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nomofatum

Well-Known Member
It would be the best way to rank it. It takes some variables out and levels the field...closer to a one size fits all with g/w.
With that sau veg time would be a key variable to include.

With all the basic setup variable included then ranked by g/w I think is a good place to start.
I disagree on g/w. Why is that a top priority? I would prefer to sort on g/sqft and separate short box grows from regular grows.

I'm looking for the most weed from my space, not the most weed per electron.

And do this for all lighting options together in one place.

I swear the more I talk about this the more I want to make an Android app for it.
 
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Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
I disagree on g/w. Why is that a top priority? I would prefer to sort on g/sqft and separate short box grows from regular grows.

I'm looking for the most weed from my space, not the most weed per electron.

And do this for all lighting options together in one place.

I swear the more I talk about this the more I want to make an Android app for it.
We are not reinventing the wheel. Just making it easy or people to determine success. And g/w is the most widely known/accepted concept. If you knew about me you would know I am a g/kWh guy...but this is trying to be a substitute for some one knowing nothing about leds, just how to grow, to click on and see what is work by what ever standards the feel fits them. But a g/w would rank it.

But hey...what do I know after all.

And I never said it was top priority. Just how it's ranked. The cumulative of the few other variable makes it complete
 

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
If we had a wiki that could be done by the community. Plus a "How to choose an LED" page illustrating the tradeoffs of various options. I'm sure it would be contentious with varying opinions. But, at least the current consensus would be clear instead of reading a 2300 pages of conversation to try figure out what constitutes consensus. (A wiki page's "Talk" page serves as background. Long-standing members can be appointed wiki mods to settle disputes. Hopefully balanced individuals who can find a way to accommodate both sides.).

It's a different kind of collaboration. Not conversation, but encyclopedic.
There doesn't need to be any post by anyone but the creator. One single post that is a list of completed grows that continually gets edited/amended. And only ine resin to add to it...no wiki editing for validity purposes.
That way no opinions or bullshit...strictly results
 

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
We are not reinventing the wheel. Just making it easy or people to determine success. And g/w is the most widely known/accepted concept. If you knew about me you would know I am a g/kWh guy...but this is trying to be a substitute for some one knowing nothing about leds, just how to grow, to click on and see what is work by what ever standards the feel fits them. But a g/w would rank it.

But hey...what do I know after all.

And I never said it was top priority. Just how it's ranked. The cumulative of the few other variable makes it complete
It would be illogical to order by something other than your top priority or a composite of your priorities. That is how you bury the best options. I want to see the one that produced the most bud per sqft on top, because I want as much bud as I can get from my space. I can't see many people saying they want to save a few bucks on electricity to get less bud.

I'm curious why watts is more important than sqft to you? If you have a real reason I see no reason not to use both sort orders.
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
One single post that is a list of completed grows that continually gets edited/amended.
You guys are talking about different sort orders. That can't be done on a forum (conversation) post. A wiki template does that nicely. I can imagine sorting by light brand, strain, etc. It doesn't have to be strictly about lights.

A wiki template can also narrow the possible data to only what the community feels is necessary. Not free-form, but structured data. Fields.

The nice thing about a wiki is that such a template could link the forum user's name to their "Talk" page. It could link to the light's wiki page where pros and cons can be documented. It's a network of encyclopedic information. Not a freeform page one person edits (among dozens of "stickies," which are attempts to create topical structure within thousands of conversations).

Forums are great for talking as we are now. But, to distill information (conclusions) from these conversations into easily-located topics, wikis excel. A wiki topic can link back to a conversation for further detail, substantiation, etc. Conversations can reference a wiki topic (instead of talking about the same thing over and over again. Like "there is no such thing as calmag, it's ca or mg." Instead, you just post a link to the wiki's deficiencies section about ca and mg defs, where someone could have added "calmag is often overused to treat one deficiency when another doesn't exist." Done. Knowledge centralized and referential.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I disagree on g/w. Why is that a top priority? I would prefer to sort on g/sqft and separate short box grows from regular grows.

I'm looking for the most weed from my space, not the most weed per electron.

And do this for all lighting options together in one place.

I swear the more I talk about this the more I want to make an Android app for it.
Also from nomfatum : "I'm curious why watts is more important than sqft to you? If you have a real reason I see no reason not to use both sort orders"

Let me give it a try and then I'm going to leave this thread altogether. While I don't have experience in growing, I do have experience in designing and developing systems. Choosing the right metrics for a design is critical and often determines the success or failure of a project. By relating bud mass to input watts, g/W measures how well a grow-system converts energy to useful radiation regardless of the wavelength of light. Want to grow with blue light? Want to grow with a strain from outer Mongolia? Want to use gummy bears as a nutrient? All can be compared to using the same metric -- g/W -- and one only needs to measure yield and energy input. This metric is simple and useful because it is applicable to a range of input variables. Its not the only variable to consider for a grow system but it is important.

In an analogy, the muscle cars of the 60's went fast and had high acceleration. People bought them because they could go from 0 to 60 (and a lot more) very quickly. They also were inefficient in converting energy into motion as shown by their very low gas mileage for the number of passengers. In order to inefficiently produce high acceleration, the engines were very heavy and they had heat management issues. While they were a blast to ride in, they were not very reliable, they were expensive to maintain, passed everything on the road except a gas station and the extra weight made them unsafe at high speed and on winding roads. The Japanese placed a high value on energy efficiency in producing a good ride and they eventually ate Detroit's lunch. Today, Japanese cars sell at a premium price because a large proportion of people have become aware that in the long term, their satisfaction from the purchase will be higher and the overall cost of ownership will be lower. Not everybody understands this and they usually buy cheaper cars, which don't last as long and have higher overall cost of ownership. This is not to say that Detroit hasn't caught up to the Japanese but they did lose their edge by focusing on the wrong values.

Low grams per watt means that a lot of energy is being wasted in the production of bud. Waste can be in the form of heat or tall plants with few buds. The wasted energy has to go somewhere and scaling the inefficient system up to produce more smoke also produces more headaches. Waste must be dealt with in one manner or another. Dealing with waste usually requires additional energy, which drives efficiency further down and drives costs up. This applies to the issue with using g/sqft as a metric. A system that is an energy hog and wastefully produces a lot of bud is more costly to operate than an efficient system in the same area. Which system would you rather have?.

By minimizing waste (maximizing g/W), a lot of problems go away and the grower can more easily scale their system up to increase their yield. Because fewer factors must be considered for higher-efficiency systems, scaling a system down while maintaining quality is also easier . Of course, the purchase price of the system matters. Efficiency is an important factor to consider once the budget is met.

The metric you propose, g/sqft is to growing as "time from 0 to 60" is to cars. Its an important value to be considered when designing a system but its not the best metric to compare different systems.

OK, that's my two cents. I don't have the patience that others have. I'm going to leave this thread now.
 

az2000

Well-Known Member
I quoted ya in hopes you might see this before it ends. Found a area 51 xgs 190 for $350 shipped.
Looks like you didn't get it. Auction ended with no bids. If you want it, I'd contact the seller and make an offer. But, don't buy it outside the eBay process. If he agrees to your offer, require him to put back up for auction with a "buy it now" or "make offer" option.

I think a < year-old XGS should be worth $300 delivered. Later in 2015 there should be an upgrade to the new 10w diodes. It wouldn't matter much if these diodes are used. The fact that nobody jumped at 350 works in your favor.
 

az2000

Well-Known Member
By minimizing waste (maximizing g/W), a lot of problems go away and the grower can more easily scale their system up to increase their yield.
I think g/sq ft. would be more important to someone living in a space-starved location like Tokyo or New York City. Where the price of real estate is more expensive than electricity.

Is there a way to create an efficiency factor from both numbers? One time I got 180g from 4 sq ft. That sounded good until you realize it was only 0.7g/watt. Not long ago I got 90g with 85w. That sounded good until you realized it was in the same 4 sq ft. :)

Seems there should be some way to reflect both in a single score. (Not that either specific metric shouldn't be visible too. But, a single score as the fast answer to how the watts were used, diminishing returns of high watts, wasted space of low watts.).
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I think g/sq ft. would be more important to someone living in a space-starved location like Tokyo or New York City. Where the price of real estate is more expensive than electricity.

Is there a way to create an efficiency factor from both numbers? One time I got 180g from 4 sq ft. That sounded good until you realize it was only 0.7g/watt. Not long ago I got 90g with 85w. That sounded good until you realized it was in the same 4 sq ft.

Seems there should be some way to reflect both in a single score. (Not that either specific metric shouldn't be visible too. But, a single score as the fast answer to how the watts were used, diminishing returns of high watts, wasted space of low watts.).
dangit, az, I said that I would leave but I've grown to respect your patience while reading this thread. You are a tough one but also very good. And I want to pay my respect to you.

two more cents from a proto-noobian: Space is a design constraint that must be considered when designing a system as is the amount of bud that the designer must produce to meet a need. Power and heating availability are also constraints and there are many others. It doesn't really matter if an inefficient system is implemented or if an efficient system is implemented if the system fits these constraints within a given cost goal -- including total cost of ownership. That said, when comparing systems and asking "which system consistently meets needs?", the highly efficient system is probably going to be the better one. I think what you saw from your 180g/sq ft grow at 0.7 g/W was that there was room to improve. Doesn't mean you had a bad result. I've read others -- who have credibility by posting their grows and their results -- claim that quality goes up with g/W. So maybe there was room improve dankness as well as mass of bud. But the only place that anybody can be happy is between their ears. If your bud made you happy then that's all that matters.

Trying to make a universal metric like : g/sqft/hour/watt/people time/nutrient$/nookie violates the "keep it simple" principle. For me, I prefer KISS. g/W is simple and a good way to compare different systems but should not be an absolute goal. I can see the possibility of a design optimization program to help choose design variables within a system of constraints and desired outcomes and az2000 has said as much in early postings on this thread. That sounds like work to me and I just want to have fun.:)

I feel foolish posting about growing when I haven't even cracked a seed. I'm working on designing my system and am in the early stages of putting my grow room together. It will come together eventually and I'll be glad to share what I did and my -- probably poor -- results when I do. We all gotta start somewhere. I really do appreciate the depth of knowledge that can be found crawling around this forum.

And Merry Christmas to you too, Medicinehuman:hump:
 

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
I think g/sq ft. would be more important to someone living in a space-starved location like Tokyo or New York City. Where the price of real estate is more expensive than electricity.

Is there a way to create an efficiency factor from both numbers? One time I got 180g from 4 sq ft. That sounded good until you realize it was only 0.7g/watt. Not long ago I got 90g with 85w. That sounded good until you realized it was in the same 4 sq ft. :)

Seems there should be some way to reflect both in a single score. (Not that either specific metric shouldn't be visible too. But, a single score as the fast answer to how the watts were used, diminishing returns of high watts, wasted space of low watts.).
Most of the folks growing on this site are growing in a small part of their home, that space is limited. When you limit your space it's all about making the most of that space. For a larger scale grow op, I see the grams/watts being more important than SQFT because a standard home won't be setup for enough electrical to light the entire place for growing, thus making you able to light more SQFT and get more bud within your power limit. Also at larger scales detection due to your power costs goes way up so keeping it down becomes a higher priority. For the average member of this site, getting the most they can from their space is top priority.
 

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
Please show me where I said that one metric should be used...I listed a bunch and SAID THEY ALL SHOULD BE INCLUDED. But g/w is the best ranking for LIGHTING. Its about energy into the system vs production out.

When you say to your buddy..."hey, what do you yield?" Hs response is "about 2lbs a light"...does watts or sqft come to your mind???

Watts are what you pay for when debating a lighting system...specially one that is trying to save against the king...HPS.

I do not truly subscribe to g/w...I am into g/kwh as the real way to calculate input to output because veg is included and as well as length of photoperiod.

g/w/sqft is a very possible figure...but when someone new to this comes here to find answers...what will they think about it??...some little decimal number. Once again not reinventing the wheel here.

I will not be the one starting this thread or concept if it ever happens. I will just keep growing and my results will be full document as always.
 

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
When you say to your buddy..."hey, what do you yield?" Hs response is "about 2lbs a light"...does watts or sqft come to your mind???
My first thought would be what kind of light, including watts if you put it that way.

If you put it this way though things are different.

When you say to your buddy..."hey, what do you yield?" His response is "about 2lbs"...does watts or sqft come to your mind???

Then I think how big a space, first question in my mind.

Your g/w vs g/kwh is good. g/sqft/days would be ideal from my perspective for us with limited space. g/w/days or g/kwh would be ideal for those without space limitations.
 
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Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
My first thought would be what kind of light, including watts if you put it that way.

If you put it this way though things are different.

When you say to your buddy..."hey, what do you yield?" His response is "about 2lbs"...does watts or sqft come to your mind???

Then I think how big a space, first question in my mind.
Lets think about how this really goes down...
Guy says... dude my light is killing it...
You say what are you yielding?...
He says about 2 lbs...
You say holy shit... Off _____ ????
Fill in the blank.



You just touched on it in you post about big vs small...when cost and production really matter...G/W.
 

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
You just touched on it in you post about big vs small...when cost and production really matter...G/W.
You realize the average grow on this site is less than 10 sqft right? For the most part we are talking about a closet or a small spare room being used for either extra cash or personal bud. We aren't talking about recommendations for a person to go commercial with. In my case I have a pantry I never used, so I converted it into a grow room.

I would give totally different recommendations to a guy trying to grow as much bud as possible in his house than a guy trying to grow as much bud as possible in his closet. To maximize profit in one case watts are meaningless, in the other they are imperative.
 

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
1000 closet growers across the county...
OR
One 502 facility....
That plans to expand to 3 in 12months...and then tells everyone in the state what they are doing.
Where is the future for LED's and more importantly the companies making them??? Closest are not the future...they are the past.
I'm interested where you get your average grow figure....seems pulled from somewhere. If it is true...then there is a nice micro grow sub forum for them. Otherwise...leds(and others) capabilities should not be restricted.
Compare visitors to the site vs members...members are not the only ones who read this shit. Not every one likes to show their house/garage/shed/barn/warehouse/treehouse....but they still use the internet when looking things up.

EDIT:
You should not have to make a huge sacrifice in g/w to maximize a space...they go hand in hand 90% of the time.
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
Seems there should be some way to reflect both in a single score.
This seems to work:

actual grams per sq. ft / {target for your class of lamp} = g/sq ft. *factor*

actual grams per watt / actual watts = g/w *actual*

g/sq ft. *factor* / g/w = efficiency factor

If you had high output per sq ft, you'd have a > 1 *factor*. If you had a low g/w, it would cancel out that effect. Likewise, a high g/w and low output per sq. ft would cancel each other out.

Wouldn't that be an "at a glance" metric for both items? The closer you are to 1 the better. Of course, over 1 is good too.

The challenge would be to develop "target for your class of lamp." Like, efficient LEDs are said to do best at 30-35w/sq ft. T5HO at 40 w/sq ft. Inefficient LED: 45 w/sq ft? HID, 50?

If that variable (or for the COB guys, they probably know the exact optimal w/sq ft down to the 2nd decimal) could be standardized, those two measurements would be a relative score.

(Let's accept that the "secret sauce" lights that don't publish any details about their lights, but charge prices like the high-efficiency lights, let's accept that their owners simply don't care about metrics. This metric isn't for them. Not trying to be snide, too much. But, that's what it boils down to.).

I'm not good at math though. There's probably something wrong with it.
 

keysareme

Well-Known Member
Looks like you didn't get it. Auction ended with no bids. If you want it, I'd contact the seller and make an offer. But, don't buy it outside the eBay process. If he agrees to your offer, require him to put back up for auction with a "buy it now" or "make offer" option.

I think a < year-old XGS should be worth $300 delivered. Later in 2015 there should be an upgrade to the new 10w diodes. It wouldn't matter much if these diodes are used. The fact that nobody jumped at 350 works in your favor.
Hey man thanks, I value what you've said, it's good insight for me to know what it is worth, I have sent a message offering $300 shipped, so thank you I will update.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
.

g/w/sqft is a very possible figure...but when someone new to this comes here to find answers...what will they think about it??...some little decimal number. Once again not reinventing the wheel here.
I have a small vineyard and have read about biodynamic vineyard management. Some ideas are good. One idea that I came across is that the couple that own the vineyard should have sex in it. Liters per nookie is how I would measure the effect. :P Sadly my wife is not ready to experiment with this metric.

but I digress...
 

Heavy Consumer

Well-Known Member
I have a small vineyard and have read about biodynamic vineyard management. Some ideas are good. One idea that I came across is that the couple that own the vineyard should have sex in it. Liters per nookie is how I would measure the effect. :P Sadly my wife is not ready to experiment with this metric.

but I digress...
The value of that metric would depend entirely on how sexy one's wife were.
 
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