so seriously, does pH and organics go together??

[greasemonkeymann]

Ahhh I see... I Am making my worm bin today! Ordering worms too! What if I just bought some bait worms?

no, you want redworms, unless that is what you are talking about.
Bait worms are typically nightcrawlers, which don't do a lot of composting compared to reds

 

[greasemonkeymann]

My way 100% microbe tea,and chem fertilizers.
Same shit,one step removed.
Watch this,live life easier,stop being hyped.

I love penn and teller but their test was for fruit, I have never ever ever had chemically grown weed that tastes as good as mine, or that of a couple of my fellow organic guys.
But if you want to brew up microbes and then add a bunch of chemicals after that, well then all the power to ya.
Besides all of that, there is a WHOLE lot more going on there than just taste.
Chemical fertilizers are destroying the planet. Period. not to mention all the other shit that they spray on the "non-organic" crops, the stuff you can't taste, but the stuff that causes hundreds if not thousands of migrant workers to come down with odd and rare forms of cancers, ( I know a guy that has lost three of his immediate family members from weird and rare cancers, and they all worked in the fields.) The stuff they allow you to spray on OMRI crops freaks me out, much less the stuff that isn't "omri".
But go ahead man. Be my guest.
and furthermore... do you REALLY think that if penn and teller didn't have the results they wanted that they could simply edit to film it in their favor? They could have had dozens of people that picked the organic fruit over the chem one, not to mention it's fruit! Haven't you.. um tasted the differences in fruit? Sometimes you get a good one, sometimes it's shit.
I mean it's hardly a scientific thing, I have seen EVERY penn and teller, those guys are great, but scientific? NO.
It's comedy man.

 

[Rrog]

The *product* that you're using is organic, yes. But why bother? It makes absolutely no difference to your plant wether you use a synthetic source of N or enzymatically processed alfalfa meal. It is taken up in exactly the same form.

um yes,its a big difference,,,,dont say shit when you dont know,,,,,it can fuck someones whole grow!
if u use that product in hydro vs soil your plants are fed very differently...in soil the microbes break it down and feed the soil,in hydro you are directly feeding the plant.....get it?

Not sure who you're calling out, but Stowe is quite correct. I have no comments about hydro, but pouring any raw ferts in a true soil will simply put the microbes outta business. You'll then have a bottle-fed plant in a soil-like medium.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Not sure who you're calling out, but Stowe is quite correct. I have no comments about hydro, but pouring any raw ferts in a true soil will simply put the microbes outta business. You'll then have a bottle-fed plant in a soil-like medium.

that was my point, using microbe teas and chemical nutes seems counterintuitive

 

[rory420420]

I love penn and teller but their test was for fruit, I have never ever ever had chemically grown weed that tastes as good as mine, or that of a couple of my fellow organic guys.
But if you want to brew up microbes and then add a bunch of chemicals after that, well then all the power to ya.
Besides all of that, there is a WHOLE lot more going on there than just taste.
Chemical fertilizers are destroying the planet. Period. not to mention all the other shit that they spray on the "non-organic" crops, the stuff you can't taste, but the stuff that causes hundreds if not thousands of migrant workers to come down with odd and rare forms of cancers, ( I know a guy that has lost three of his immediate family members from weird and rare cancers, and they all worked in the fields.) The stuff they allow you to spray on OMRI crops freaks me out, much less the stuff that isn't "omri".
But go ahead man. Be my guest.
and furthermore... do you REALLY think that if penn and teller didn't have the results they wanted that they could simply edit to film it in their favor? They could have had dozens of people that picked the organic fruit over the chem one, not to mention it's fruit! Haven't you.. um tasted the differences in fruit? Sometimes you get a good one, sometimes it's shit.
I mean it's hardly a scientific thing, I have seen EVERY penn and teller, those guys are great, but scientific? NO.
It's comedy man.

Nitrogen is nitrogen,whether its ready for the plants,or it was broke down...
What's killing this planet is lack of education...

 

[Rrog]

Right-O. So listen up and learn something

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Nitrogen is nitrogen,whether its ready for the plants,or it was broke down...
What's killing this planet is lack of education...

sure man. whatever you say..
The byproduct of commercial nitrogens being used break down into nitrates, and the commercial phosphates as well, are causing a good amount of redtides, killing everything.
Sure it's harmless, except for the um... deaths.
What do you do with your runoff?
I do agree with you though, this planet does indeed have a serious issue with education.
So like I said go ahead man.
I do think it's interesting that you ignored the majority of my argument though.
Go ahead and eat your chemically grown fruit that was sprayed with god only knows what.
And smoke your chemically grown herb.
It's your body dude, drink a diet coke and wash down your big mac while you are at it.

 

[rory420420]

Haven't ate at McDonalds in 15 years or more..but hurl insults to prove your point.
Its not the fertilizers,its the users who don't use them correctly...
In the doctoral horticulture program at virginia tech,at age ELEVEN,I learned this...
Yes.I'm not bullshitting.
But,continued educational programs on the subject are waning obviously..now we grow with ego,and popular thought...
How quaint.

 

[Rrog]

Bottle-feed, and the microbe / plant relationship is compromised / lost to some degree. That's a fact.

If someone doesn't value this microbial arrangement that is free to all, then that's cool.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Haven't ate at McDonalds in 15 years or more..but hurl insults to prove your point.
Its not the fertilizers,its the users who don't use them correctly...
In the doctoral horticulture program at virginia tech,at age ELEVEN,I learned this...
Yes.I'm not bullshitting.
But,continued educational programs on the subject are waning obviously..now we grow with ego,and popular thought...
How quaint.

I apologize if you took anything as an insult, wasn't my intentions at all. I think i made my point fairly abundantly clear, yet you still skate it..
To each their own, god knows I have smoked a good amount of chem-weed in my day.
And I suppose since you know so much and were schooled at an early age (I applaud that by the way) that you don't need me to point out anything.
But again you ignored the majority of my point, i eat organic fruit because of the pesticides..
My ex GF went to a school next to an almond orchard, they were spraying, and yrs later four girls from that school, were coming down with the same rare and scary cancer, and they all but attributed it to the sprays..
Obviously it's hard to link EXACTLY what causes it, but still, wanna take that chance?
Like i said, go ahead and continue to grow and smoke your own weed. It's your body.
i never said you were doing anything wrong, only said that you are missing the point.
Putting a video of a penn and teller show, and acting like your case was closed seemed a lil obtuse, especially when you take into account your apparent intellect.
I don't care to argue my point any further.

 

[hydroMD]

The *product* that you're using is organic, yes. But why bother? It makes absolutely no difference to your plant wether you use a synthetic source of N or enzymatically processed alfalfa meal. It is taken up in exactly the same form.

What matters in organics is HOW the plant derives it's sustenance. That symbiotic relationship between the microbes and the plant is the very essence of organics. There are benefits to it beyond just being able to say that you're feeding your plants something organic.

What is the point in what you're doing? What do you feel the benefits are in using organic bottled nutrients above synthetics in a hydro setup?

The point is results. Last few years my organic hydro has produced very nice flowers. I still inoculate, but with much less effeciency than soil.

I dont claim it to be superior than using synthetic fertilizers, but whether its a progression of skill or results fro technique, its doing something.

All you strictly soil guys sure do get defensive when something new comes around!


This Is the point

 

[hydroMD]

The *product* that you're using is organic, yes. But why bother? It makes absolutely no difference to your plant wether you use a synthetic source of N or enzymatically processed alfalfa meal. It is taken up in exactly the same form.

um yes,its a big difference,,,,dont say shit when you dont know,,,,,it can fuck someones whole grow!
if u use that product in hydro vs soil your plants are fed very differently...in soil the microbes break it down and feed the soil,in hydro you are directly feeding the plant.....get it?

First of all, this isnt my first rodeo cowboy. Your snide condescending attitude makes me wonder where this false sense of superior knowledge comes from.

And why I bother is posted above.

Edit: im well aware that letting microbes do the work is best direction in organics... but its not the method that gives most people the incentive to use organic, its the label and whatever pre conceived bias they hold. That was my only point dick.

Lets compare my fake organics to your real organics..... Im sure nobody is gonna pick out the microbe driven flower in a blind taste test

 

[greasemonkeymann]

The point is results. Last few years my organic hydro has produced very nice flowers. I still inoculate, but with much less effeciency than soil.

I dont claim it to be superior than using synthetic fertilizers, but whether its a progression of skill or results fro technique, its doing something.

All you strictly soil guys sure do get defensive when something new comes around!

View attachment 3381205
View attachment 3381206 This Is the point View attachment 3381205

those are beautiful!
Looks a LOT like a kali i grew a lil while ago, only mine wasn't so crusty, those are some serious trichomes.
I have never ever said you can't grow fantastic herb with chemicals, in fact the most beautiful nugs i have ever seen were grown with chems.
BUT, never, ever have i seen a hydro-chem grown nug smoke as good or taste as good as well-grown organics.
now organic hydroponics are different, but you don't see that method much, and kudos to you for doing it.

 

[st0wandgrow]

The point is results. Last few years my organic hydro has produced very nice flowers. I still inoculate, but with much less effeciency than soil.

I dont claim it to be superior than using synthetic fertilizers, but whether its a progression of skill or results fro technique, its doing something.

All you strictly soil guys sure do get defensive when something new comes around!

View attachment 3381205
View attachment 3381206 This Is the point View attachment 3381205

You can take it however you want. I don't feel that I'm being defensive. If something is working for you, then rock on. You're right in saying that the results are the most important thing.

What I'm trying to point out is that it's not really "organics". You would agree that the foundation of organics is the relationship between the microbes and the plant? This relationship has been going on for millions of years, and it's what we're trying to mimic indoors. Allowing the plant to take full control of the micro-herd, and use it to it's benefit.

What you're doing is no different than using salts. You're bi-passing the soil food web and directly feeding the plant. The nutrients are already plant available and do not require microbial intervention for plant uptake.

We can debate which approach is best, but that's not really why I posted what I did. I was simply highlighting the differences. I believe I even said "I'm not saying my way is better, or that you're doing something wrong". I have smoked herb grown in many different fashions, and some of it grown hydroponically, or with salts, has been fantastic herb. I just so happen to prefer the way I do it.

Anyway, your buds look very nice. Happy growing....

 

[st0wandgrow]

The *product* that you're using is organic, yes. But why bother? It makes absolutely no difference to your plant wether you use a synthetic source of N or enzymatically processed alfalfa meal. It is taken up in exactly the same form.

um yes,its a big difference,,,,dont say shit when you dont know,,,,,it can fuck someones whole grow!
if u use that product in hydro vs soil your plants are fed very differently...in soil the microbes break it down and feed the soil,in hydro you are directly feeding the plant.....get it?

Um, no it's not! No matter what you use for nutrients, the plant will take it up in EXACTLY the same form. In the case of of true living organic soil, through mineralization, the organic compounds are broken down and become plant available in the same elemental form as synthetics, or liquid organic nutrients.

I'm quite aware of the differences between salts and organic meals, and how those are processed by the SFW (or not), but the comment you chose to respond to is 100% factually correct.

 

[hydroMD]

You can take it however you want. I don't feel that I'm being defensive. If something is working for you, then rock on. You're right in saying that the results are the most important thing.

What I'm trying to point out is that it's not really "organics". You would agree that the foundation of organics is the relationship between the microbes and the plant? This relationship has been going on for millions of years, and it's what we're trying to mimic indoors. Allowing the plant to take full control of the micro-herd, and use it to it's benefit.

What you're doing is no different than using salts. You're bi-passing the soil food web and directly feeding the plant. The nutrients are already plant available and do not require microbial intervention for plant uptake.

We can debate which approach is best, but that's not really why I posted what I did. I was simply highlighting the differences. I believe I even said "I'm not saying my way is better, or that you're doing something wrong". I have smoked herb grown in many different fashions, and some of it grown hydroponically, or with salts, has been fantastic herb. I just so happen to prefer the way I do it.

Anyway, your buds look very nice. Happy growing....

I took nothing you said as offensive. Fat alburt should eat a sock though

I agree that microbes go hand in hand with organics.

The only point i was making is that people being scared of chemicals is the only reason growing organic hydro is great. You dont *need* soil and microbes to get the label.

I still get to run dwc, but also get to label buds as 'organic'

I dont sell it, but if I did people would pay more just for the label... just like any organic produce.

 

[hydroMD]

Um, no it's not! No matter what you use for nutrients, the plant will take it up in EXACTLY the same form. In the case of of true living organic soil, through mineralization, the organic compounds are broken down and become plant available in the same elemental form as synthetics, or liquid organic nutrients.

I'm quite aware of the differences between salts and organic meals, and how those are processed by the SFW (or not), but the comment you chose to respond to is 100% factually correct.

Thank you!!!

Couldn't have said it better

 

[hydroMD]

Bottle-feed, and the microbe / plant relationship is compromised / lost to some degree. That's a fact.

If someone doesn't value this microbial arrangement that is free to all, then that's cool.

Agreed, but my soil mothers usually stay in pots for 6 Months to a year... I dont run big enough pots to sustain nutrients that long.

@rory420420 @stowandgrow

Can I just top dress with cooked soil as time goes? Or should I shorten my mothers lifespan to get the best bang for my time?

I knew feeding hindered microbes, but I had always thought they'd be so far along at that point that when I transplanted into cooked soil to flower my microbes would kickstart up again.

Shed any light on this for me?

 

[st0wandgrow]

Agreed, but my soil mothers usually stay in pots for 6 Months to a year... I dont run big enough pots to sustain nutrients that long.

@rory420420 @stowandgrow

Can I just top dress with cooked soil as time goes? Or should I shorten my mothers lifespan to get the best bang for my time?

I knew feeding hindered microbes, but I had always thought they'd be so far along at that point that when I transplanted into cooked soil to flower my microbes would kickstart up again.

Shed any light on this for me?

Do you up-pot that mother on occasion, or do any root pruning? That's what I used to do to keep mother plants around long term. Now I just take an extra cut every 3'rd or 4'th cycle and replace the old mama with a new one. I ran in to issues where the stems would become woody and rigid and didn't clone as well, so I just started swapping it out more fequently.

But yeah, a top dress with some new soil/ewc should keep that micro-herd at peak capacity and keep your mother plant in good condition.

 

[hydroMD]

Do you up-pot that mother on occasion, or do any root pruning? That's what I used to do to keep mother plants around long term. Now I just take an extra cut every 3'rd or 4'th cycle and replace the old mama with a new one. I ran in to issues where the stems would become woody and rigid and didn't clone as well, so I just started swapping it out more fequently.

But yeah, a top dress with some new soil/ewc should keep that micro-herd at peak capacity and keep your mother plant in good condition.

My best cut was from a feminized seed... always scared of genetic drift or hermaphroditing so trybto keep mothers longer.

Even though I dont believe in genetic drift lol