...All Things Vero...

[AquariusPanta]

Yeah, i read that, just want some pure shot. I have seen complete CXA grows, but all who grows with VERO, they never post late pictures or final yield, they've gone walking or smth...
That is like mystery, man...
You don't know how hard it is to decide

How you get ahold of one of my personal photos...?

I'd advise 3500K for seed to flower but I did manage to vegetate my lady with a BlackStar 240W Flower, while introducing the 4000Ks around flower. So it is possible to vegetate with more reds than blue.

 

[uzerneims]

Like how much blue/red and LER is in 20w 2700k CFL bulb?
I have grown A-Z w/ 2700k CFL's, everything was fine.
I think i will go for 3000k, and by time i will just buy some chinese led's and will make my:
•flower initatior
•few blue bars, maybe red's too

But let's for more opinions, as i seen at @stardustsailor thread - Jade, he is using 3000k all round.

 

[churchhaze]

Yeah, posting pictures of lights is one thing. Putting up grow journals and results pictures is another. You've gotta hand it to the people with more comprehensive journals showing us what their lights can do.

 

[AquariusPanta]

Like how much blue/red and LER is in 20w 2700k CFL bulb?
I have grown A-Z w/ 2700k CFL's, everything was fine.
I think i will go for 3000k, and by time i will just buy some chinese led's and will make my:
•flower initatior
•few blue bars, maybe red's too

But let's for more opinions, as i seen at @stardustsailor thread - Jade, he is using 3000k all round.

Ideally, you would have a whole assortment of lights that ranged with different CRI's (80's and 90's) and CCT's (2700K - 5000K) but realistically, very few people have the resources or time to make that a reality.

I'm only guessing that 3500K is the better choice out of the bunch, I have no proof, just reason based off of what I've seen with the data sheets.

I think the 3000K will serve you good, and I await the results!

Yeah, posting pictures of lights is one thing. Putting up grow journals and results pictures is another. You've gotta hand it to the people with more comprehensive journals showing us what their lights can do.

I totally agree Churchey; I'm a noob in the game of COBs compared to some of you. I do lack those journals and outcome pictures (for now, wait around another month or so ). But I do have some sense of what science were dealing with; this isn't my first rodeo with LEDs and I've got a few seasons of growing under my belt in different scenarios, locations, etc.

You've got to ask yourself too whether or not this year's model will have the same impact as last year's and if not (even with the slightest adjustment) then do those who grew with last year's model necessarily know anything more about this year's model if they haven't completed a full circle with it? Are they not as experienced with the new model as the person who didn't grow with last year's model but are trying this year's?

And I welcome all who have knowledge and experience to share .

 

[SupraSPL]

I agree the Vero has really solidified its place as a phenomenal DIY growing lamp, especially for builds that emphasize up front cost, great commercial lamp opportunity. I love the fact that it goes slightly deeper into the red spectrum. That said, the CXA still has the upper hand at lower current levels. I run the CXA3070 3000K at 800mA (49.4% typical) and the CXA3590 5000K vegging lamps at 270mA (62% typical). The Vero cannot offer us this kind of performance and I really appreciate the lowest heat output possible in the grow space.

Also, the Vero has a wide range of performance from minimum to typical. That is partially how they keep costs down. Imagine buying a Corvette with no guarantee of which engine it might have? Id much rather pay more to know what I am buying.

Small details :
1)CXA3070 : 1 mm thick Ceramic case. Breaks apart,cracks,chips almost as easy as an eggshell ..
(Come to 'think' about it ..An eggshell of 1 mm thickness ,probably would 've been more tough ,than the CXA3070 ... )
Vero29 : Copper case ,'riveted' in polymer outer 'disc shaped ' case.Robust enough construction.

So far I have broken 1 CXA out of 230 I have handled. It broke because I was trying to remove it from the heatsink surface incorrectly. I was prying to break it free, but you have to twist it. Once I learned that no more broken COBs and I have removed dozens. Even though it is cracked, it still works . Also, the ceramic package does have its benefits and trade offs. Compare the XPE red vs XPE2 red. The XPE2 switched to ceramic and achieved a much better current droop but increased Vf. This stuff is above my head.

2)CXA3070 :Needs and array holder and two screws,to be correctly installed...
Vero29 : Needs 4x screws ,to be correctly installed..

I dont use COB holders and even with high current (2.2A), I measured only 2% decrease in light output from a cold start to fully warmed up (CXA3070 3000K Z4 bin mounted onto Arctic Alpine 11). I reduced the fan from 12V to 5V and the total light loss was only 3%. I conclude, there is nothing sub optimal about the thermal path and there are no worries about uneven pressure.

I did not screw in my Vero 18 either, simply mounted with a layer of PK3 and kapton tape. This particular Vero is very inefficient at 2.2A (18.3%) because it is 97 CRI so I thought it would be a good test. It is a testament to the awesomeness of the Vero package. I cranked 2.2A through it and measured a decrease of only 6%. I reduced the fan to 5V and the total light loss was 12.5%.

I conclude that we do not need COB holders, which may help make DIY more accessible to some growers. I also conclude that with aggressive cooling, we can run at very low junction temps even with higher currents.

3)CXA3070 :Needs very good work on thermal design and built.Otherwise COBs suffers and will 'die' sooner ...
Vero29 :Needs a flat & smooth heatsink ,a fan and a tad of TIM .....
With very good work on thermal design and built,Vero29 gets the flu at 1.4 A ...

The junction temps DIYers run growing lamps at are so low the COBs will never burn out. They may not even suffer any lumen depreciation whatsoever. I believe Mr Flux suggested that we may even see lumen appreciation?

I had a few warm white XTEs that I ran completely disconnected from their heatsinks. They were on 10mm stars and running at 700mA. Some of them were left this way for months and not a single one burned out. I put them in a bag labeled "scorched" so I could analyze their output later. A testament to the toughness of Cree LEDs (and Bridgelux I expect).

4)CXA3070: Next to this array in rarity ,is the fungus eating , siberian crocodile .
Oh no-no-no ..This particular reptile species is third in row,actually ...
Second thing n rarity,comes the Ideal array holder for the CXA3070 ...
Vero29 : Soon at your local 7-11 .. (ok ,that was way much...).
Easy to find & obtain.Simple as that.
A bit of web search and you 'll easily trace it ,in US,Canada ,Asia,Oceania & Europe...
Almost always ,on stock.

I agree with this, I love the availability of the Veros!

 

[DonPetro]

So am i better off running a Vero 18 at its typical 1.05a or at 700ma? I plan to make a small fixture with two cobs for a small cab.

 

[SupraSPL]

Many good options

 

[guod]

Something is wrong here!

I dont use COB holders and even with high current (2.2A),
I measured only 2% decrease in light output from a cold start to fully warmed up (CXA3070 3000K Z4 bin mounted onto Arctic Alpine 11).

Lets say our Tj starts at 25°C.
a 2% loss in light output means our Tj will increase at 10°C. - Green bars -
a Tj of 36°C at 2.2A...???

I reduced the fan from 12V to 5V and the total light loss was only 3%. I conclude, there is nothing sub optimal about the thermal path and there are no worries about uneven pressure.
I cranked 2.2A through it and measured a decrease of only 6%. I reduced the fan to 5V and the total light loss was 12.5%.

and at 10% loss in radiation, we are talking about 60°C .- blue -

 

[SupraSPL]

I agree, it doesn't seem to add up when you consider the thermal resistance of the package. BUT, that is what I observed, it is repeatable and the Vf measurements back it up. From the test:

With fan at 12V, Vf fell by only .185V and flux decreased by 2%. The Tj that this implies (39.5C) is amazing considering the COB is dissipating 89W (59W heat). Either the thermal coefficient I am using is wrong (.01V/C), the CXA3070 package and thermal interface has a much better total thermal resistance that I suspected(.313C/W) or the surplus of cooling power from the Arctic Alpine 11 somehow makes up for the resistance inside the package? With the fan running at 5V I observed a 3% total decrease in light.

Last night I I tested a CXA3070 3000K Z4 driven at 1.4A, mounted on a small CPU cooler with fan running at 12V. I measured a 1.25% decrease from the light meter from cold (22C ambient) to thermally stable. I was very careful not to move the COB or the light meter and I was extremely careful to make sure the driver output was the same (1.453A) in both tests. Based on this test, there should be virtually no decrease in light output from a CXA3070 AB driven at 800mA. I will try that test next. I will also solder a thermocouple to the TC measurement point to see if that backs up the results.

Another possible explanation is that the Tj increase from internal thermal resistance is instantaneous when power is applied. If that were the case, my voltmeter and light meter would miss the change but the Tc measurement should reveal it.

 

[AquariusPanta]

So am i better off running a Vero 18 at its typical 1.05a or at 700ma? I plan to make a small fixture with two cobs for a small cab.

I run my pair at ~1050mA and for a single lady, with the addition of a 240W BlackStar V2 Flower model.

In your case, 700mA would be more efficient and would result in a higher COB longevity and a slightly cheaper electric bill each month, with less heat and light being consumed.

More and more, I start to find the start up cost irrelevant. Unless your a die hard fan of efficiency (insert name), then your most likely going to run the COBs at 700mA or higher, meaning your trying to find the middle ground of your COBs potential and minimizing heat output.

All I know is that in five years, when COB technology is even better and we're seeing efficiencies nearing 75% at high currents, these products will be obsolete and won't be worth keeping, let alone using. Just check out how much of a difference the Vero series made the past year between the early 2014 model and the later and now present 2014 model (5% difference/boost in some cases).

 

[churchhaze]

If technology progresses at this rate for just a few more years, we'll surely have 101% efficient emitters.

For every 100W you put in, 101W will come out.

 

[AquariusPanta]

If technology progresses at this rate for just a few more years, we'll surely have 101% efficient emitters.

For every 100W you put in, 101W will come out.

I'd buy into THAT technology, although would be fine with just 100% as the extra 1% would create suspicion.

Who know's, maybe I'm looking at this topic in a overly simplistic way and should be slapped across the melon by Churchy or Supra .

 

[Dloomis514]

He who slaps last, slaps best.

 

[AquariusPanta]

He who slaps last, slaps best.

 

[Scornfulheal]

Going along with DonPetro, I am looking at a small cab grow as well.

The space is roughly 2'x1'x4' and will be scrogged to keep the canopy as low as possible.

I am doing seed to harvest in this 2 sqft space and was originally looking at 2x CXA3070 3000k Z4's running at 800-1050 mA for flowering, one per square foot. I would then probably build a separate seed and veg light of the smaller cree 10w chips like XM-L2 or XP-L.

Would I be better off going with Vero's for the whole duration? I know nothing about Veros and what spectrum/wattage I would get for my space, so a little direction would be appreciated.

I am on budget so reducing startup cost could be appreciated. However it's all for personal use so quality and yield are key factors as well.

 

[AquariusPanta]

Going along with DonPetro, I am looking at a small cab grow as well.

The space is roughly 2'x1'x4' and will be scrogged to keep the canopy as low as possible.

I am doing seed to harvest in this 2 sqft space and was originally looking at 2x CXA3070 3000k Z4's running at 800-1050 mA for flowering, one per square foot. I would then probably build a separate seed and veg light of the smaller cree 10w chips like XM-L2 or XP-L.

Would I be better off going with Vero's for the whole duration? I know nothing about Veros and what spectrum/wattage I would get for my space, so a little direction would be appreciated.

I am on budget so reducing startup cost could be appreciated. However it's all for personal use so quality and yield are key factors as well.

I'm not entirely sure on how the Z4 bin for the CXA3070 compare with the Z2(lowest quality) or AB(highest quality) but I do know that the new Vero 29 efficiently outperforms the Z2 bin from currents of 700mA and up. Without considering efficiency, 2x Vero 18's (~$13 per) beats a single Vero 29 (~$30 per), as you would get more light (and consequently heat) out of the choice. I include this because you mentioned being a budget and having small growing dimensions.

Doing the numbers, 2x Vero 18's (3000K, 80 CRI) @700mA would give around 16W of light, while 1x Vero 29 (3000K, 80 CRI) @ 700mA would give around 10W of light.
I did this by comparing efficiencies with the excel spreadsheet SupraSPL shared mid-way up on this page.

I'd stick with the Vero series if your on a budget and are growing small.

 

[bicit]

Hmm I wonder if there is someplace with a spectroradiometer we could send a pair of 'representative' designs to to be properly tested. To clear up the data sheets since there seems to be some minor inconsistencies.

 

[SomeGuy]

Someone asked what my final yield was . I will go post it in the other thread too. But...

2x4 tent.
500w
268grams

about 1/2g per watt.

It should be noted that I was beyond the point of diminishing returns as far as w per sq ft. I have put these same three bars in a 4x4 tent now. (twice the space) and will see if I can double my yield number with the same amount of photon.

 

[Scornfulheal]

I'm not entirely sure on how the Z4 bin for the CXA3070 compare with the Z2(lowest quality) or AB(highest quality) but I do know that the new Vero 29 efficiently outperforms the Z2 bin from currents of 700mA and up. Without considering efficiency, 2x Vero 18's (~$13 per) beats a single Vero 29 (~$30 per), as you would get more light (and consequently heat) out of the choice. I include this because you mentioned being a budget and having small growing dimensions.

Doing the numbers, 2x Vero 18's (3000K, 80 CRI) @700mA would give around 16W of light, while 1x Vero 29 (3000K, 80 CRI) @ 700mA would give around 10W of light.
I did this by comparing efficiencies with the excel spreadsheet SupraSPL shared mid-way up on this page.

I'd stick with the Vero series if your on a budget and are growing small.

Exactly what I was asking for thank you!

So do you suggest just using the same Vero 3000k lights the entire seed - > harvest grow? I would still shoot for ~35w/sqft right (flower)?

 

[Scornfulheal]

One more question, do you recommend using the 700 mA rating you gave as an example? Or should I run the Vero 18s harder at 1050 mA+?