so seriously, does pH and organics go together??

[JSJ]

My soil is based off of the "re-dun-that" ss. My base was a local organic soil(compost, peat, mulch, sand), my own compost(leaves, clippings, veggie scraps, egg shells, coffee grinds with filter) and EWC. Addmendments are bone meal, blood meal, gauno, lime, azomite, Epsom, humic acid and some myco innacculant. Its been cooking now for about 6 months and I have watered with EWC tea a few times.

My water comes from the water dispenser at the grocery. It pH's right at 7.0 and usually reads around 50ppm.

I have been told from the start of my indoor experience 3 things to remember when watering, 1) dry, 2) Dry and 3) DRY. So I have never watered my pots enough to ever get any run off. So I couldn't tell you what my soil runoff pH is.

However I have what looks like pH problems on some girls. Slow growth, dark green leaves on one of them and the one right beside her has twisted new growth.

So since I never water to the point of run off, I scooped up an ounce or so of soil and mixed it with an ounce or so of pH7.0, 52ppm water. Stirred it up good and then strained it into a cup. I rechecked the water and it pH'ed at 5.2 with 456ppm.

Now, first off, I already now that the soil I scooped up off the top of the pot does not give a good representation of the soil in the root zone. And there seems to be a huge fight over whether pH is important in organics. But if pH is not important, why have farmers for centuries addmended soils organically for correct pH?

Why do I add lime to pH a soil? Must be important for some reason. So is a soil pH of 5.2 too low?

 

[_MrBelvedere_]

If your soil ph is insanely high then yes ph needs to be lowered with dolomite or something until it gets to a reasonable level. There is nothing wrong with runoff, it is a good thing. If you have not added perlite or something for great aeration and drainage then you will probably have issues. Good luck.

 

[Pattahabi]

My soil is based off of the "re-dun-that" ss. My base was a local organic soil(compost, peat, mulch, sand), my own compost(leaves, clippings, veggie scraps, egg shells, coffee grinds with filter) and EWC. Addmendments are bone meal, blood meal, gauno, lime, azomite, Epsom, humic acid and some myco innacculant. Its been cooking now for about 6 months and I have watered with EWC tea a few times.

My water comes from the water dispenser at the grocery. It pH's right at 7.0 and usually reads around 50ppm.

I have been told from the start of my indoor experience 3 things to remember when watering, 1) dry, 2) Dry and 3) DRY. So I have never watered my pots enough to ever get any run off. So I couldn't tell you what my soil runoff pH is.

However I have what looks like pH problems on some girls. Slow growth, dark green leaves on one of them and the one right beside her has twisted new growth.

So since I never water to the point of run off, I scooped up an ounce or so of soil and mixed it with an ounce or so of pH7.0, 52ppm water. Stirred it up good and then strained it into a cup. I rechecked the water and it pH'ed at 5.2 with 456ppm.

Now, first off, I already now that the soil I scooped up off the top of the pot does not give a good representation of the soil in the root zone. And there seems to be a huge fight over whether pH is important in organics. But if pH is not important, why have farmers for centuries addmended soils organically for correct pH?

Why do I add lime to pH a soil? Must be important for some reason. So is a soil pH of 5.2 too low?

That there is your problem. Microlife does not like dry, dry, dry. I'm not sure where you got the second quote, but this is my take on it. The microbe life/plant exudes will keep the soil pH just where they want them in hospitable environments. If you are growing in 50% dolo lime are the microbes going to correct that? No. So at some point it boils down to knowing you have a well built soil and maintaining the environment (talking indoor container growing). If you are letting the soil dry out, or if you are dumping salt based fertilizers, etc you are going to kill off your beneficial microbes and there's an opportunity for things to go haywire.

So the first line of remediation I recommend is jump starting the micro life. I just recommended this in the notill thread. Put an inch or two of high quality, high microbe castings/vermicompost in the top of your pots, water them in, and keep moist but not saturated water content. This will fix a lot of issues.

Adding acids and bases trying to correct a pH problem is only going to further destroy your microbe population.

hth,

P-

 

[JSJ]

My uncle has been growing indoors since the late 60s. His opinion on dry, dry, dry is his successful experience for 50 years!!

Which goes hand in hand with half of everything that you read on this site, people over watering or flushing their pots all the time.

I have a pump sprayer that has a nice fine mist. I mist my soil until the top is soaked, about a 1/4L of water maybe, and they get that every third day. My soil has plenty of moisture, yet dry, dry, dry.

And the micro heard is healthy. I see all kinds of life in my soil. Tons of tiny bacteria, big clumps of fungus strains and huge nematodes.

It just seems really funny how everybody adds some kind of pH buffer to their soil and yet say that pH is not important in organics. If it is not important then why are you adding lime, or using a pH neutral coco?

My grandpa had a small farm. Old skool, family farm, no chemicals, just shit! But yet I remember him eating the dirt to determine where to add lime to his field. If he was tasting it to test for using lime, he must have been tasting it to test the pH.

So I guess my big question here is, if you are providing a perfect environment for the micro heard, where is the pH going to be?

Most of what you read would be the 6.0-6.8 range since we are talking mj and soil. So then if I check my pH of a concoction of unproven organic matter, and it is checking at 5.2, and 2 of my girls are showing 2 different deficiencies, in the same soil, shouldn't I assume my pH is honestly to blame?

And as for the other response, my final mix is damn near 50/50 of my soil and perlite.

 

[Pattahabi]

My uncle has been growing indoors since the late 60s. His opinion on dry, dry, dry is his successful experience for 50 years!!

Which goes hand in hand with half of everything that you read on this site, people over watering or flushing their pots all the time.

I have a pump sprayer that has a nice fine mist. I mist my soil until the top is soaked, about a 1/4L of water maybe, and they get that every third day. My soil has plenty of moisture, yet dry, dry, dry.

And the micro heard is healthy. I see all kinds of life in my soil. Tons of tiny bacteria, big clumps of fungus strains and huge nematodes.

It just seems really funny how everybody adds some kind of pH buffer to their soil and yet say that pH is not important in organics. If it is not important then why are you adding lime, or using a pH neutral coco?

My grandpa had a small farm. Old skool, family farm, no chemicals, just shit! But yet I remember him eating the dirt to determine where to add lime to his field. If he was tasting it to test for using lime, he must have been tasting it to test the pH.

So I guess my big question here is, if you are providing a perfect environment for the micro heard, where is the pH going to be?

Most of what you read would be the 6.0-6.8 range since we are talking mj and soil. So then if I check my pH of a concoction of unproven organic matter, and it is checking at 5.2, and 2 of my girls are showing 2 different deficiencies, in the same soil, shouldn't I assume my pH is honestly to blame?

And as for the other response, my final mix is damn near 50/50 of my soil and perlite.

Are you using a mulch?

 

[fatburt]

if your microherd is strong you never need to ph or flush......EVER!

 

[JSJ]

I wouldn't say so. I have a thin layer of EWC on the top, and I let any dropped leaves stay on top, but I don't actually mulch it.

 

[JSJ]

if your microherd is strong you never need to ph or flush......EVER!

That's funny cause if I was growing blueberries I would pH my soil down for them. So to say you don't need to pH a good organic soil is against what the plant needs. Just because you have a good micro heard doesn't seem to automatically mean you don't need to check your pH.

 

[hydroMD]

if your microherd is strong you never need to ph or flush......EVER!

My soil is based off of the "re-dun-that" ss. My base was a local organic soil(compost, peat, mulch, sand), my own compost(leaves, clippings, veggie scraps, egg shells, coffee grinds with filter) and EWC. Addmendments are bone meal, blood meal, gauno, lime, azomite, Epsom, humic acid and some myco innacculant. Its been cooking now for about 6 months and I have watered with EWC tea a few times.

My water comes from the water dispenser at the grocery. It pH's right at 7.0 and usually reads around 50ppm.

I have been told from the start of my indoor experience 3 things to remember when watering, 1) dry, 2) Dry and 3) DRY. So I have never watered my pots enough to ever get any run off. So I couldn't tell you what my soil runoff pH is.

However I have what looks like pH problems on some girls. Slow growth, dark green leaves on one of them and the one right beside her has twisted new growth.

So since I never water to the point of run off, I scooped up an ounce or so of soil and mixed it with an ounce or so of pH7.0, 52ppm water. Stirred it up good and then strained it into a cup. I rechecked the water and it pH'ed at 5.2 with 456ppm.

Now, first off, I already now that the soil I scooped up off the top of the pot does not give a good representation of the soil in the root zone. And there seems to be a huge fight over whether pH is important in organics. But if pH is not important, why have farmers for centuries addmended soils organically for correct pH?

Why do I add lime to pH a soil? Must be important for some reason. So is a soil pH of 5.2 too low?

Ifbyou are not getting any runoff, you shoukd be watering at half strength. Organics can build up in your soil and create lockout just like synthetics.

Runoff allows excess salts to drain from your medium.

Its why drain to waste can take such high EC compared to a stand alone.

 

[hyroot]

My uncle has been growing indoors since the late 60s. His opinion on dry, dry, dry is his successful experience for 50 years!!

Which goes hand in hand with half of everything that you read on this site, people over watering or flushing their pots all the time.

I have a pump sprayer that has a nice fine mist. I mist my soil until the top is soaked, about a 1/4L of water maybe, and they get that every third day. My soil has plenty of moisture, yet dry, dry, dry.

And the micro heard is healthy. I see all kinds of life in my soil. Tons of tiny bacteria, big clumps of fungus strains and huge nematodes.

It just seems really funny how everybody adds some kind of pH buffer to their soil and yet say that pH is not important in organics. If it is not important then why are you adding lime, or using a pH neutral coco?

My grandpa had a small farm. Old skool, family farm, no chemicals, just shit! But yet I remember him eating the dirt to determine where to add lime to his field. If he was tasting it to test for using lime, he must have been tasting it to test the pH.

So I guess my big question here is, if you are providing a perfect environment for the micro heard, where is the pH going to be?

Most of what you read would be the 6.0-6.8 range since we are talking mj and soil. So then if I check my pH of a concoction of unproven organic matter, and it is checking at 5.2, and 2 of my girls are showing 2 different deficiencies, in the same soil, shouldn't I assume my pH is honestly to blame?

And as for the other response, my final mix is damn near 50/50 of my soil and perlite.

dole lime is.not a buffer. Compost, castings, / VC, coco, calcium carbonate ( crab meal, egg shells) are natural buffers and /or ph regulators. They keep the ph stable. That's why ph is irrelevant in organics. Using ph up down chems will kill off the micro herd.

dole lime, peat, ash can adjust ph. But not buffer. A ph buffer means the ph doesn't change. It stays where its at.

 

[JSJ]

Ifbyou are not getting any runoff, you shoukd be watering at half strength. Organics can build up in your soil and create lockout just like synthetics.

Runoff allows excess salts to drain from your medium.

Its why drain to waste can take such high EC compared to a stand alone.

I should be watering at half strength??? How do I use half strength water?? No offense, but judging from your name, sounds like are can hydro guy, and using ferts. I'm in soil watering with water, straight from the grocery store, which checks at 7.0pH with a very low ppm. Reference to just how clean the water going in is.

 

[JSJ]

dole lime is.not a buffer. Compost, castings, / VC, coco, calcium carbonate ( crab meal, egg shells) are natural buffers and /or ph regulators. They keep the ph stable. That's why ph is irrelevant in organics. Using ph up down chems will kill off the micro herd.

dole lime, peat, ash can adjust ph. But not buffer. A ph buffer means the ph doesn't change. It stays where its at.

Again, I am not using any chems or ferts, just good ole h2o. So I used the word buffer wrong, sorry. What I was trying to say is that in total organic situation, I can add organic matter to adjust the pH of the soil to give the plant what it wants.
But yet people still say that it is irrelevant, because the plant/soil/micros will adjust to what they want.

Then why would my plant/soil/micros have the pH so low, and then show signs of deficiencies?

 

[hyroot]

Again, I am not using any chems or ferts, just good ole h2o. So I used the word buffer wrong, sorry. What I was trying to say is that in total organic situation, I can add organic matter to adjust the pH of the soil to give the plant what it wants.
But yet people still say that it is irrelevant, because the plant/soil/micros will adjust to what they want.

Then why would my plant/soil/micros have the pH so low, and then show signs of deficiencies?

maybe your soil mix didn't cook long enough. Maybe you didn't put enough in your soil.. Some strains use more of a specific nutrient than others. Like you said you have a thin layer of castings. You want a 2 inch layer . Its taking longer for microbes to populate.

actually I realized you let your soil dry out. That's why. leaves will yellow.over night with dry soil. microbes die off with dry soil.

 

[anzohaze]

That there is your problem. Microlife does not like dry, dry, dry. I'm not sure where you got the second quote, but this is my take on it. The microbe life/plant exudes will keep the soil pH just where they want them in hospitable environments. If you are growing in 50% dolo lime are the microbes going to correct that? No. So at some point it boils down to knowing you have a well built soil and maintaining the environment (talking indoor container growing). If you are letting the soil dry out, or if you are dumping salt based fertilizers, etc you are going to kill off your beneficial microbes and there's an opportunity for things to go haywire.

So the first line of remediation I recommend is jump starting the micro life. I just recommended this in the notill thread. Put an inch or two of high quality, high microbe castings/vermicompost in the top of your pots, water them in, and keep moist but not saturated water content. This will fix a lot of issues.

Adding acids and bases trying to correct a pH problem is only going to further destroy your microbe population.

hth,

P-

listen to patta he knows his shit. If he types it I read it As well as by root Greasemonkeyman Are the few mains. Doing it is a Lil different then reading but I completely understand once I do it. I pm him a decent amount and is quick to give advice help any way he can. He's a top hippie around here lol

 

[anzohaze]

If you use Pelletized lime it will take much longer to break down and balance then "powdered" or pulverized lime

 

[JSJ]

maybe your soil mix didn't cook long enough. Maybe you didn't put enough in your soil.. Some strains use more of a specific nutrient than others. Like you said you have a thin layer of castings. You want a 2 inch layer . Its taking longer for microbes to populate.

actually I realized you let your soil dry out. That's why. leaves will yellow.over night with dry soil. microbes die off with dry soil.

What's the difference between 2 inches of EWC on top, and the fact that 1/3 of my mix is EWC?

My soil has never dried out. Not sure where you ever got that? I don't water till there is run off, but I soak the pots every 3 days. My girls have never showed stress from being dry.

And again, I can see all the life in the soil. The herd is strong. Plus they get EWC tea every 3-4 watering.

I thought the same thing about not being cooked long enough, but shit I mixed it up 6months ago or better, and have watered it with EWC tea also. So......

 

[hyroot]

What's the difference between 2 inches of EWC on top, and the fact that 1/3 of my mix is EWC?

My soil has never dried out. Not sure where you ever got that? I don't water till there is run off, but I soak the pots every 3 days. My girls have never showed stress from being dry.

And again, I can see all the life in the soil. The herd is strong. Plus they get EWC tea every 3-4 watering.

I thought the same thing about not being cooked long enough, but shit I mixed it up 6months ago or better, and have watered it with EWC tea also. So......

you are over doing it on the teas. Unnecessary. It wont cause anything bad. Microbes are already in the mix.

what is your soil mix? What deficiencies are you seeing?

 

[hydroMD]

I grow soil too, but I feed my plants every other watering all the way through til flush.

I wasn't aware you were using water only. Sorry bruh, why the harshness

Got any pics?

Im not sure how far along into your cycle you are, butnif your ph is off, your plants might be relying on readily available nutes from the soil.

Microbes will break down NPK into readily usable food, but if they arent producing enough enzymes, your ph still needs to be in check to draw from soil (with microbes popping there is a larger buffer).

As a few people stated you could use lime, but from the sounds of it, your soil is pretty hot, and im guessing you already have sufficient magnesium. If that's the case id advise against lime.

Better alternative would be egg shells as id think the added calcium would be safer than mg.


But what do I know, im just a hydro guy

 

[hydroMD]

you are over doing it on the teas. Unnecessary. It wont cause anything bad. Microbes are already in the mix.

what is your soil mix? What deficiencies are you seeing?

Sounds like nitrogen with the dark green color. I could see Low ph from a hot soil attributing to the problem.

If he cooked his soil for 6 months, chances are he didn't add enough lime and egg shells to account for the warm acidic conditions that would produce.

Microbes provide a nice buffer but there are limits I tell ya!!!

 

[Pattahabi]

What's the difference between 2 inches of EWC on top, and the fact that 1/3 of my mix is EWC?

My soil has never dried out. Not sure where you ever got that? I don't water till there is run off, but I soak the pots every 3 days. My girls have never showed stress from being dry.

And again, I can see all the life in the soil. The herd is strong. Plus they get EWC tea every 3-4 watering.

I thought the same thing about not being cooked long enough, but shit I mixed it up 6months ago or better, and have watered it with EWC tea also. So......

Sounds like you and your uncle are already professional growers, so I'll cut to the chase. Plenty of people use a variety of organic mixes without ever checking ppm's or pH. Organics isn't to blame here, this is a user error.

Back to the drawing board Boris...

P-