some LED strip light info. strip types, wiring, adapters,etc. 5630-specific
- Thread starter liesandlies
- Start date
Randomblame
Well-Known Member
This cheap Ebay dimmer costs 3$ and is perfect for 10-12A, what means you can dim a 120-150w power supply properly with one of these.
It's not important to reduce the voltage in my opinion, because the temps are allways below 45°C and I have 107 real watts(750led's) on a simple 14" x 22" alu-sheet. With 72w I got only 35°C on the backsite.
For a 240w light, I would take a thicker sheet, maybe 2 or 3mm, and simply stick a couple of U-profiles on the back.
The airflow inside the box will do the rest!
In addition the hard-stripes provide a much better heat-spread because they already mounted on a 1mm aluminum carrier. Also the voltage loss into the hardstripes is significantly lower when you form longer chains than 1-2m.
For my next project I will use 10m coolwhite, 10m warmwhite and 5m of a red Stripe powered in two strings with a 300w pc power supply.
One string with 5m cool and 5m warmwhite for vegging and on the second string again 5m cw and ww + 5m red, which I can add in flowering.
The only thing that bothers me is that there are only 630nm red stripes but no 660nm at least for SMD5630.
It's not important to reduce the voltage in my opinion, because the temps are allways below 45°C and I have 107 real watts(750led's) on a simple 14" x 22" alu-sheet. With 72w I got only 35°C on the backsite.
For a 240w light, I would take a thicker sheet, maybe 2 or 3mm, and simply stick a couple of U-profiles on the back.
The airflow inside the box will do the rest!
In addition the hard-stripes provide a much better heat-spread because they already mounted on a 1mm aluminum carrier. Also the voltage loss into the hardstripes is significantly lower when you form longer chains than 1-2m.
For my next project I will use 10m coolwhite, 10m warmwhite and 5m of a red Stripe powered in two strings with a 300w pc power supply.
One string with 5m cool and 5m warmwhite for vegging and on the second string again 5m cw and ww + 5m red, which I can add in flowering.
The only thing that bothers me is that there are only 630nm red stripes but no 660nm at least for SMD5630.
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liesandlies
Active Member
Wow, nice to see this thread grew roots.
I moved onto a manufactured led light (now trying to figure how to cool it quietly), but a few pieces of info to add for the strips and diy...
5050 flex strips do come in 120led/m, and they can compare similarly to the rigid 5630 72led/m strips
in terms of watts(lumens) per distance... depending on the exact resistors used on each.
That is one issue - many of the strips (or any led light) are assembled to run at lower than their maximum wattage, and different makers use different resistors so the actual wattage varies. (And some of the sellers list conflicting specs on the wattage and other specs).
Factors affecting the actual wattage of a led strip
-afai have seen, the flex strips and rigid strips seem to use the same 'wire' thickness for the circuit. so that factor is maybe always the same for all strips.
-the resistor used, can be different. What matters is the ohms of the resistor. The lower the ohm rating (resistance), the more wattage will go thru/ more wattage be actually used. Each resistor has a code printed on it, and there are online code translators to translate it into ohms. Lower ohms = more wattage used = more lumens.
(-and of course, combining the circuit itself, with the wattage loss due to distance of the run. .5m is best. For 1m lengths, double-feed or center-feed, if possible.. to get the same wattage as using .5m lengths )
1m length
(+-)----------(+-) (double feed)
or
-----(+-)----- (center feed)
gives the same watts per distance as
.5m length
(+-)----- (end fed)
The only way to know the actual wattage is by reviews that measured the wattage on a specific item (using kill-a-watt, etc), or to get the resistor code (ohms) on the strip and calculate the wattage (and keep in mind the wattage loss over distance), or get a strip and measure it.
Benefits of leds over cfl..
all of the watts (lumens) of leds are focused at plant-efficient color wavelengths. a cfl provides a wider range of wavelengths, compared to a more focused range from LEDs.
a 6500 blue or 2700 red from a cfl is a broad spectrum of colors,, not the same pure blue or red that an led can give.
(though cfl will give a wider spectrum... though though a few grows posted have already shown that usual blue strips and red strips can grow healthy plants the whole way. (veg seems to be easy, even with only cool white or warm white. flowering seems to require making sure there is 'enough' red.)
Plus, with leds, they can use lenses, to put 93% of the lumens right where they are pointed, in a 5 degrees, 10, 15, 30, 45, 60, 90, 120 degree angle. Just attach whatever angle lens will extend to the width of the plant canopy, and no light will be lost by sideways dispersal... similar to a laser-pointer With cfls, a reflector guides the light, but after it is past the reflector, the light can disperse ouwards.
Even with lenses, reflective walls still are helpful to capture the light that bounces off the plant, and reflect it back.
Some strips have no lens and spread the light at 180 degrees... helpful when the distance to plant is zero, but will cause a lot of lost lumens(watts) when the plants are any distance away.
To use led lenses, they can be thought of as creating spotlights of a color. Make sure the spotlights of different colors are overlapped, so all parts of the plant will receive all colors.
.. a 60 degree lens, will create a spotlight of 7" diameter, at a distance of 6". The farther the lens is from the plants, the wider the diameter will be.
(measuring 90 degree and 45 degree angles is easy using paper or anything with a right angle. Otherwise a protractor makes any other angles easy to measure.)
1. First figure the minimum distance the plants may get to the lights.
2. Look at the led array, and figure what angles are needed, so that all of the plant canopy/grow area (*at the minimum distance), will receive all the led colors. (If an led array has a lot of red and blue, and only a little white.. the white leds may need a wider lens than the blue and red leds, since each white led will have to cover more area.)
3. Once those angles are known, that's it. They will adequately provide all colors to the entire grow space, at the minimum distance. Any further distance away, some of the 'spotlights' will shine larger than the grow area.. but there will be much less light leaving the grow area than there was with no lens. (and reflective walls can recapture any escaped light).
Don't fret with finding the perfect angle. The goal is just to direct much more of the light directly to the grow area.. unless you enjoy being precise
You just want to cover the entire grow area, and 'save' alot of lumens from being lost.
Within a cabinet with reflective walls, lumens being lost is less of an issue... but each bounce off the walls does lose 10% of the lumens (90% reflectivity), so why using lenses can still be advantageous.
Lenses can be as little as 25 cents each or so.
I moved onto a manufactured led light (now trying to figure how to cool it quietly), but a few pieces of info to add for the strips and diy...
5050 flex strips do come in 120led/m, and they can compare similarly to the rigid 5630 72led/m strips
in terms of watts(lumens) per distance... depending on the exact resistors used on each.
That is one issue - many of the strips (or any led light) are assembled to run at lower than their maximum wattage, and different makers use different resistors so the actual wattage varies. (And some of the sellers list conflicting specs on the wattage and other specs).
Factors affecting the actual wattage of a led strip
-afai have seen, the flex strips and rigid strips seem to use the same 'wire' thickness for the circuit. so that factor is maybe always the same for all strips.
-the resistor used, can be different. What matters is the ohms of the resistor. The lower the ohm rating (resistance), the more wattage will go thru/ more wattage be actually used. Each resistor has a code printed on it, and there are online code translators to translate it into ohms. Lower ohms = more wattage used = more lumens.
(-and of course, combining the circuit itself, with the wattage loss due to distance of the run. .5m is best. For 1m lengths, double-feed or center-feed, if possible.. to get the same wattage as using .5m lengths )
1m length
(+-)----------(+-) (double feed)
or
-----(+-)----- (center feed)
gives the same watts per distance as
.5m length
(+-)----- (end fed)
The only way to know the actual wattage is by reviews that measured the wattage on a specific item (using kill-a-watt, etc), or to get the resistor code (ohms) on the strip and calculate the wattage (and keep in mind the wattage loss over distance), or get a strip and measure it.
Benefits of leds over cfl..
all of the watts (lumens) of leds are focused at plant-efficient color wavelengths. a cfl provides a wider range of wavelengths, compared to a more focused range from LEDs.
a 6500 blue or 2700 red from a cfl is a broad spectrum of colors,, not the same pure blue or red that an led can give.
(though cfl will give a wider spectrum... though though a few grows posted have already shown that usual blue strips and red strips can grow healthy plants the whole way. (veg seems to be easy, even with only cool white or warm white. flowering seems to require making sure there is 'enough' red.)
Plus, with leds, they can use lenses, to put 93% of the lumens right where they are pointed, in a 5 degrees, 10, 15, 30, 45, 60, 90, 120 degree angle. Just attach whatever angle lens will extend to the width of the plant canopy, and no light will be lost by sideways dispersal... similar to a laser-pointer With cfls, a reflector guides the light, but after it is past the reflector, the light can disperse ouwards.
Even with lenses, reflective walls still are helpful to capture the light that bounces off the plant, and reflect it back.
Some strips have no lens and spread the light at 180 degrees... helpful when the distance to plant is zero, but will cause a lot of lost lumens(watts) when the plants are any distance away.
To use led lenses, they can be thought of as creating spotlights of a color. Make sure the spotlights of different colors are overlapped, so all parts of the plant will receive all colors.
.. a 60 degree lens, will create a spotlight of 7" diameter, at a distance of 6". The farther the lens is from the plants, the wider the diameter will be.
(measuring 90 degree and 45 degree angles is easy using paper or anything with a right angle. Otherwise a protractor makes any other angles easy to measure.)
1. First figure the minimum distance the plants may get to the lights.
2. Look at the led array, and figure what angles are needed, so that all of the plant canopy/grow area (*at the minimum distance), will receive all the led colors. (If an led array has a lot of red and blue, and only a little white.. the white leds may need a wider lens than the blue and red leds, since each white led will have to cover more area.)
3. Once those angles are known, that's it. They will adequately provide all colors to the entire grow space, at the minimum distance. Any further distance away, some of the 'spotlights' will shine larger than the grow area.. but there will be much less light leaving the grow area than there was with no lens. (and reflective walls can recapture any escaped light).
Don't fret with finding the perfect angle. The goal is just to direct much more of the light directly to the grow area.. unless you enjoy being precise
You just want to cover the entire grow area, and 'save' alot of lumens from being lost. Within a cabinet with reflective walls, lumens being lost is less of an issue... but each bounce off the walls does lose 10% of the lumens (90% reflectivity), so why using lenses can still be advantageous.
Lenses can be as little as 25 cents each or so.
liesandlies
Active Member
bicit, it all depends on the use. Making a quick and easy diy array or playing around, vs setting up a lighting panel/design that is meant to last for a long time.
quick and easy - just make sure the seller has a lot of reviews and almost all are positive. quick and easy is like buying a incandescent light bulb - there's not much focus on exact specs - you just want it approximately bright enough, and aren't researching the exact specs of the wiring and components. just get a bulb that has good reviews.
the light strips seem to be all almost the same.. just sometimes a difference in the resistor used. maybe they use different brands of leds.
Likely most of these no-brand strips are constructed as inexpensively as possible, and for that reason, are likely very similar.
Finding strips with a lower ohm resistor (get get more watts(lumens) is the only clear and easy thing that I can think of that can be checked.
alixpres, amzn, eby... search the web, and be aware that the listed specs aren't always correct or meaningful. so just try to find a seller who has good ratings, and the listing has clear information, and none of it conflicts.
How to get the most out of strips?
- use 5050 or 5630 strips (preferably 5630)
- use short runs, of 1m or .5m
- wire multiple runs in parallel
- have the leds as close to the foliage as possible, or use lenses
aim for 40watts + per square foot of area. 40watts reaching the foliage (light that is lost to the sides or doesn't reach the foliage is not counted)
also could
-use in a small enclosed space with reflective walls (white paint, white&black panda plastic, mylar).. to minimize the amount of light that can be lost.
Just start some experience - get any blue or white strip, and try it out with tomato seeds.. just quick and cheap and simple. Put it in a cardboard box and get a feel for it... add some experience to theory.
quick and easy - just make sure the seller has a lot of reviews and almost all are positive. quick and easy is like buying a incandescent light bulb - there's not much focus on exact specs - you just want it approximately bright enough, and aren't researching the exact specs of the wiring and components. just get a bulb that has good reviews.
the light strips seem to be all almost the same.. just sometimes a difference in the resistor used. maybe they use different brands of leds.
Likely most of these no-brand strips are constructed as inexpensively as possible, and for that reason, are likely very similar.
Finding strips with a lower ohm resistor (get get more watts(lumens) is the only clear and easy thing that I can think of that can be checked.
alixpres, amzn, eby... search the web, and be aware that the listed specs aren't always correct or meaningful. so just try to find a seller who has good ratings, and the listing has clear information, and none of it conflicts.
How to get the most out of strips?
- use 5050 or 5630 strips (preferably 5630)
- use short runs, of 1m or .5m
- wire multiple runs in parallel
- have the leds as close to the foliage as possible, or use lenses
aim for 40watts + per square foot of area. 40watts reaching the foliage (light that is lost to the sides or doesn't reach the foliage is not counted)
also could
-use in a small enclosed space with reflective walls (white paint, white&black panda plastic, mylar).. to minimize the amount of light that can be lost.
Just start some experience - get any blue or white strip, and try it out with tomato seeds.. just quick and cheap and simple. Put it in a cardboard box and get a feel for it... add some experience to theory.
I don't think that's meaningful. People buy strip lighting to illuminate their car interiors, kitchen countertops, etc. Their standards are much lower than growing where we care about suitability of spectrum, lumens per watt.
It's probably better to buy 5630 (I believe that's the real Sumsung product) from Mouser or Digikey. At least there would be a baseline to compare the generic 5730 to.
(I wouldn't mention SMD5050. They're only around 60-80lm/w where 5630/5730 is ~100-120.).
bicit
Well-Known Member
There in-lies the problem. I just got off a chat session with a rep with a company who was bewildered by inquires about the efficiency of their units. It's rather frustrating the main focus is lumens per foot and led spacing, rather than actual efficiency. The general attitude is 'well it's better than incandescent' and leave it at that.
Here's the Main differences I could think of that would effect the output.
Thickness of the PCB
Quality/resistance of the resistor
Quality of the electrical path (think wire gauge, less voltage drop
Quality of the thermal path(quality/thickness of tim applied to the LED)
Number and spacing of the diodes(thermal droop, wiring schematic)
The pcb material. Rigid aluminum, vs flexible copper, vs fiberglass.
quality of the LED's themselves.... Are they genuine? Binning?
Lot's of variables on this one.
Randomblame
Well-Known Member
Nicely, the discussion continues!
I think it is almost impossible to calculate actual performance of each LED in a cheap strip.
From the view point of lumens per watt it is better to run they as low as possible!
Look! One SMD5630 @ 150mA = Ø100lm, the same @ 50mA = Ø40-45lm.
Cooling is negligible, because even when glued directly next to each other they reach max. 50 ° C on a simpl 1mm alu sheet.
Incidentally the viewing angle of SMD5630 / 5730 is 120-130 ° degrees not 180°!
And about lenses!
Even with this type LED is a minimum distance necessary, otherwise they will get bleaching.
A plate with 10m stripes(ø110-120w) in parallel produced at a distance of 20cm approximately 25-30.000lx, which is about 325-390μMol / m² / s (table, converts Lux / micromoles / m / s, cool white x = 0.014 / warm white x = 0.013, see below!) and thats only the factors for cfl's, LED's again a little higher about their efficiency!
With lenses the needed distance will increase further. And frankly, lenses for SMD5630 .... lol ?!
One problem is probably the quality of light as it usually comes not from binned Samsung LED's, so a mix of ww / w / cw and some red stripes are probably the best solution for a good spectrum coverage.
The good of the strip is their flexibility, because theoretically you could create a dome that lights the plants from all sides. Especially in small areas such in a PC-case or something similar that's easy to accomplish.
I think it is almost impossible to calculate actual performance of each LED in a cheap strip.
From the view point of lumens per watt it is better to run they as low as possible!
Look! One SMD5630 @ 150mA = Ø100lm, the same @ 50mA = Ø40-45lm.
Cooling is negligible, because even when glued directly next to each other they reach max. 50 ° C on a simpl 1mm alu sheet.
Incidentally the viewing angle of SMD5630 / 5730 is 120-130 ° degrees not 180°!
And about lenses!
Even with this type LED is a minimum distance necessary, otherwise they will get bleaching.
A plate with 10m stripes(ø110-120w) in parallel produced at a distance of 20cm approximately 25-30.000lx, which is about 325-390μMol / m² / s (table, converts Lux / micromoles / m / s, cool white x = 0.014 / warm white x = 0.013, see below!) and thats only the factors for cfl's, LED's again a little higher about their efficiency!
With lenses the needed distance will increase further. And frankly, lenses for SMD5630 .... lol ?!
One problem is probably the quality of light as it usually comes not from binned Samsung LED's, so a mix of ww / w / cw and some red stripes are probably the best solution for a good spectrum coverage.
The good of the strip is their flexibility, because theoretically you could create a dome that lights the plants from all sides. Especially in small areas such in a PC-case or something similar that's easy to accomplish.
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I agree. Efficiency and quality of spectrum doesn't matter as much because the emission of light can be shaped around the plant. I think that creates an efficiency by itself compared to top-lighting from a single panel.
I use Cree LED lightbulbs and PAR38 spots/floods from Home Depot. They're moderately efficient at around 90lm/w inside the glass diffusion globe (but with the rubber protective coating rubbed off. They're about 100lm/w with the glass globe removed. But, that creates an electrocution hazard.). I had very good results at just 22w/sq ft. I think that was due to light being supplied from the sides; if it had been all toplight it would have required 30w/sq ft for equivalent results.
Another efficiency is that the strip lights point forward. The "lightbulbs" I use are omni-directional, recreating a legacy design with chips pointing in the opposite direction (and then a reflector directs the light where it needs to go -- but causing a loss of lumens).
So, it probably doesn't matter much. @Boatguy posted showing some strip lights he got from Mouser. Maybe he can provide more detail about what he bought, how it compares to the $10 coils on Amazon. If I were fanatical about efficiency (and heat reduction) I'd spend extra to buy from a reputable source like Mouser.
Another factor to consider is the strip's IP rating. Some are relatively heavy-duty with a thick plastic covering, matching end caps. When I considered playing with 5730 I was going to get unprotected strips (I think they have a sprayed on rubber film to at least protect the phosphors from scratching off.). I think there'd be a lot of loss from the IP65 stuff. I think I was looking at IP35.
bicit
Well-Known Member
Well I beg to differ with you. Efficiency always matters, always. Higher efficiency requires less power and material impute for a desired result. The results under high quality cobs is a testament to that.
Thermal path is also going to effect the longevity of the string as well. I read lots of reports about rapid lumen depreciation and early failure with cheap strips largely due to inadequate cooling.
Thermal path is also going to effect the longevity of the string as well. I read lots of reports about rapid lumen depreciation and early failure with cheap strips largely due to inadequate cooling.
From my perspective:
1. Surrounding the plant with light creates its own efficiencies which will exceed 10-30lm/w difference that may exist between the unknown "knockoff" strips and an real (datasheet backed) SMD5630.
2. Since the unknown "knockoffs" are only $12 for 5 meters, there's not a lot at risk to see if they work, or to experiment with affixing to aluminum sheets (as long as a person has backup lighting they can use if the strips fail).
I guess I wouldn't let perfection be the enemy of good. I think someone could easily get locked into "analysis paralysis" when the preponderance of available strips are unknown knockoffs, and the datasheet-backed stuff (strips from a reputable distributor like Mouser) are about 5x the price. It seems like the choice is to gamble $12 on the common stuff, or pay the premium for the less common (but more pedigreed).
Nothing wrong with either choice. But, considering the two points above, I'd give the cheap stuff a whirl before spending a premium on the presumably better strips.
Ultimately, we'll never know if the cheap/common strips work well until someone tries it. If/when someone finds a good strip (and seller), it would be a useful contribution to the community.
alesh
Well-Known Member
Agreed. And there's also the fact that without an integrating sphere it's almost impossible to measure actual efficacy (lm/W).
Where? I.e., how do you know it was really 5630? Some of the non-name stuff is often called "5630/5730" just to catch search queries.
caretak3r
Well-Known Member
aliexpress, plenty of vendors, just pick from someone with plenty of feedback if you are going to order. Regarding whether they are real - 5630 is a reference to the size, and I have bought a fair number of strips from different vendors to know the difference between 5050,5630, etc. 5730 is another story - not sure how many real 5730s are out there.
example vendor:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-10M-X-LED-strip-5630-DC12V-5630-led-strip-lighting-5M-300leds-high-brightness/1818200792.htm
It sound's like you're using the diode's dimensions as the designation (i.e., 5.6mm x 3.0mm). Nothing's actually 5.7mm long? Ergo, there are no "real" SMD5730?
I look at it differently. SMD5630 is a trademark name for Samsung's strip light (a name it generates from the diode's dimensions). Because it is trademarked, clone makers can't use that name. So, they call it 5730. A made up name just to identify with 5630. They might throw in "5630" in the description to help establish that connection via search engines, readers' minds, etc.
IMO, you've been buying 5730 clones if you can't ascertain that they are real, datasheet-backed SMD5630. Nothing wrong with that. 5730s may work as well or better. I don't know. But, just because they measure 5.6x3.0mm doesn't make them SMD5630.
That's my understanding anyway. I could be wrong. I still think this stuff is good. Just not sure how the common $2-$4 per meter "5730" clone stuff compares to real Samsung SMD5630 which costs about $15 per meter. I encourage anyone (like sunny747) to give it a spin. But, if it doesn't work out, I wouldn't hold it against strip lighting generally until real 5630 is tried. Not a big loss at that price. I'd probably try the cheap clone stuff just to work out my methods before investing in real stuff (to see if it differs substantially).
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caretak3r
Well-Known Member
az2000, i was going off info like this:
http://heracolights.com/2014/03/10/3528-vs-5050-vs-5630-led-smd-diodes/
http://heracolights.com/2014/03/10/3528-vs-5050-vs-5630-led-smd-diodes/
That looks like real SMD5630 based upon the price ($52 per 5m roll). Looks like a reputable seller. (I should have followed the link the first time.).
It would be interesting to see how that compares to the clone stuff called 5730 found through most google searches (because they use the term 5630 to catch searches). That stuff is 1/5 the price. Could be ok. I don't know.
@sunny747 is chomping at the bit to try strip lighting. This ought to be all he needs. Buy a meter of what is presumably real 5630 from the link you provided, and some generic "5730" off Amazon, start building some supplemental lighting and get a feel for whether either is a better value.
I'd probably get one of those Meanwell generic 12v power supplies that has a moderate voltage adjustment. I read somewhere they run cooler at 11v but without much noticeable loss of lumens. Obviously that would take some experimentation and metering. (Also worth comparing to a typical pulse-width dimmer.).
You could be right. I found something once which explained it as I described. But, the terms are used so interchangeably that google searches don't provide much info. This page explains something similar. This wiki page says 5730 may be more efficient.
It's puzzling to me because that's how it usually works. There's a known commodity like Cree or Osram, and then knockoffs of unknown pedigree, quality, no backing datasheet. All the strips I've seen which claim to be SMD5630 without any mention of 5730 are 10-12x more expensive (like what you linked to), which is also similar to those other LED products.
I'd encourage anyone trying it to get a foot (or meter) of what you linked to, and a roll of the more commonly available (and less expensive, seemingly generic knockoff) and see how it compares in terms of lux and heat. (Lux-meter apps are available for smartphones.).
This is one reason I haven't delved into it. I wanted to. But, I have plenty of lights, I'm growing more than I need, and just got into the Cree lightbulbs from Home Depot which are plenty good for me. As a hobby I wanted to try SMD. But, it's a little too ambiguous to me. It would be fun to explore. But, at the rate the technology is changing (and considering all the lights I have now), it just doesn't make sense for me to spend a lot of time on it.
@sunny747 is the guy!
It's puzzling to me because that's how it usually works. There's a known commodity like Cree or Osram, and then knockoffs of unknown pedigree, quality, no backing datasheet. All the strips I've seen which claim to be SMD5630 without any mention of 5730 are 10-12x more expensive (like what you linked to), which is also similar to those other LED products.
I'd encourage anyone trying it to get a foot (or meter) of what you linked to, and a roll of the more commonly available (and less expensive, seemingly generic knockoff) and see how it compares in terms of lux and heat. (Lux-meter apps are available for smartphones.).
This is one reason I haven't delved into it. I wanted to. But, I have plenty of lights, I'm growing more than I need, and just got into the Cree lightbulbs from Home Depot which are plenty good for me. As a hobby I wanted to try SMD. But, it's a little too ambiguous to me. It would be fun to explore. But, at the rate the technology is changing (and considering all the lights I have now), it just doesn't make sense for me to spend a lot of time on it.
@sunny747 is the guy!