Neoliberal Economics is DEAD

god1

Well-Known Member
40 hours per week = food and shelter (plus consumables related to employment)...That's a survival wage.
Add 25% to that to cover a 10% savings rate and 10% "entertainment"...now it's a living wage.

How does that sound for a starting point?


It gets funded the same way everything else does at the Federal level...by being spent into existence.

in case you're wondering.
x +0.25x = 1.25x
10% * 1.25x = 0.125x
0.125x * 2 = .25x = 20% of 1.25x

You never addressed the issue of "who qualifies", ie:

Does getting up in the morning, taking a "shit", putting on some cloths and staring at the sky for 40 hrs a week get you what a "skilled craftsman" makes?

How does skill level factor into this? Are any skills required at all?

What you proposed is a fixed offset, based on nothing but income level; in a capitalistic system, the employer will jack up the service cost to compensate for the increase in labor cost? That will eventually become a pass through to the bottom end wage earners.

How do you control that? Without control everything just resets at a higher level.

Now if you modify the economic system through legislation, ie limit the employer's ability to leverage labor costs for increase in compensation in some way, you've changed the economic structure of country.

Is that what you're proposing ?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
You never addressed the issue of "who qualifies", ie:

Does getting up in the morning, taking a "shit", putting on some cloths and staring at the sky for 40 hrs a week get you what a "skilled craftsman" makes?

How does skill level factor into this? Are any skills required at all?

What you proposed is a fixed offset, based on nothing but income level; in a capitalistic system, the employer will jack up the service cost to compensate for the increase in labor cost? That will eventually become a pass through to the bottom end wage earners.

How do you control that? Without control everything just resets at a higher level.

Now if you modify the economic system through legislation, ie limit the employer's ability to leverage labor costs for increase in compensation in some way, you've changed the economic structure of country.

Is that what you're proposing ?
Only if everyone makes minimum wage like you do, idiot.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
How does skill level factor into this? Are any skills required at all?
UBI is independent of personal earned income. Everyone gets it so long as they meet the requirements. If you want to booze it up or be a lazy fuck and sleep in till 4pm every day, be my guest, it'll still be a lot cheaper to pay for as a tax paying citizen than having that same guy be homeless and go through the system we have now. Fact. If you want to work as you do now and earn more than the UBI provides, be my guest! Nobody will stop you. So basically you have what we have now, just without the poverty and homelessness..

Seriously, tough decision... We have the money to do this, the problem is how that money is currently allocated. Not having the money is not a valid argument.
 

god1

Well-Known Member
UBI is independent of personal earned income. Everyone gets it so long as they meet the requirements. If you want to booze it up or be a lazy fuck and sleep in till 4pm every day, be my guest, it'll still be a lot cheaper to pay for as a tax paying citizen than having that same guy be homeless and go through the system we have now. Fact. If you want to work as you do now and earn more than the UBI provides, be my guest! Nobody will stop you. So basically you have what we have now, just without the poverty and homelessness..

Seriously, tough decision... We have the money to do this, the problem is how that money is currently allocated. Not having the money is not a valid argument.

You have to fundamentally convert our economic system. You can't accomplish what you speak of without it.

Pad, I mentioned this in the other thread; there's this Prof by the name of Richard Wolff. Interesting guy. He talks about the death of "capitalism", ( I don't recall the exact title of his thesis/lecture), and the conversion of our economic system to "socialism".

Interesting guy, good speaker. If you haven't already, give the guy a listen - look him up. What I like about him is he's up front about his objective, why he thinks it needs to done and how he believes it should be implemented.

good luck guys.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Where's this coming from "t"? I thought you wanted to have a civil conversation? If the answer is no, I can understand.
I do- but you're a parrot. You clearly aren't thinking about what you say, so it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation. Your discussion points are silly; first, only a tiny fraction of the work force makes minimum. Second, if people act as you suggest on the job, the employer still has every right to fire them- but you persist anyway. Want a cracker?

Why don't you look at corporate welfare? Because Faux News didn't tell you to?

Why don't you examine the flaws of free trade laws that accelerate the race to the bottom for wages- and all but celebrate worker exploitation and abuse in the name of low wages and high profits?

That's right- because Faux News and Bill Orally (an 'entertained', not an economist, remember) didn't tell you to.
 

god1

Well-Known Member
I do- but you're a parrot. You clearly aren't thinking about what you say, so it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation. Your discussion points are silly; first, only a tiny fraction of the work force makes minimum. Second, if people act as you suggest on the job, the employer still has every right to fire them- but you persist anyway. Want a cracker?

Why don't you look at corporate welfare? Because Faux News didn't tell you to?

Why don't you examine the flaws of free trade laws that accelerate the race to the bottom for wages- and all but celebrate worker exploitation and abuse in the name of low wages and high profits?

That's right- because Faux News and Bill Orally (an 'entertained', not an economist, remember) didn't tell you to.

What are you, a Bucky puppet? What's with you guys and Fox news? Just for the record, I rarely watch television and when I do, it's not to watch O'rly.

You write as if you either didn't understand the underlying point I've been making or you haven't read the material. This is your thread, your topic. I've responded to your stuff in a straight forward and the most simplistic method as I could.

The bottom line is, you can complain all you want about corporate welfare; yap about all the "flaws" in the current system, but when it gets right down to it, you require a methodology to affect change.

So it's a simple question, how do you implement what ever it is you're talking about? First you have to specify and state an "objective", then come up with a "plan of action", then describe some metric by which you can use to "evaluate" your results against the "objective".

You're last post is just a rambling. Tie the shit together. Look, I made the assumption that you were old enough to carry on a factual debate, I apologize.

Go have a listen to Richard Wolff, I think you might enjoy him. He shares your same concerns, but he's a man with a plan. You might learn something.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
You have to fundamentally convert our economic system. You can't accomplish what you speak of without it.

Pad, I mentioned this in the other thread; there's this Prof by the name of Richard Wolff. Interesting guy. He talks about the death of "capitalism", ( I don't recall the exact title of his thesis/lecture), and the conversion of our economic system to "socialism".

Interesting guy, good speaker. If you haven't already, give the guy a listen - look him up. What I like about him is he's up front about his objective, why he thinks it needs to done and how he believes it should be implemented.

good luck guys.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/richard-wolff-on-capitalism.855448/

Interesting guy indeed
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I do- but you're a parrot. You clearly aren't thinking about what you say, so it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation. Your discussion points are silly; first, only a tiny fraction of the work force makes minimum. Second, if people act as you suggest on the job, the employer still has every right to fire them- but you persist anyway. Want a cracker?

Why don't you look at corporate welfare? Because Faux News didn't tell you to?

Why don't you examine the flaws of free trade laws that accelerate the race to the bottom for wages- and all but celebrate worker exploitation and abuse in the name of low wages and high profits?

That's right- because Faux News and Bill Orally (an 'entertained', not an economist, remember) didn't tell you to.
If government created and continues to sponsor the problem - corporate welfare - wouldn't ending that be a good place to start rather than more government meddling in the affairs of private individuals ?
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
the employer will jack up the service cost to compensate for the increase in labor cost? That will eventually become a pass through to the bottom end wage earners.
you fox news bleating retards tried this talking point endlessly in the min wage debates, it fails.

we can compare BLS stats, or we can just check the cost of a big mac in denmark. $5.38 instead of $4.80, and they have some UBI and $20 an hour min wage.

checkmate, fox news spamming retards.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Where's this coming from "t"? I thought you wanted to have a civil conversation? If the answer is no, I can understand.
it's impossible to have a conversation, much less a civil one, with a retard who is simply spamming fox news talking points on a cannabis forum.

also, you are racist.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
What are you, a Bucky puppet? What's with you guys and Fox news?
one, you are obsessed with me. that's OK, your ilk often are.

two, what is with you and fox news? are you only capable of spamming their talking points? devoid of original thought? mentally retarded?

i can only guess.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
If government created and continues to sponsor the problem - corporate welfare - wouldn't ending that be a good place to start rather than more government meddling in the affairs of private individuals ?
Of course, but the idea that it's okay for someone to work full time and yet not make enough money to live above the poverty line is unacceptable. That's not 'government meddling', that's 'worker exploitation'. And, it's destructive to the economy and to the country. Or, would you prefer to support vast numbers of workers needing government assistance- another form of corporate welfare- instead?
 

god1

Well-Known Member
you are obsessed with me....

Hilarious ... you quoted me four times ... who's "obsessed"????

Fucking "tard" ... stop with the "projection" and stop reusing my older phrases.

I know it's tough being you, burdened with "white guilt", "social guilt" and a "teeny tiny" brain. Get back on your "short bus" and go home. Nobody wants a "guilt ridden raciest" with reading and comprehension issues "fouling" up the place.

If it hurts, stop watching so much Fox TV; might make you wet yourself, give you nightmares!
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Hilarious ... you quoted me four times ... who's "obsessed"????

Fucking "tard" ... stop with the "projection" and stop reusing my older phrases.

I know it's tough being you, burdened with "white guilt", "social guilt" and a "teeny tiny" brain. Get back on your "short bus" and go home. Nobody wants a "guilt ridden raciest" with reading and comprehension issues "fouling" up the place.

If it hurts, stop watching so much Fox TV; might make you wet yourself, give you nightmares!
lol, meltdown.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Of course, but the idea that it's okay for someone to work full time and yet not make enough money to live above the poverty line is unacceptable. That's not 'government meddling', that's 'worker exploitation'. And, it's destructive to the economy and to the country. Or, would you prefer to support vast numbers of workers needing government assistance- another form of corporate welfare- instead?

I appreciate your sentiment and concern for low income workers. It is a real issue for many people to simply survive and it concerns me too.

However I think you might dig deeper to the root causes. The root cause problem isn't the exploitation of workers, that is a symptom of a greater problem which creates those conditions. It is very important to distinguish between a symptom and a root cause when problem solving. Asking the creator of a problem to participate in solving the problem is usually not a good answer either. So, government "solutions" are just blather and diversions and frankly bullshit.

Intense government regulations and restrictions have created higher costs of housing, which is a big part of a lower income persons expenditures. Those costs help keep low wage earners on the treadmill or if they've given up, as millions have, on the oxymoronic thing known as "government aid" I won't now, but I can defend the argument that government has negatively affected housing costs via restrictions and helped create many problems.

Intense government regulations have also hugely diminished opportunity for small trades, crafts and other entrepeneurial (sic) expressions. Barriers to entry for starting a business and cronyism work hand in hand to keep it going for "them" and work against "you".. I could go on and on here and point out in nearly every aspect of life, social, work, monetary and banking, travel, etc. how those regulations have negatively affected the average persons ability to gain independence, create wealth and security for themselves and their families.

I could also harsh on the military industrial complex too, but I'll save that for another time.

I do not support any coercively funded "assistance" as part of a system...it's a trap in lots of ways. That is not a solution, it is a move with political motivations to keep the system churning. They throw bread in the crowds to keep the peasants from storming the castle. The good peasants are taught to hope someday they might have a "good government job" and that the wild and dangerous economy is a function of government to tame. Couldn't be further from the truth, but it perseveres.


I support truly freeing the market to unchain people and take down the monopolies on power, production and freedom. Lower costs, innovative products and services will result and people will have more chances in life to attain or follow that which is important to them as an individual.

I do not defend "crony capitalism" when I speak of a truly free market either, they are not the same thing. What exists today, crony capitalism, creates opportunity for select groups at the expense of others backed by a gun. I reject that. Crony capitalism needs government and government (in the present form) needs crony capitalism....they don't need freedom though, it scares the shit out of them.

A truly free market creates opportunity, lots of them, but it leaves out the gun and the selected and privileged people don't like that because they aren't interested in a level playing field.

Free the markets, free the people, solve the problems.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I appreciate your sentiment and concern for low income workers. It is a real issue for many people to simply survive and it concerns me too.

However I think you might dig deeper to the root causes. The root cause problem isn't the exploitation of workers, that is a symptom of a greater problem which creates those conditions...Blah Blah Blah... the military industrial complex too, but I'll save that for another time....Blah Blah...The good peasants are taught to hope someday...Blah Blah...freeing the market ...Blah Blah...not defend "crony capitalism" when I speak Blah Blah...
A truly free market creates opportunity...Blah Blah...Free the markets, free the people, solve the problems.
Dang Rob, that was one inspired speech.

Sorry about the Blah Blah's inserted in my reply well not too sorry but don't take offense. Anybody that wants to read your rant can see it in its entirety.

Just one thing about what you said...If a person starves to death then what? Or what about their children -- how can a poor person give their children a puncher's chance if they don't have the money to get them a good education or a good meal for that matter? Free markets are a great concept not a great reality when all the capital is sucked up by the 1% while everybody else becomes their slave and make no mistake that is what is going to happen if current trends hold. Free Market theory is just a straw man held up by the 1% to keep people like you and others from recognizing the real problems in our society. Not free, not by any stretch of even your imagination
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Dang Rob, that was one inspired speech.

Sorry about the Blah Blah's inserted in my reply well not too sorry but don't take offense. Anybody that wants to read your rant can see it in its entirety.

Just one thing about what you said...If a person starves to death then what? Or what about their children -- how can a poor person give their children a puncher's chance if they don't have the money to get them a good education or a good meal for that matter? Free markets are a great concept not a great reality when all the capital is sucked up by the 1% while everybody else becomes their slave and make no mistake that is what is going to happen if current trends hold. Free Market theory is just a straw man held up by the 1% to keep people like you and others from recognizing the real problems in our society. Not free, not by any stretch of even your imagination
Couldn't have said it better myself.

I continue to be astonished at how the slaves defend their master's right to keep abusing them...
 
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