I helped build a setup for a square tent, 4'x4'. He used 3 of those 4.6" bars /3'long. 3x 3070 ea running at 1.4a with a single fan in the centre of each bar (so very similar). This gave a good coverage, negligable heat but the bars were expensive.. overkill (on h/s and wattage) perhaps. I'm really not sure about the narrower lengths for higher currents, personally i'd build one bar and experiment it's easy to buy/ tedious to sell lighting equipment. The formula's for working out h/s surface area mentioned on here are pretty conservative to keep cob temps well down even passively. Maybe you should ask that specific question (for help on choosing heatsink) separately or in the H/S thread if needed, so many alternatives it's hard to make suggestions without taking the whole grow into mind/ suggesting every part to go with a 'system'. You are right to spread the light as much as possible and low current /many cobs helps.
HLG-185H-C1050B i got too many
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Rahz
Well-Known Member
DoctorFrost
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the pic Rahz, that is a new idea for me. How are those connected, I can't supersize the picture and it is hard to tell for sure. And what wattage are you running for them? Also, does everyone always mount their drivers right next to the COBS like this or is it possible to make your own casing for them and mount them 5-10 feet away? For example - put all of them in an ammo can or something.
Tazbud, I appreciate all of your info, you are very helpful. I will try to find that formula and figure out how it all works. I would be running them at 1.05 instead of 1.4 so it should be a little cooler. I really want to go this route, but I want to use the 3.5" since it is half as cheap as the 4.6" and looks like the best heatsink for the around $1.25 price or lower per inch. But if the smaller heatsinks would work just as good I would go with them too starting out at 32 cents per inch for the 2.079".
Tazbud, I appreciate all of your info, you are very helpful. I will try to find that formula and figure out how it all works. I would be running them at 1.05 instead of 1.4 so it should be a little cooler. I really want to go this route, but I want to use the 3.5" since it is half as cheap as the 4.6" and looks like the best heatsink for the around $1.25 price or lower per inch. But if the smaller heatsinks would work just as good I would go with them too starting out at 32 cents per inch for the 2.079".
ReeferDance
Well-Known Member
Removing the drivers from the light source is a good way to reduce heat. That being said, the drivers do get warm, so packing a bunch of them in a tight space with no cooling may not be the best idea.
3.5" profile is a great heatsink for both passive and active cooling, and a 90mm fan will fit nicely over all the fins.
3.5" profile is a great heatsink for both passive and active cooling, and a 90mm fan will fit nicely over all the fins.
DoctorFrost
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info, Do you have experience with, or know someone who has used the 3.5? I figured it would especially with a fan in the middle of them but just wanted to make sure. Not really an option to buy 1 and try it out as I need to get all of these put together as soon as I possibly can.
For the drivers I was thinking about putting them in an ammo can, or metal case of some sort and putting something inbetween them so they wouldn't be sitting on top of each other and cut a hole in the side of the ammo can and put a higher powered PC fan in it. I just wasn't sure if there was any problems in running the wires a few feet from the cobs to the drivers.
For the drivers I was thinking about putting them in an ammo can, or metal case of some sort and putting something inbetween them so they wouldn't be sitting on top of each other and cut a hole in the side of the ammo can and put a higher powered PC fan in it. I just wasn't sure if there was any problems in running the wires a few feet from the cobs to the drivers.
Doer
Well-Known Member
You want your drivers close to simplify the build and more important keep your wires shorter and thus smaller, lighter, cheaper, etc. Also, unless you do this to building codes you are taking a safety risk.
But, I think @SupraSPL does this with a remote board of drivers. His idea is that he will be rewiring drivers sooner than replacing COBs. But, it is all about your design space. There are good reasons to have all the heat in one spot, and capture it for re-use. That is my next challenge.
Heat is the most expensive byproduct. Even a little re-use is better than nothing.
At a minimum they need to be in an airflow, not in an ammo can.
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Rahz
Well-Known Member
How connected to the frame? Screws and washers hold the sinks to the frame. Zip ties hold the drivers. They're running at 25 watts .7A w Vero 29, nice and cool, though I have tested them with about 40 watts (22 watts of heat dissipation) and gotten near typical temps, also have a similar lamp running 31 watt COBs. 1.05A w Vero 18.
By weight the radial heat sinks perform better than the block heat sinks. A good choice for 30 watts or less if you can get them for a good price.
The driver/s generally goes on the frame but a few extra feet shouldn't hurt if you wanted to do something like that. Check a wire gauge chart to be sure on your distances.
My theory for these lamps was that an equal distribution of drivers and cobs across an air permeable surface would produce a consistent updraft. It runs in a 28x52" tent -w- 150CFM duct booster pulling air from the top and no temp issues.
By weight the radial heat sinks perform better than the block heat sinks. A good choice for 30 watts or less if you can get them for a good price.
The driver/s generally goes on the frame but a few extra feet shouldn't hurt if you wanted to do something like that. Check a wire gauge chart to be sure on your distances.
My theory for these lamps was that an equal distribution of drivers and cobs across an air permeable surface would produce a consistent updraft. It runs in a 28x52" tent -w- 150CFM duct booster pulling air from the top and no temp issues.
DoctorFrost
Well-Known Member
I have been reusing the heat from the HPS but now that it is starting to get warm out that is getting harder to do. The main purpose of these LED's is to be able to keep the room cool this spring/summer. Otherwise I know I am going to have to take out probably half of my light or deal with low quality bud. If I could find a way to reuse it that would be fine, but for now I just want to get rid of as much heat as possible so I can run full power in the room.
I guess I don't need to separate the drivers from the lights I just thought it would be a little cleaner and simpler to build. I don't care about upping the wire gauge if needed, I am not talking about running them 50 feet though just a simple 5-8 ft of wire from the LED's. I tend to always overkill on wiring size just to make sure I am good. I don't know what you mean by remote board of drivers but I will try and find it. There is just so much stuff on LED's it is hard to find everything I need without reading 100s of pages. And the more I have thought about it the more I am in agreement to leave the drivers with the LED's because I am only going to have 2 drivers per every board I build. Either 2 Mean-well HLG 185h or 1 185h and 1 120h. Or possibly those Chinese ones once I find out more about them. As far as I know these are the only 2 Mean-well drivers that are out that run 1050 and has high efficiency?
I really like how you built that Rahz. So you don't think I could get by using passive like that with 36.5 watts - CXB3070 at 1.05 - ? And do the drivers heat up the heatsinks if they are touching them ? I can't tell if yours are or not but if so I can tell it isn't by much. I have an idea going around in my head now. Getting 3 strips of that 3.5" heatsink cut at 30" long. And mounting the drivers in between one of the 3 strips of heatsink. I will only have 2 drivers per 9-10 COBS so it won't be in the way much. I am just unsure of the best way to connect the heatsinks and leave a 6-7" gap in between each one. This is not set in stone, it is simply an idea. If a smaller cheaper heatsink would cool them I would definitely go that route, and I figure it might but if I can't be for sure I am going to try the 3.5 out on my first build with 1 small fan in the middle of every 3.
I guess I don't need to separate the drivers from the lights I just thought it would be a little cleaner and simpler to build. I don't care about upping the wire gauge if needed, I am not talking about running them 50 feet though just a simple 5-8 ft of wire from the LED's. I tend to always overkill on wiring size just to make sure I am good. I don't know what you mean by remote board of drivers but I will try and find it. There is just so much stuff on LED's it is hard to find everything I need without reading 100s of pages. And the more I have thought about it the more I am in agreement to leave the drivers with the LED's because I am only going to have 2 drivers per every board I build. Either 2 Mean-well HLG 185h or 1 185h and 1 120h. Or possibly those Chinese ones once I find out more about them. As far as I know these are the only 2 Mean-well drivers that are out that run 1050 and has high efficiency?
I really like how you built that Rahz. So you don't think I could get by using passive like that with 36.5 watts - CXB3070 at 1.05 - ? And do the drivers heat up the heatsinks if they are touching them ? I can't tell if yours are or not but if so I can tell it isn't by much. I have an idea going around in my head now. Getting 3 strips of that 3.5" heatsink cut at 30" long. And mounting the drivers in between one of the 3 strips of heatsink. I will only have 2 drivers per 9-10 COBS so it won't be in the way much. I am just unsure of the best way to connect the heatsinks and leave a 6-7" gap in between each one. This is not set in stone, it is simply an idea. If a smaller cheaper heatsink would cool them I would definitely go that route, and I figure it might but if I can't be for sure I am going to try the 3.5 out on my first build with 1 small fan in the middle of every 3.
No worries Doc, some of these guys helped me a lot.
The drivers are fairly safe, Ip rated and with protections, most people would just mount them on a board, vertically is best, cool is best, in the way of air movement is best, there will likely be some compromise in any build.
Looks like in series, with only two/9 cobs, you should be fine mounting on the light (as Rahz did), they are high current so the safety will need to be kept in mind (whether wall or light mounted)
They put out heat depending on how much capacity you are using. One i'm using now is actually being used over its rating and is hot but heat from them may not be a big deal in your case.
The 3.5" heatsink has a far lower sink capacity than the larger sinks you mention. That's something you really want to explore further i'd say, some air movement does wonders but you want them to easily handle passive for full lights-on. Still, I was a bit more concerned about the driver than cob (in my situation with those star-sinks above and meanwells HVGC driver (240v))
Really, reading Supras threads (among others) on CXA build and Heatsink, even taking a few hours, is probably the quickest way (not to be an ass, or to not try help further here), there are just so many little options at each stage. You could copy Rahz'z build above, 1.05 would be warm (mine are .7) but I doubt they'd start frying if fans fail (it seems). Still, I wouldn't personally buy up big before knowing for sure (unless you followed/copied one of the other documented working designs from here, possibly the next quickest way ; ))
The drivers are fairly safe, Ip rated and with protections, most people would just mount them on a board, vertically is best, cool is best, in the way of air movement is best, there will likely be some compromise in any build.
Looks like in series, with only two/9 cobs, you should be fine mounting on the light (as Rahz did), they are high current so the safety will need to be kept in mind (whether wall or light mounted)
They put out heat depending on how much capacity you are using. One i'm using now is actually being used over its rating and is hot but heat from them may not be a big deal in your case.
The 3.5" heatsink has a far lower sink capacity than the larger sinks you mention. That's something you really want to explore further i'd say, some air movement does wonders but you want them to easily handle passive for full lights-on. Still, I was a bit more concerned about the driver than cob (in my situation with those star-sinks above and meanwells HVGC driver (240v))
Really, reading Supras threads (among others) on CXA build and Heatsink, even taking a few hours, is probably the quickest way (not to be an ass, or to not try help further here), there are just so many little options at each stage. You could copy Rahz'z build above, 1.05 would be warm (mine are .7) but I doubt they'd start frying if fans fail (it seems). Still, I wouldn't personally buy up big before knowing for sure (unless you followed/copied one of the other documented working designs from here, possibly the next quickest way ; ))
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Rahz
Well-Known Member
I think yes you could passively cool CXB3070 @ 1.05A with those radial sinks or with other profiles. The 22 watts I cited is heat dissipation. The Cob was running almost half that. In fact I've got the results of my test in a post, the exact COB/current you're asking about. Just over 54 degrees which is right at typical temp.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/heat-sink-shootout-heatsinkusas-3-945-vs-4-6.866101/page-2#post-11491108
If you read the post I linked you will see that they weigh substantially less than the others I tested, so whether that style/weight is appealing might factor into your buying decision, as they are more expensive by weight.
The drivers are touching but only dissipating a few watts of heat each so their warmth is barely noticeable. The aluminum frame absorbs heat from the COBs and drivers. Seems like a good thing.
Having all those drivers is good insurance against COB or driver failure. The down side is that they run about 87% efficient. Had I done a bit more research first and felt confident working out a series circuit I probably would have done things differently, getting a bit more efficiency from the driver and spending less at the same time. It's a 350w output lamp so I could have used 2 HLG-185H-C700s, saved $100 and it would be a 370w lamp rather than a 400w lamp.
I'm really happy with how the build turned out though. The small drivers give it a "low profile sexy" look. If I had used the HLGs I probably would have still mounted them on the lamp, though placing them outside the grow space isn't a bad idea.
If you're interested in driver brand alternatives you might want to check out Inventronics. They have similar outdoor aluminum cased drivers -w- 5 year warranty, also available in a 320 watt version. The 320 can be found for $112 if I remember correctly. Also, Meanwell will be releasing a 250w version of the HLG-C in August.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/heat-sink-shootout-heatsinkusas-3-945-vs-4-6.866101/page-2#post-11491108
If you read the post I linked you will see that they weigh substantially less than the others I tested, so whether that style/weight is appealing might factor into your buying decision, as they are more expensive by weight.
The drivers are touching but only dissipating a few watts of heat each so their warmth is barely noticeable. The aluminum frame absorbs heat from the COBs and drivers. Seems like a good thing.
Having all those drivers is good insurance against COB or driver failure. The down side is that they run about 87% efficient. Had I done a bit more research first and felt confident working out a series circuit I probably would have done things differently, getting a bit more efficiency from the driver and spending less at the same time. It's a 350w output lamp so I could have used 2 HLG-185H-C700s, saved $100 and it would be a 370w lamp rather than a 400w lamp.
I'm really happy with how the build turned out though. The small drivers give it a "low profile sexy" look. If I had used the HLGs I probably would have still mounted them on the lamp, though placing them outside the grow space isn't a bad idea.
If you're interested in driver brand alternatives you might want to check out Inventronics. They have similar outdoor aluminum cased drivers -w- 5 year warranty, also available in a 320 watt version. The 320 can be found for $112 if I remember correctly. Also, Meanwell will be releasing a 250w version of the HLG-C in August.
DoctorFrost
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for taking the time. I am soaking up everything I can. And you are correct, I need to just take the time out of the day and try and read as many threads as possible.
I wasn't sure how everything worked with running in series. I suppose the drivers I look at are in series, and you can also find drivers to run in parallel ? Is there any you can run in parallel that is as efficient as the ones ran in series? And one other simple question, if I ran the 185H and had 5 cxb3070 on them would they be running at exactly 36.5 watts (1.05) or would they be running at 40 watts each and slightly higher since it is a 200 watt driver? I am still open to all of this, the only reason i was looking at the 185 and 120 is because that is what has been recommended to me and it is what i have seen the most of so far. I know I am a newb on this, and am trying to use my background skills in other hobbies to help me figure this out but i am a little rusty on the electrical.
Tazbud, I know it is possible for a fan to fail but I am willing to take that chance at the moment as I am trying to save as much money as I can while still being efficient. Later on down the line if I build more it may be a different situation but at the moment I got to make every dollar count yet am still wanting that efficient lighting. I wish that someone would test one of these cheaper heatsinks and see how they do. Even the smallest one they have perhaps. Since Rahz results show that all of the heatsinks he tried are close in temperature maybe it doesn't matter quite so much as some believe? Also I will have 10" of the heatsink per every COB so that gives it more space over the 4" Rahz was testing. I am not saying that will be enough, but if I need to buy anything larger then the 3.5" then it is no longer worth it as I may as well buy the Alpine 11s for $10 (the 3.5s are already more). I just don't want to go that route with a bunch of small heatsinks and a fan for each. Because I need 10" of heatsink per each or else have to find a way to connect 9-10 cobs together each having their own heatsink. Rahz makes it look so easy with the one he built and I do like that, I would just want to run it passively since you would need a fan for each of them.
One other thing, how much does driver efficiency impact everything? I know how the Cob efficiency works and at 1.05 the ones I am going to get will be at 51% efficient. Does the drivers matter just as much? I am going to check out that 320watt one right now. Sounds interesting.
I wasn't sure how everything worked with running in series. I suppose the drivers I look at are in series, and you can also find drivers to run in parallel ? Is there any you can run in parallel that is as efficient as the ones ran in series? And one other simple question, if I ran the 185H and had 5 cxb3070 on them would they be running at exactly 36.5 watts (1.05) or would they be running at 40 watts each and slightly higher since it is a 200 watt driver? I am still open to all of this, the only reason i was looking at the 185 and 120 is because that is what has been recommended to me and it is what i have seen the most of so far. I know I am a newb on this, and am trying to use my background skills in other hobbies to help me figure this out but i am a little rusty on the electrical.
Tazbud, I know it is possible for a fan to fail but I am willing to take that chance at the moment as I am trying to save as much money as I can while still being efficient. Later on down the line if I build more it may be a different situation but at the moment I got to make every dollar count yet am still wanting that efficient lighting. I wish that someone would test one of these cheaper heatsinks and see how they do. Even the smallest one they have perhaps. Since Rahz results show that all of the heatsinks he tried are close in temperature maybe it doesn't matter quite so much as some believe? Also I will have 10" of the heatsink per every COB so that gives it more space over the 4" Rahz was testing. I am not saying that will be enough, but if I need to buy anything larger then the 3.5" then it is no longer worth it as I may as well buy the Alpine 11s for $10 (the 3.5s are already more). I just don't want to go that route with a bunch of small heatsinks and a fan for each. Because I need 10" of heatsink per each or else have to find a way to connect 9-10 cobs together each having their own heatsink. Rahz makes it look so easy with the one he built and I do like that, I would just want to run it passively since you would need a fan for each of them.
One other thing, how much does driver efficiency impact everything? I know how the Cob efficiency works and at 1.05 the ones I am going to get will be at 51% efficient. Does the drivers matter just as much? I am going to check out that 320watt one right now. Sounds interesting.
Doer
Well-Known Member
If you want to rid heat as I do, you will use water. I have a build thread where I drove some here to distaction since I wanted to show the design process from blank slate and blank mind.. Yep, I didn't copy something, I made something up.... then I changed to flowing water, in a 2x2 inch aluminum square tube. 
If this is about density of proper photon flux, and it is, only about that., then the best way to pack in the watts and still keep the junction temp low is water. But, it is a plumbing challenge, and if you have the need to tackle it this way as I did with HPS water light, then you get to reuse the water system, except for the LED fixture which I am building right now.
If this is about density of proper photon flux, and it is, only about that., then the best way to pack in the watts and still keep the junction temp low is water. But, it is a plumbing challenge, and if you have the need to tackle it this way as I did with HPS water light, then you get to reuse the water system, except for the LED fixture which I am building right now.
DoctorFrost
Well-Known Member
I will try finding that. Sounds interesting, something I would do for sure if it works well.
That 320 watt driver was 92% efficient, not too bad at all but the meanwell is 93-94% so may still pay the extra for them. And I never found a price on the 320s.
That 320 watt driver was 92% efficient, not too bad at all but the meanwell is 93-94% so may still pay the extra for them. And I never found a price on the 320s.
Rahz
Well-Known Member
Datasheet is saying 94% efficient. Where did you get the 92% figure?
http://us.inventronics-co.com/upload/EUC-320SxxxDT(ST)_2014101403132659911.PDF
http://us.inventronics-co.com/upload/EUC-320SxxxDT(ST)_2014101403132659911.PDF
Doer
Well-Known Member
Rahz
Well-Known Member
Yes, I was just providing some brand alternative ideas. There was another brand someone mentioned. They had blue anodized casings, but I don't remember the name.
DoctorFrost
Well-Known Member
Rahz, read onto the other pages and it is 94% if you run at 220 but running at 110 (which I would have to) it is only 92%. I wouldn't care to only run 8 cobs or figure something out. I am glad you gave me another option, but I will probably still go with meanwell 185 and 120.
Doer I will look into that thread. Thanks for linking it up. Every day I feel like I am getting a little closer to the knowledge I need for this. Hopefully I can help out people after me figure out what they need.
Doer I will look into that thread. Thanks for linking it up. Every day I feel like I am getting a little closer to the knowledge I need for this. Hopefully I can help out people after me figure out what they need.
Rahz
Well-Known Member
Ahh, I hadn't read that far, thanks for the correction. The Inventronics drivers don't seem to have a price edge on Meanwell anyway.
alesh
Well-Known Member
I'm not convinced that it will work as well as you're saying. Hope you'll prove me wrong. With the high efficiency of the latest COBs I think that using water to take away heat is over complicating and unnecessary. I am getting the price of about $0.1-0.2 per dissipation watt with passive HS (@75cm^2/W).If you want to rid heat as I do, you will use water. I have a build thread where I drove some here to distaction since I wanted to show the design process from blank slate and blank mind.. Yep, I didn't copy something, I made something up.... then I changed to flowing water, in a 2x2 inch aluminum square tube.
If this is about density of proper photon flux, and it is, only about that., then the best way to pack in the watts and still keep the junction temp low is water. But, it is a plumbing challenge, and if you have the need to tackle it this way as I did with HPS water light, then you get to reuse the water system, except for the LED fixture which I am building right now.