Neoliberal Economics is DEAD

TheHermit

Well-Known Member

Seriously, tough decision... We have the money to do this, the problem is how that money is currently allocated. Not having the money is not a valid argument.
We don't have the money to do this though, and not having the money is a very valid argument. I am not against the idea, but it is not realistic. We don't have the tax revenue to make something like that happen, and creating the money from nothing would absolutely crash the economy. A scaled back version could be feasible, but a better and simpler idea would be to raise the minimum wage to something livable.
 

TheHermit

Well-Known Member
40 hours per week = food and shelter (plus consumables related to employment)...That's a survival wage.
Add 25% to that to cover a 10% savings rate and 10% "entertainment"...now it's a living wage.

How does that sound for a starting point?


It gets funded the same way everything else does at the Federal level...by being spent into existence.

in case you're wondering.
x +0.25x = 1.25x
10% * 1.25x = 0.125x
0.125x * 2 = .25x = 20% of 1.25x
I agree with what you are saying about a living wage, but that video is pure nonsense. You shouldn't take economic advice from a fiction novelist with no training whatsoever in economics. The point of taxes is to control inflation? Really? The federal reserve can attempt to control inflation by manipulating interest rates. Taxes have nothing to do with it. How would taxes remove money from the economy if the tax money is then spent? The private sector absolutely creates money. That is what happens when you borrow money from a bank. Money is created in the form of debt. It has to be one of the most factually inaccurate videos I have seen about economics.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Dang Rob, that was one inspired speech.

Sorry about the Blah Blah's inserted in my reply well not too sorry but don't take offense. Anybody that wants to read your rant can see it in its entirety.

Just one thing about what you said...If a person starves to death then what? Or what about their children -- how can a poor person give their children a puncher's chance if they don't have the money to get them a good education or a good meal for that matter? Free markets are a great concept not a great reality when all the capital is sucked up by the 1% while everybody else becomes their slave and make no mistake that is what is going to happen if current trends hold. Free Market theory is just a straw man held up by the 1% to keep people like you and others from recognizing the real problems in our society. Not free, not by any stretch of even your imagination
If a person wants to starve to death ? How is that your business to determine the running of that persons life? If you are aware a person needs help and wants help, what is preventing you personally from giving them some?

A good education? Please explain how a "good education" can be had, if it is funded thru means that are not "good". Shouldn't children be taught bullying is wrong?

Tell me what you think the characteristics of a free market are....this should be interesting. Your first attempt was wholly lacking and frankly very inaccurate.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
We don't have the money to do this though, and not having the money is a very valid argument. I am not against the idea, but it is not realistic. We don't have the tax revenue to make something like that happen, and creating the money from nothing would absolutely crash the economy. A scaled back version could be feasible, but a better and simpler idea would be to raise the minimum wage to something livable.
Why do you say "we" don't have the money? Just curious who you are referring to and why.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
40 hours per week = food and shelter (plus consumables related to employment)...That's a survival wage.
Add 25% to that to cover a 10% savings rate and 10% "entertainment"...now it's a living wage.

How does that sound for a starting point?


It gets funded the same way everything else does at the Federal level...by being spent into existence.

in case you're wondering.
x +0.25x = 1.25x
10% * 1.25x = 0.125x
0.125x * 2 = .25x = 20% of 1.25x
Thanks Heckler for posting this. Its funny how when something gets clearly explained using actual facts (as opposed to Fox News), the dialogue quickly drifts away. It a better starting point for a discussion than some have put forth.


If a person wants to starve to death ? How is that your business to determine the running of that persons life? If you are aware a person needs help and wants help, what is preventing you personally from giving them some?

A good education? Please explain how a "good education" can be had, if it is funded thru means that are not "good". Shouldn't children be taught bullying is wrong?

Tell me what you think the characteristics of a free market are....this should be interesting. Your first attempt was wholly lacking and frankly very inaccurate.
Rob, your utopia runs off these axioms:Everybody in the world is born with an equal chance at a good life. Property is the single most important right that a person has. This right takes precedence over the life and liberty of others (although that's important too, just not so important).The govmint can do nothing good. Collective action can do nothing good. Only individual action is good.

Your Utopia is great; Everybody achieves what the can and want, everybody respects everybody else, we are free to do whatever we want.. However it exists only in your mind which is a blunt but persistent thing.

Its an understatement that most people don't have a Great Mind. They only know what they know. Many, perhaps most, tend to be facts driven rather than philosophy driven. Philosophy is useful too but it doesn't hold most people's interest.. I fall in this camp. Highly respected people with Great Minds use philosophy to define their world, but they can seem a little strange to most of us when their philosophy isn't rooted in facts. This is doubly true for philosophers that don't have a Great Mind (aaHEMmmm....). Sane people are always checking inner thoughts against what's actually happening in the world to make sure that inner "reality" matches the real reality (yeesh that was a clumsy statement but I'm lazy).

Facts: Everybody is not born with an equal chance. We only own property when we can defend it. We have laws enforced by our govmint to help us do just that. Our govmint is a collective of people. Most are good workers who try to accomplish their tasks, some are not. The only way for a society to endure is when the majority of people agree to act according to the same principles. This is collective action, not necessarily good or bad. Individual action can be good or bad but it cannot stand against a collective. Property can either be legally obtained by making or buying it, a gift or inherited. By collective action we agree that this person has a right to it. Is that Bad or Good? OOPS that's drifting into philosophy talk. This agreement regarding property is necessary for an efficient society. Without it, people must waste resources defending their stuff or they will take other peoples stuff that they didn't produce or earn themselves.

There is no free market so I'm not going there. A market is an agreed upon way to facilitate the conversion of production into consumption. An economic system like the one described by the video posted by heckler seems like a fair description of how it works today.

We are living in a time where the top 1% are accumulating ownership right of more and more of the resources of this world. There are two kinds of "wealthy" people -- a few, like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Sam Walmart (I forget his name) create wealth by coming up with a better way to either produce something or a more efficient way to distribute production. They become astoundingly wealthy but also to a benefit of society. I don't like Walmart but a lot of people shop there.

The rest of the 1% inherit their wealth or are crafty accumulators of it via rent-seeking, corruption, theft (e.g. Wall Street during the '00's). These crafty accumulators game the system to accumulate wealth and do not produce anything. It is these people that need a good beating in their wallet. Not because they are evil but because they aren't producing anything with their wealth. These people eventually destroy value by excessive consumption and speculation. As we saw in early part of this decade, the 99% bear the brunt of their mistakes. These people will stop at nothing to defend their social position and continue to feed their unbalanced desire for more...unless they are stopped by the collective action of the 99%.

Our system will achieve balance at some time. But like a dam that accumulates more water than it releases, our system can break catastrophically if we let current trends continue. If the system breaks, what then? I'd rather not find out.

People like RR can rant against the govmint all they want. The govmint is a part of our society and the society is the 100%. The 99% don't have to let the crafty 1% continue to gorge until enough hungry people without hope for their children -- and badly educated to boot -- crash over their walls. Because the dynamics of the system is out of balance, the system has to change and it will, one way or another.

I know, tl:dr
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Couldn't have said it better myself.

I continue to be astonished at how the slaves defend their master's right to keep abusing them...
It boggles me too. Without statutory slavery, the relationship is consensual, so for a slave to admit their situation is wrong they would have to admit that they are fools to go along with it. People are taking on too much debt and becoming a slave to debt. Also, the working poor become wage slaves if they stay in a poorly paying job without trying to free themselves. But we can go too far blaming the poor without a commitment by this society to a living wage for everybody.

Masters are very clever in manipulating the situation in their favor and see themselves justified in their cruelty.. I saw a documentary on imported workers that were held against their will in the US. One thing that the commentator of the documentary said was that he was astonished at how unnecessarily cruel the perpetrators were. They went way over what was necessary to keep their victims in captivity. There are parallels to how we treat our poor -- no health care, food insecurity, poor education opportunity and so forth.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
We don't have the money to do this though, and not having the money is a very valid argument. I am not against the idea, but it is not realistic. We don't have the tax revenue to make something like that happen, and creating the money from nothing would absolutely crash the economy. A scaled back version could be feasible, but a better and simpler idea would be to raise the minimum wage to something livable.
Bullshit. Of COURSE we have the money- we just shovel it at politically connected multinationals in the form of endless tax breaks, subsidies and other forms of corporate welfare at the expense of the average taxpaying citizen.

Since unlimited spending on campaigns was legalized by Supreme Court fiat, the people have been usurped by wealthy donors and corporations. That's what has to change. If/when it does, the rest will fall in line as well.
 

Iloveskywalkerog

Well-Known Member
Bullshit. Of COURSE we have the money- we just shovel it at politically connected multinationals in the form of endless tax breaks, subsidies and other forms of corporate welfare at the expense of the average taxpaying citizen.

Since unlimited spending on campaigns was legalized by Supreme Court fiat, the people have been usurped by wealthy donors and corporations. That's what has to change. If/when it does, the rest will fall in line as well.
Too bad it is never going to change unless u.s. citizens remove the blindfold from their eyes, and realize that the entity that keeps those trillions of dollars for itself, does not have their best interest in mind, Then we can finally fight the corrupt entity that keeps the American people distracted like a five year old kid in a doctors waiting room. I don't know that the whole government is to blame, but I do know our current president has something to do with it.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Too bad it is never going to change unless u.s. citizens remove the blindfold from their eyes, and realize that the entity that keeps those trillions of dollars for itself, does not have their best interest in mind, Then we can finally fight the corrupt entity that keeps the American people distracted like a five year old kid in a doctors waiting room. I don't know that the whole government is to blame, but I do know our current president has something to do with it.
Senators currently need to 'earn' about $3300 A DAY just to remain viable candidates. That's how expensive running campaigns has horn in this country. Where does that leave the other 90+%? Right where you'd expect. THIS is what has to change, and I'm afraid more people sleeping in their cars- yet somehow being blamed for it- is in our future unless the people act.

Eventually the dam will break. If like to see it happen sooner and peaceably, rather than later and violently. Thanks, @Fogdog for that excellent analogy.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I agree with what you are saying about a living wage, but that video is pure nonsense. You shouldn't take economic advice from a fiction novelist with no training whatsoever in economics. The point of taxes is to control inflation? Really? The federal reserve can attempt to control inflation by manipulating interest rates. Taxes have nothing to do with it. How would taxes remove money from the economy if the tax money is then spent? The private sector absolutely creates money. That is what happens when you borrow money from a bank. Money is created in the form of debt. It has to be one of the most factually inaccurate videos I have seen about economics.
I gave you too much credit and did some fact checking. Not again. For people like you, facts are an inconvenience.

The video that you dismissed because the author was a fiction novelist? Umm this is who JD Alt is: "J.D. ALT is an architect and author in Annapolis, Maryland. He became interested in understanding—and explaining—Modern Monetary Theory in 2011 while researching a strategy for implementing affordable housing on a national scale. " The blog that he works on "New Economic Perspectives" lists 16 members. Most including Alt are much more than SF authors. One member unconnected with the video is the SF author you refer to. I will figuratively not literally shoot you with my stupid guy bullet sir. pew pew pew

Taxation as a control of inflation? Read this from an address the Treasury Dept, Division of Tax Research, by Roy Blough, 1944: http://www.taxhistory.org/Civilization/Documents/Fiscal/hst29026.htm This is not a new theory. Too bad you weren't around in 1944, you might have learned something. pew pew pew

edit: I deleted some stuff that I wrote and I later changed my mind about. It was a bit over the top. Sorry about that.
 
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ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Thanks, but not mine and not new. But I'm glad you found the analogy useful.
So now what? The informal surveys I take of friends, acquaintances and near strangers in my life all seem to point to a general feeling of malaise and disappointment- which is exactly what those IN power want to see, so they can continue manipulating things to their own ends unmolested.

What will it take to break through and galvanize the population currently being screwed so badly- that's most of us- into meaningful and effective action?

At this point, there are more people who would blame those worst off in our economy for their troubles than take the larger view that any American that's suffering is one too many- and that it's everyone's responsibility- even the zillionaire's- to do something about it.

No one needs to sleep in their car, yet one if the only effective things being done for them are along the lines of giving them a secure parking lot. That's amazingly shortsighted from a nation building point of view.

Meanwhile, more corporate pork is proposed and passed in Congress every day. Then they talk about ethics and morality as if they have any idea what it means.
 
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