originally selected and cross pollinates the two by hand the result is known as an F1 hybrid."
"To summarise, an F1 hybrid is the result of crossing two pure lines to achieve the desired result."
http://www.thompson-morgan.com/f1-hybrid-what-is-it
"If the breeder now takes the pure line of each of the two plants he originally selected and cross pollinates the two by hand the result is known as an F1 hybrid."
"To summarise, an F1 hybrid is the result of crossing two pure lines to achieve the desired result."
http://www.thompson-morgan.com/f1-hybrid-what-is-it
gabechihua
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I misinterpreted you I had my had severely lodged up my asshole.
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
it appeared to me gabe was playing semantics* and had an issue with the term "true" and even offered an alternative suggestion
indicating that i "should" use the term he suggested "stable" in place of "true"
i like it when folk tell me what i should do , as i see it as a commitment beyond just a suggestion LOL
BDOGKush
Well-Known Member
lol what aboutWell I'm confused now
Read that article that I linked in full, it explains exactly what an F1 hybrid is.
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dluck
Well-Known Member
To medicated to absorb it all right now...lol...I think I have the gist of it though .
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Well, we're not there yet so better hold that apology because you're not going to like what I have to say next: it's still true for the traits that matter. If the traits you are trying to breed into F1 aren't homozygous traits in the parents it does not really qualify as an F1 for that trait (which should be heterozygous in the F1). Feel free to ask for quotes... or, you could google yourself and look for documents that include true F1 and Mendel but exclude cannabis
Or again figure out why there's so much variation in F2. I wrote out the inheritance from P to true F1 to true F2 in a thread about a month ago including 5 traits as example so searching rollitup would work too.
Apparently the same misconception and (mis)using F1 as you do is common in other "hobbies" too, for example, read the first part of: http://www.mchportal.com/fishkeeping-mainmenu-60/52-aquarist-the-regulator/402-myths-in-fishkeeping-iii.html?start=2
"A lot of confusion is associated with the use of the filial system in our hobby, which results in many hobbyists using the same term (F0, F1, F2 etc.) to describe totally different things. The F numbers are part of the filial system introduced by Mendel to designate the sequence of generations following the initial breeding between two parents (Parental generation; P) which were homozygous for different alleles at a locus. If we use this definition, then all members of the first generation [F1] will be heterozygous at that locus. It is evident that this is not the way we use the filial system in our hobby, a fact that creates a lot of misunderstandings and long discussions. The problem is that the filial system exists and we borrow some of the definitions from it while we introduce others or use it in a different way when we describe a certain brood. For Mendel it makes no difference where the parents originated from (the wild, tanks, inbred etc.) or what characteristics they carried as long as they are homozygous for a specific trait."
Ah, I see what partly causes this discussion. There's F1 for a trait, and people use it for a generation of a population. Technically, for Mendel, it's the first though...
Requiring "Pure lines" before calling it F1 is taking it a little extreme as it implies it's throughbred for literally all traits rather than those that the breeder wants to breed into a cross. So a cross can be F1 for certain traits, but at the same time not be a true F1 hybrid for all it's traits. Hence, we sometimes use "true F1" to stress what we are talking about.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
And again, not just a stoner term, just an example:
"True F1 hybrids were obtained using an embryo rescue procedure"
http://sunflowernsa.com/research/research-workshop/documents/Hu_Tricotyledonous_05.pdf
Why look for a true F1? Because as I mentioned in my first reply: Crossing those homozygous strains is what creating an F1 hybrid is all about. An F1 is heterozygous for the traits that matter. The more fancy term for hybrid vigor is Heterosis, "In proposing the term heterosis to replace the older term heterozygosis, G.H. Shull aimed to avoid limiting the term to the effects that can be explained by heterozygosity [which is what an F1 has] in Mendelian inheritance".
"True F1 hybrids were obtained using an embryo rescue procedure"
http://sunflowernsa.com/research/research-workshop/documents/Hu_Tricotyledonous_05.pdf
Why look for a true F1? Because as I mentioned in my first reply: Crossing those homozygous strains is what creating an F1 hybrid is all about. An F1 is heterozygous for the traits that matter. The more fancy term for hybrid vigor is Heterosis, "In proposing the term heterosis to replace the older term heterozygosis, G.H. Shull aimed to avoid limiting the term to the effects that can be explained by heterozygosity [which is what an F1 has] in Mendelian inheritance".
That's F2. Not necessarily a true F2