Which Male to Use

[WattSaver]

I'm hoping that someone has some insight concerning Male speed. Seems like with every breeding project I do. I'll have a super speedy male, and then sometimes I'll also get a slower maturing male. Just based on the speed of maturing is there an obvious choice? I've generally gone with the speedy gonzales, thinking it may reduce flowering time. But I really have no idea.

 

[indicat33]

I'm hoping that someone has some insight concerning Male speed. Seems like with every breeding project I do. I'll have a super speedy male, and then sometimes I'll also get a slower maturing male. Just based on the speed of maturing is there an obvious choice? I've generally gone with the speedy gonzales, thinking it may reduce flowering time. But I really have no idea.

I had an Afghani male last run that I used to make seeds. Only a couple of pollen sacs opened, and the rest stubbornly remained closed. Naturally, I took those 2 early sacs and used the pollen to hit my select females with it. I'm new to breeding, so I am happy with my results (fresh, viable seeds) but I am not sure about the answer to your question. Maybe a more experienced breeder can chime-in here.

 

[BDOGKush]

I believe faster growing males put more energy into fiber production, resulting in less psychoactive properties.

 

[greenghost420]

only way to know is use the 2 males on 2 identical clones. id use as many sets of clones as i could to get better test results. im skeptical of faster males being more like hemp, but i could be wrong

 

[WattSaver]

Well I popped a 5 pack of 9 lb Hammer, got 2 males. I've got 2 clones of all 5 plants. So next run I'll try both pollens on the same plants and see what I get.

 

[greenghost420]

let the males go long in flower too, youll be shocked

 

[WattSaver]

let the males go long in flower too, youll be shocked

I know what you mean, I had a Bay-11 grow only 2 of 10 males, one followed the general make-up of all other girls, with the other all leaf turned turned a deep purple, maybe even black at wk 6. This male made 2 great crosses.
If you're interested in the Bay-11 I did a smoke report awhile back LINK it does show the F2 at the end.

 

[greenghost420]

i hAd some bay11 freebie, i was excited but just neglected em. but u know what i mean bout the male wowwing u then, shits awesome how they throw expressions like a fem as they flower

 

[bf80255]

I'm hoping that someone has some insight concerning Male speed. Seems like with every breeding project I do. I'll have a super speedy male, and then sometimes I'll also get a slower maturing male. Just based on the speed of maturing is there an obvious choice? I've generally gone with the speedy gonzales, thinking it may reduce flowering time. But I really have no idea.

gotta do a progeny test
short of that though, rate of maturation is just a single trait and I agree with greenghost a speedy male isnt necessarily hemp dominant, but it could be... it could also be indica dominant, who knows?

 

[elkamino]

I'm hoping that someone has some insight concerning Male speed. Seems like with every breeding project I do. I'll have a super speedy male, and then sometimes I'll also get a slower maturing male. Just based on the speed of maturing is there an obvious choice? I've generally gone with the speedy gonzales, thinking it may reduce flowering time. But I really have no idea.

Here's what Subcool's said about male selection:
"...(t)he recessive drug traits we seek are stashed away in non-vigorous males. Think about the plant in the wild, the natural progression of Cannabis is back to Hemp. The drugs strains we have today are a direct result of human intervention. Robert Clark says it better “In the wild, the early males always win the breeding contest. Without proper selection, these early males cause "acclimatization" of the variety, and a decrease in drug quality. This is the "dominant" state of Cannabis. If it were otherwise, why would we need breeders? All you would have to do is let the plants do their own thing and they would become more potent over time, but they don't. The only way drug varieties ever get better is through human intervention in the natural order.”
So, in order to find these recessive traits we choose males based loosely on the following. At time of germination are there any capitate trichomes on the cotyledon leaves? The number and frequency of non-glandular trichomes; this can be a great indicator of future glandular production. The earliest males to show sex get tossed, no ifs ands or buts. Dominant males are useless for drug (misuse of this rule has caused more hermaphrodite strains than the world deserves) Cannabis. If these basics are followed during each male selection process, then this gives us a much better chance of finding the genes we want. This is not meant to be a guide for anyone, just a basic explanation of what a “Cannabis Breeder” looks for when selecting strains to work with and/or improve upon."

LINK:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/subcools-breeding-better-cannabis.48785/

And here's Ed Rosenthal, via Cannabis Culture:
"Although males don't produce buds, you can learn a lot about them by the way they grow and mature, and by their odor. Look for the odoriferous plants. They are more likely to be potent. Unless a plant has specific novel or unusual traits, choose only the progeny of healthy, vigorous plants. Be merciless in your selection process and don't let sentimentality interfere with your goals.

Look at the plant parts under an 8x or greater magnification loupe to see which has the most glands. Look at the leaves near the flowers to see which has the most glands and note their bulb size. Dry some of these leaves and test them.

You should also consider how the male compliments the female it will be used to pollinate. Will the two plants' styles fight each other or produce a vigorous hybrid? Will the plant you are considering help to get you closer to the plant you are trying to develop?"

LINK:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3446.html

 

[bf80255]

Here's what Subcool's said about male selection:
"...(t)he recessive drug traits we seek are stashed away in non-vigorous males. Think about the plant in the wild, the natural progression of Cannabis is back to Hemp. The drugs strains we have today are a direct result of human intervention. Robert Clark says it better “In the wild, the early males always win the breeding contest. Without proper selection, these early males cause "acclimatization" of the variety, and a decrease in drug quality. This is the "dominant" state of Cannabis. If it were otherwise, why would we need breeders? All you would have to do is let the plants do their own thing and they would become more potent over time, but they don't. The only way drug varieties ever get better is through human intervention in the natural order.”
So, in order to find these recessive traits we choose males based loosely on the following. At time of germination are there any capitate trichomes on the cotyledon leaves? The number and frequency of non-glandular trichomes; this can be a great indicator of future glandular production. The earliest males to show sex get tossed, no ifs ands or buts. Dominant males are useless for drug (misuse of this rule has caused more hermaphrodite strains than the world deserves) Cannabis. If these basics are followed during each male selection process, then this gives us a much better chance of finding the genes we want. This is not meant to be a guide for anyone, just a basic explanation of what a “Cannabis Breeder” looks for when selecting strains to work with and/or improve upon."

LINK:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/subcools-breeding-better-cannabis.48785/

And here's Ed Rosenthal, via Cannabis Culture:
"Although males don't produce buds, you can learn a lot about them by the way they grow and mature, and by their odor. Look for the odoriferous plants. They are more likely to be potent. Unless a plant has specific novel or unusual traits, choose only the progeny of healthy, vigorous plants. Be merciless in your selection process and don't let sentimentality interfere with your goals.

Look at the plant parts under an 8x or greater magnification loupe to see which has the most glands. Look at the leaves near the flowers to see which has the most glands and note their bulb size. Dry some of these leaves and test them.

You should also consider how the male compliments the female it will be used to pollinate. Will the two plants' styles fight each other or produce a vigorous hybrid? Will the plant you are considering help to get you closer to the plant you are trying to develop?"

LINK:
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3446.html

I would take anything regarding breeding from Sub with a grain of salt, not knocking the guy I just dont think hes that knowledgeable of a breeder (he only makes crosses and uses elites)
Ive read a lot of his stuff and even heard him speak on the subject and.... im not convinced.
DJ tho! that man knows his genetics!

 

[elkamino]

I would take anything regarding breeding from Sub with a grain of salt, not knocking the guy I just dont think hes that knowledgeable of a breeder

Perhaps. But he is quoting R C Clarke here.

 

[bf80255]

Perhaps. But he is quoting R C Clarke here.

thanks for the non aggressive reply
ppl get butthurt when you talk about there breeders lol

in all seriousness though, I just dont beleive Mr.Clarke is right about the whole weak males being good males theory its full of holes.

by his logic every weak plant should be a highly psychoactive drug plant but as weve seen for the past 30 or so years cannabis gene pools have gotten more potent (with the introduction of landrace genetics and intense selection[think 26% critical]) and still the most major contribution has not been the potency but the yield and how do you increase yield? choose plants that grow vigorously and produce a lot (not weak plants imo [think skunk or big bud])

just seems like faulty stoner science IMVHO I bet Sam Skunkman who actually grew out tens of thousands of plants at a time while developing skunk back in the day would disagree as well.

 

[elkamino]

by his logic every weak plant should be a highly psychoactive drug plant but as weve seen for the past 30 or so years cannabis gene pools have gotten more potent (with the introduction of landrace genetics and intense selection[think 26% critical]) and still the most major contribution has not been the potency but the yield and how do you increase yield? choose plants that grow vigorously and produce a lot (not weak plants imo [think skunk or big bud])

First off I am an enthusiast and not any kind of scientist, and I have only a few experiences breeding cannabis. I believe I understand this "weak male" theory but clearly I'm using other's info.

As I understand it, I believe you're overstating when you say "every weak plant should be a highly psychoactive drug plant." Its more that in the wild, the "best" males are likely selected for characteristics other than cannabinoid production. You know, survival of the fittest: strains will be most successful at creating seeds when their genetics are selected for things like hardiness, stem strength, drought resistance etc, aka the Best Males.

These most vigorous, "best" males will likely be best at survival, but perhaps not for trichome yield or terpene production. The theory is that you're more likely to find the recessive traits you're looking for, aka "drug cannabis" traits, in these lesser-looking males than you are in the ones that are clearly fiber-superior.

 

[WattSaver]

Thanks for the great discussion. I can see both sides of the early male theory's. The speedy male I had this time started to throw balls within 24hr of the flip. One of it's clones threw balls within a wk of going from 24/7 and 18/6


I'm thinking this may be too fast, then again if I could get a female to start flower before the 4th of July I could finish something outdoors without freeze protection.

 

[greenghost420]

i like how ed says to smoke the leaves n try it! im gonna start doing this. or just make hash from the males n choose who makes the most potent or flavorful. no better way then to see what hes bringing....besides growing his childrens

 

[bf80255]

First off I am an enthusiast and not any kind of scientist, and I have only a few experiences breeding cannabis. I believe I understand this "weak male" theory but clearly I'm using other's info.

As I understand it, I believe you're overstating when you say "every weak plant should be a highly psychoactive drug plant." Its more that in the wild, the "best" males are likely selected for characteristics other than cannabinoid production. You know, survival of the fittest: strains will be most successful at creating seeds when their genetics are selected for things like hardiness, stem strength, drought resistance etc, aka the Best Males.

These most vigorous, "best" males will likely be best at survival, but perhaps not for trichome yield or terpene production. The theory is that you're more likely to find the recessive traits you're looking for, aka "drug cannabis" traits, in these lesser-looking males than you are in the ones that are clearly fiber-superior.

well thats the logic hes following, its been my experience that a population will generally have a wide mix of all the traits in that gene pool depending on how well fixed they are (F3, F4, F5 etc) and to generalize in such a fashion is folly.

everyone wishes you could judge males based off of vegetative characteristics to save time and money actually having to grow them out but its just not possible without lab equipment or experienced selection towards traits of interest such as flower time (which males do have an effect on so if you want to reduce flower time and eliminate all your fast males what do you think the longer to flower males will contribute? right, slower flowering genes), trichome production, color, vigor, leaf shape or things of that nature but I can assure you that unless your goal is to extend flower time, eliminating every "speedy" male is a NO NO. thats almost intentionally going to cause some genetic drift, especially in populations of cannabis which at least here in the states rarely exceed 100 or more per generation. for reference regular plant breeders usually use at least 10,000 plants for selections.

I do however cull the fastest 5% unless they have some trait of interest im after, to ensure that I dont breed in a propensity for males to blow there balls before ive had a chance to sort through them

 

[thenotsoesoteric]

thanks for the non aggressive reply
ppl get butthurt when you talk about there breeders lol

in all seriousness though, I just dont beleive Mr.Clarke is right about the whole weak males being good males theory its full of holes.

by his logic every weak plant should be a highly psychoactive drug plant but as weve seen for the past 30 or so years cannabis gene pools have gotten more potent (with the introduction of landrace genetics and intense selection[think 26% critical]) and still the most major contribution has not been the potency but the yield and how do you increase yield? choose plants that grow vigorously and produce a lot (not weak plants imo [think skunk or big bud])

just seems like faulty stoner science IMVHO I bet Sam Skunkman who actually grew out tens of thousands of plants at a time while developing skunk back in the day would disagree as well.

Sam actually took those thousands of seeds from the dumpster of Sacred Seeds in california after that groups bust. Magically Sam was the only one from the group that didn't get busted. Then he shows up in Europe with DEA backing. Sam didn't develop skunk, other breeders did.

 

[elkamino]

I do however cull the fastest 5%

Wow... wish I could be working in that small of percentages!

Thanks for the insight, appreciate your thoughts.

 

[bf80255]

Sam actually took those thousands of seeds from the dumpster of Sacred Seeds in california after that groups bust. Magically Sam was the only one from the group that didn't get busted. Then he shows up in Europe with DEA backing. Sam didn't develop skunk, other breeders did.

okay and what about the generations he grew himself? that he has photographic evidence of? or his extensive knowledge on cannabis or the fact that with all that "DEA backing" now he has access to more advanced gas chromatography and lab shit regarding cannabis than most any breeder alive?

you shouldnt speak ill of a legend man, hes put in his time and work.