rob333
Well-Known Member
dont ph the soil just water with the water u have as is
Dolomite Lime
- Thread starter Joe parker
- Start date
They may taste good. I had one that suffered a lot from nute lockout (salt buildup). I foliar fed to keep it alive. Wasn't hopeful. But, the smoke was great.
If I were you I would throwaway that lime you bought and get something with more of a pedigree. For example, Fertilome Hi-Yield Agricultural Lime. Amend that into your next grow's soil, about 1.5 tbsp/gal.
Err on the side of underfeeding. If you see deficiency you can feed more. That's easier to deal with than overfeeding and wondering if it's lockout, then flushing, etc.
If you want to try another soil, I use Pro-Mix HP mixed with Kellogg Patio Plus and perlite (50-60%, 20-25%, 20-25%, respectively). It works great. Very little built in nutes. Light, airy, loamy. Water every 2-3 days. The problem may not be your soil. But, if you want to rule it out, this mix works.
Joe parker
Active Member
Anyone try dry fertilizers like fox farm happy frog all purpose or fruit and flower. They say you can mix it into the soil at the beginning and you can go 8+ weeks with only feeding your plants ph'd water and you can't burn the plants because they slowly uptake nutrients as they need it and they're all organic fertilizer.
http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/index.php/item/happy-frog-all-purpose-fertilizer.html
http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/index.php/item/happy-frog-fruit-and-flower-fertilizer.html
http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/index.php/item/happy-frog-all-purpose-fertilizer.html
http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/index.php/item/happy-frog-fruit-and-flower-fertilizer.html
Unrelated to your question: You shouldn't have to ph water. It won't have enough buffers/ppm to hold its ph compared to the buffers in the soil. This is demonstrated by how it only takes a drop of ph-up/down to change water's ph a full point, while it takes 1/2 tsp (or more) to change nuted water (800ppm).
It wouldn't hurt to ph the water. But, I think it's a waste of time.
Joe parker
Active Member
So you never ph your water? Even if you use liquid fertilizers? I was led to believe the water you feed with can change the ph of your soil.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
The "pHing" of ANY soil grow is not needed! Soil will self pH if taken care of properly (You don't NEED to pH any ingoing feed/water....I have my OCD moments/belief's so "just to be sure", I do pH all ingoing to 6.5 and FORGET about the pHing of the soil for the whole grow)!
Any watering in soil will cause a pH fluctuation. As the soil begins to dry, the pH will swing back the other way. This "fluctuation" is how nature ensures proper nutritional availabilities to the plant (keep in mind that all nutrients are at peak availability at differing pH ranges).
The living bio's in the soil have an effect on pH fluctuation and healthy bio counts are a plus (the use of synthetic feeds should be coupled with the use of "zyme type" supplement for this reason).
The soil you START with is JUST as important as the FEED you use (All soil's WILL have a nutritional value of one level or another. YOU must figure what the available NPK of that soil is OR the duration of it's availability to properly EMPLOY a feed of any type)!
Now, with that said, and from the pictures you show. I'll say this......
Cal/Mg problems leading to other problems like P issues in BOTH runs! ADDING a GOOD Cal/Mg product at every feeding at 50% levels of what the maker lists will NOT hurt and in your case (Auto's) most likely make a BIG difference.
Auto's tend to be fussy feeders and just plain fussy overall anyway......I have ran some as tests for some breeders and,,, well,, to be fair. I don't like them, they are not for me....Don't get me wrong, they do work. I just don't think they are worth how fussy they can be....
Doc
Joe parker
Active Member
Should you need cal/mag if you add dolomite lime to the soil at the beginning?
I was just talking about water without nutrients. (Water that is low ppm, no addition of ppms from nutrients.). If you ph adjust plain water (especially RO water) you'll see what I mean. It only takes a drop to change the ph greatly. Obviously (if you think about it for awhile), that water's ph won't have much affect on soil that has a lot of buffering capability.
Now you're asking if you should ph your nutrients. I agree in principle with Doc. But, I also think it depends on your situation, how strong your nutes are, how far "off" the nutrient mix is. I wouldn't enter into that lightly.
If you're just ph'ing water (to water soil that has nutes built in), I wouldn't give it a second thought. That water won't have much affect on the soil's ph. But, with water containing nutrients, if it takes a lot of ph up/down to move the ph (and if the ph is off quite a bit), I'd try not phing just one plant and see how it goes. (I'd also be sure I added 1-2 tbsp/gal dolomite to the soil.). I'd watch the runoff ph (and I'd probably invest $60 in a Control Wizard Accurate 8 ph probe.). I'd be careful trying it.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Dolomite is added to most premix soils.....Very, very few leave out a long acting lime agent.
Now to answer your question; That would depend on what soil and how much was added. But for the most point no!
I make a TLO style super soil. I use Potters Gold as the base, and amend (or build) from there. And I do add more dolomite to the mix. I have had occasion to use some Ca/Mg in/along with my waterings as I see it may be needed.
For the most part, when using my "water only" organic super soil, no, I don't. I built that soil. I know whats in it and I know how long those components in the soil will last.
If I ran a premixed soil and added dolomite.....I may not be inclined to add any. That again can have factors like "what soil and how hot is it" you may be running.
You used FFOF. That can use a tick more in my opinion (perlite AND dolomite). FFOF is also a soil that tends to be "hot" or contain enuff nutrition for well rooted plants out of solo cups to go right around 30 days with no added "feed"! Did you "feed" during that time?
If so, that would, in my mind, be a another cause of your problem with those Auto's.
Doc
Now to answer your question; That would depend on what soil and how much was added. But for the most point no!
I make a TLO style super soil. I use Potters Gold as the base, and amend (or build) from there. And I do add more dolomite to the mix. I have had occasion to use some Ca/Mg in/along with my waterings as I see it may be needed.
For the most part, when using my "water only" organic super soil, no, I don't. I built that soil. I know whats in it and I know how long those components in the soil will last.
If I ran a premixed soil and added dolomite.....I may not be inclined to add any. That again can have factors like "what soil and how hot is it" you may be running.
You used FFOF. That can use a tick more in my opinion (perlite AND dolomite). FFOF is also a soil that tends to be "hot" or contain enuff nutrition for well rooted plants out of solo cups to go right around 30 days with no added "feed"! Did you "feed" during that time?
If so, that would, in my mind, be a another cause of your problem with those Auto's.
Doc
Joe parker
Active Member
I started feeding around 30 days with 5ml per gallon of fox farm grow big.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Part 1: Exactly
Part2: pHing the run off does NOT give you the pH of the soil. It takes to much time to get good at KNOWING what that runoff pH REALLY is in relation to the soils actual pH.
That will also depend on EXACTLY when you meter the soil (when metering soil directly with a meter). Like I said before. You water and the soil will make a "major" pH swing in one direction and as it dries out it slowly comes back to where it started. So then. If you meter as little as 1 hour different from the watering as the last time. Your pH reading will be off in comparison. That again will be affected by the ingoing pH as the "recovery" time will be different (in a relative way) if it is a lower or higher pH solution being used.
Unless you spend BIG $ on a lab quality Ag pH meter/probe. Spending money on a pH meter for soil is simply throwing money away.
You really don't NEED it!
If it makes you FEEL better......Then simply pH ALL ingoing liquids to 6.5 and FORGET about the soils pH! It will in NO WAY hurt to do that!
Doc
PS not trying to be in your face AZ. Just trying to give working info to the OP.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
OK then. I agree with Chuck.......Ca/Mg
Next time use the soil from the bag. Add perlite, say about a gallon.
Now simply use a quality Ca/Mg like CALiMAGic at every watering, say at 3ml per gal (full strength = 5ml per Gal).
You should be happy with those results for Auto's.
Doc
Joe parker
Active Member
What if I add dolomite add the beginning? Still use cal mag?
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Why bother adding the dolomite?
More work and it's not really "worked" into the soil properly unless it's done before the plants are put in and completely mixed in all the soil.
The Ca/Mg supplement is instant available to the plant.....That's what I want you to shoot for. Not added Ca for pH stability in the soil.
Understand now?
More work and it's not really "worked" into the soil properly unless it's done before the plants are put in and completely mixed in all the soil.
The Ca/Mg supplement is instant available to the plant.....That's what I want you to shoot for. Not added Ca for pH stability in the soil.
Understand now?
I disagree. There is still a risk of salt build up and acidic soil. Monitoring the trend of runoff ph and ppm can be very useful. After dialing in nute strength, runoff volume and soil there's no reason to monitor runoff. But, it's valuable info to have while dialing it in.
A decent soil probe like the one I mentioned helped to confirm what I was seeing in the runoff. It's not necessary. Might not be worth the $60. Definitely not a high priority. But, it's a nice tool to have. I've used it a lot. (I think I've also discovered a side-benefit that it's 3/8" diameter shaft aerates the soil nicely. I think my plants benefit from that. I want to buy a 1/4" aluminum rod and get in the habit of aerating the soil.).
I'm just conveying what works for me.
If you're in soil, just add dolomite and you won't need "calmag" unless you're feeding low-ppm RO water that has no minerals. In that case, you might benefit from 2ml/gal to replace those minerals.
If you amend dolomite into the soil, and your tap is suitable to use (or you add tap to RO water to get a starting PPM of 120-220) you simply don't need "calmag." It's more of a hydro thing.
You can treat magnesum defs using epsom salt, calcum defs using gypsum (or dissolve eggshells in vinegar, but this takes some time to prepare.).
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
What salt build up? He's using FF organic liquids.
I have never had a salt build up problem, even with synthetic nutrition in soil. If you are getting salt build ups in soil, you need to cut back on the nutrient. I'll bet they look (way) bad by then anyway. The WAY you water/feed maybe a peoblem if your getting salt build ups too......One method I have come to discard is the "water to a metered run off" amount......That is too easy to over do on many levels.....
I use a metered amount in ml of water OR feed (if running a synth) at every watering done once a day at the say time every day. I get GREAT aeration and smooth pH swings of optimal nutrient availability.
Works for me thing too.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
"Water PPM should not go over 150 PPM for tap or well water".......I quote Ed Rosenthal
Trust me on the Ca/Mg thing AZ......That's suggested for the Auto's he runs.....They always seemed to do better with low nutrients and added Ca/Mg,,,,,,even in soil!
NICE organic solutions to Ca/Mg! Always like to see those......Damn, always forget something......age sucks.....
You don't have to look far to see that it happens a lot, especially with new growers or when using new nutes and soil.
I've found the trend of runoff ph/ppm to be valuable info to have when that condition occurs in early flower.
I've grown a few autos. Just harvested one two days ago. I haven't noticed any significant nutrient requirements, especially in the area of "calmag."
Again, just my experience. Feel free to share yours.
Joe parker
Active Member
Fox farm grow big and tiger bloom aren't organic. Only big bloom is.