LED PAR math

[churchhaze]

What is all this info about? How to measure quantities of light?

Is the plant so picky?

Trying to quantify perfection?

Sorry, not trying to be rude but i see a lot of this as completely unneccessary for growing ganja. Speaking of which....where is the ganja lately.

Slight edit...i do appreciate alesh helping everyone that is interested in this stuff.

I'm actually not sure what you meant by this post. Are you saying that it is unimportant how efficient lamps are at producing PAR? This sounds a lot like an argument for fluorescent, a complete 180 from why I thought you were using LEDS in the first place.

Are you saying that it's unnecessary to take PAR a step further by taking response into consideration, or that it's unnecessary to calculate PAR?

 

[Positivity]

I'm actually not sure what you meant by this post. Are you saying that it is unimportant how efficient lamps are at producing PAR? This sounds a lot like an argument for fluorescent, a complete 180 from why I thought you were using LEDS in the first place.

Are you saying that it's unnecessary to take PAR a step further by taking response into consideration, or that it's unnecessary to calculate PAR?

I'm glad you separated the two. I guess I do think taking par a step further a little unnecessary. At least more a last step..

It of course helps in lighting an area evenly and adequately.

My response was probably more just tired of the amount of theory threads. Not enough growers.. growing and sharing. Starting to remind me of a business class.

Kinda just butted in to.. Sorry. Need to go back and re-read the thread. Been popping in and out..

I do love the way you have been working with par in your environment..

 

[churchhaze]

I'm glad you separated the two. I guess I do think taking par a step further a little unnecessary. At least more a last step..

It of course helps in lighting an area evenly and adequately.

My response was probably more just tired of the amount of theory threads. Not enough growers.. growing and sharing. Starting to remind me of a business class.

Kinda just butted in to.. Sorry. Need to go back and re-read the thread. Been popping in and out..

I do love the way you have been working with par in your environment..

This is exactly the argument that the haters here have been making... I never see you positing in any section other than LED. Could it be that your lack of exposure to actual plant growing threads comes from spending too much time in this section? What you're doing now is borderline troll.

Isn't this the proper section for this type of conversation?

Wouldn't it be like going into the nutrients section and complaining that everyone there talks about nutrient formulas instead of posting journals?

 

[Positivity]

I dunno..

Just remember more grow threads before..

I'll butt out...I apologize

 

[rob333]

OK guys I was hoping I could get a check on my math here:
College was like 25 years ago for me...lol

CBX 3590 72V 3000k x12
1050mA
Using @SupraSPL graph: See spreadsheet post below.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/cob-efficiency-spreadsheets.865238/

Assuming 325 LER

11192.95 LM/COB x 12 = 134315.4 total LM
134315.4 / 325 =413.2781 Total PAR?

4x4=16 ft2
5x5=25 ft2
6x6=36ft2

so 413.2781 / 16 = 25.83 Par/ft2
/ 25 = 16.53 Par/ft2
/ 36 = 11.47 Par/ft2

Are these calculation correct?
Thanks and forgive my newb-ology.

i left school because of math

 

[DoctorDelta9]

I have to admit, its tough to wrap my mind around all of this.
But I always welcome an argument backed by proven data. It expands our minds minds, and makes us think.
I'll tell you this, I've done enough calculations to know that my girls are going to be very happy under the light I will provide!!! As soon as I start construction, I will go back to my original post and post lots of pics and updates through the whole process. Thank you to everyone for the input!

 

[Greengenes707]

Leds and other lighting..."GROWING under leds and other", to be specific.

Not every thread should be a grow. But now days we are lucky to get a single photo of what we spend so much time talking and theorizing about.

Photos and visual documentation is the best and most effective ways to show success to people of all education/understanding levels.

Hard to expect that in a thread called "led par MATH".
But as a whole, this section needs more grows to push led aceptance/adoption.

 

[churchhaze]

Leds and other lighting..."GROWING under leds and other", to be specific.

Not every thread should be a grow. But now days we are lucky to get a single photo of what we spend so much time talking and theorizing about.

Photos and visual documentation is the best and most effective ways to show success to people of all education/understanding levels.

Hard to expect that in a thread called "led par MATH".
But as a whole, this section needs more grows to push led aceptance/adoption.

The reason it's so hard to find actual journal threads is exactly because of it's low rate of adoption. I think you put it best when you say we're lucky to get even a single photo of what we're talking about. (thanks btw)

 

[AquariusPanta]

Better reception of LED growing will inevitably lead to more sales in LED/COB-based fixtures, thus leading to more grow journals, and with more grow journals comes greater acceptance of this technology. All of this, of course, stimulates the degree of efficiency and reliability behind these products, which in turns grows over time.

I do believe that COBS carry with them the rotting bodies of their fellow, monochromatic brethren, and with that foul stench comes a consensus shared by many in the general public that undermines the true potential of what we, as a select group, are experiencing in our grow chambers.

It will be a little longer before COBS go mainstream but it's bound to happen.

 

[churchhaze]

Better reception of LED growing will inevitably lead to more sales in LED/COB-based fixtures, thus leading to more grow journals, and with more grow journals comes greater acceptance of this technology. All of this, of course, stimulates the degree of efficiency and reliability behind these products, which in turns grows over time.

I do believe that COBS carry with them the rotting bodies of their fellow, monochromatic brethren, and with that foul stench comes a consensus shared by many in the general public that undermines the true potential of what we, as a select group, are experiencing in our grow chambers.

It will be a little longer before COBS go mainstream but it's bound to happen.

Yeah, but it's not our responsibility to post pictures of our controversial and/or illegal plants. This is a discussion board where the topic in this section is "Growing with LEDs". Everyone likes journal threads, but it's selfish to taunt people to risk not only themselves, but others in their households who may not agree with showing off pictures just for the sake of convincing some people online, or providing others with entertainment. Just deal with the fact that not everyone is posting journals. If they wanted to, they would. It's nobody's responsibility to provide these grow threads. Everyone likes to show off. I'm sure people have their reasons why they aren't providing you with their photos.

 

[AquariusPanta]

Yeah, but it's not our responsibility to post pictures of our controversial and/or illegal plants. This is a discussion board where the topic in this section is "Growing with LEDs". Everyone likes journal threads, but it's selfish to taunt people to risk not only themselves, but others in their households who may not agree with showing off pictures just for the sake of convincing some people online, or providing others with entertainment. Just deal with the fact that not everyone is posting journals. If they wanted to, they would. It's nobody's responsibility to provide these grow threads. Everyone likes to show off. I'm sure people have their reasons why they aren't providing you with their photos.

I personally could care less if not everyone is posting journals about their grows. Now @Yodaweed is doing something special with his upcoming grow, as you may know, which involves comparing HID to LED, something that I have yet to see here at RIU. This is the sort of thing that brings better reception to our cause and ultimately drives the technology that we love to becoming better, leading us to better products in the coming years and leaving us with better yields.

This was the point of my previous post, that there is a formula to all of this, not that I'm upset with people not providing grow threads. That may have been @Positivity 's ordeal but not mine. I'm totally baffled as of why so many people follow @Greengenes707 's garden thread, as I've only seen photos of his grow, which are typically out of this world amazing, and a few tips and tricks on gardening; I suppose it serves as a place for people to chat and enjoy each other's company.

Anyhow, your coming off a little aggro, Churchy. Dim er' down I say!

 

[Positivity]

I explained what my real issue is to church in private... And it's not taunting people into showing photos they don't want to share. I lurked for over a decade before i shared one pic..,believe me..i get it.

But that "issue" will work itself out. It's not my responsibility anyway...

The original post that started the misunderstanding was a bit cryptic...some got it, some didn't..

Sorry @DoctorDelta9 ....lol....veered off the road a little...

 

[Greengenes707]

The reason it's so hard to find actual journal threads is exactly because of it's low rate of adoption. I think you put it best when you say we're lucky to get even a single photo of what we're talking about. (thanks btw)

More the other way around IMO
What come first the grows...or the adoption by the masses??
ANSWER: The grows!!

Better reception of LED growing will inevitably lead to more sales in LED/COB-based fixtures, thus leading to more grow journals, and with more grow journals comes greater acceptance of this technology. All of this, of course, stimulates the degree of efficiency and reliability behind these products, which in turns grows over time.

I do believe that COBS carry with them the rotting bodies of their fellow, monochromatic brethren, and with that foul stench comes a consensus shared by many in the general public that undermines the true potential of what we, as a select group, are experiencing in our grow chambers.

It will be a little longer before COBS go mainstream but it's bound to happen.

So you're so sure that they carry the stench...how are you so sure. Was their something that showed you this in your own garden. Or are you just going by paper theory someone else put out? If so what?

Yeah, but it's not our responsibility to post pictures of our controversial and/or illegal plants. This is a discussion board where the topic in this section is "Growing with LEDs". Everyone likes journal threads, but it's selfish to taunt people to risk not only themselves, but others in their households who may not agree with showing off pictures just for the sake of convincing some people online, or providing others with entertainment. Just deal with the fact that not everyone is posting journals. If they wanted to, they would. It's nobody's responsibility to provide these grow threads. Everyone likes to show off. I'm sure people have their reasons why they aren't providing you with their photos.

Exactly...GROWING with leds. And we see very little growing. I understand you are not in the situation to show your grows. But many ARE...and that statement about no grows to show what we are representing...is not all about your sir...actually you don't come to mind usually. So stop taking this personal. It's a community wide epidemic...yes, epidemic. You are taking it so personal because IMO you agree...and just can't show your shit.

As someone who is on the from line of the led acceptance battle...
Do you really expect there to be an led adopting increase if all you ever do is tell people how good something is on paper and in your mind without any physical manifestation of that reality??? You say it is not your responsibility...then whose is it? It is ours...the pioneers(not really at this stage...now days this is train hopping). The ones that are pushing it(you are included in this part), need to show proof of concept. How that is to be done can be different, and photos aren't always needed. A breakdown of grows would be a start...setup, method, veg time, YIELD. ANything and everything you can think of without a pic would be a start...but not even something like that pops up anywhere. I can guarantee that not everyone is getting 1.2-1.5g/w like the top growers are...but they showed grows and that is what the expectation was set at. But if they are...why haven't we seen them...that is something to brag and share. I know someone would have jumped in here if they had done it...but not one single person other than the regulars/top growers here have shown or mentioned anything close to that.
We need multiple runs, by multiple people, under multiples of condition and experience levels. It's not goign to happen in any other forum...RIU is the only ones capable. Not joking...I'm serious.

I lurked like everyone else for years. Then I got sick of seeing so much wrong and un backed info I started to speak up. Then I started to show up...cause pics and video are what really have effect. Pictures speak louder than words...and my pics YELL.

People weren't going around showing theory and paper calculations when hps took over the market. They were getting th best results and that is what people want to copy and learn from. Not something that they can barely understand....that only hinders adoption.

I personally could care less if not everyone is posting journals about their grows. Now @Yodaweed is doing something special with his upcoming grow, as you may know, which involves comparing HID to LED, something that I have yet to see here at RIU. This is the sort of thing that brings better reception to our cause and ultimately drives the technology that we love to becoming better, leading us to better products in the coming years and leaving us with better yields.

This was the point of my previous post, that there is a formula to all of this, not that I'm upset with people not providing grow threads. That may have been @Positivity 's ordeal but not mine. I'm totally baffled as of why so many people follow @Greengenes707 's garden thread, as I've only seen photos of his grow, which are typically out of this world amazing, and a few tips and tricks on gardening; I suppose it serves as a place for people to chat and enjoy each other's company.

Anyhow, your coming off a little aggro, Churchy. Dim er' down I say!

You have yet to see anything like that on RIU???...
https://www.rollitup.org/t/apache-at600-led-vs-1000w-hps-blue-dream-grow.813412/
Confined and equal space...one on one...no cross over...no additional factors...clones...just the best led vs the best hps to battle it out.

Why do so many look at and follow what I do...
-I use the best tech available openly for people to watch and learn from and see with their own eyes(very powerful sense)
-I run a full sized garden, where results can't be swept under the rug that easily, and big enough it translates to bigger scale
-Elite strains and genetics
-High yields
-Fully documented...WEEKLY VIDEO updates(102 of them), HUNDREDS OF PICTURES on different media platforms
-Different growing strategies with info and experience on them
-Product talk/unofficial-reviews...fans, pots, medium, controllers, lights, blumats, growing methods...the list goes on.
-Have consult for many different led companies in the industry...they seek me out, not the otherway.
-Unfiltered facts and data...I tell it how it is, you may hate it...but people who want actual facts and not bullshit, love it.
-Borderline in-industry knowledge of many sectors of our canna world
-Grow after grow after grow after grow of top notch results...grow after grow
-Good or bad results shown...go back to tags420, he was a cool guy. While everyone was either using hps(even current led gurus) or not buying the only performing leds at the time...he was committed and showing results, good and bad.
-Finished product test results
-Full transparency
-DIY talk and builds...on video too
-side by sides...plural
-Canna cups and hydro expo info and footage.
-Have used HPS on large commercial scale, I talk with experience,
-I put it out there to be seen

There is more reasons, but I feel that is good for now, don't you?

 

[churchhaze]

Do you really expect there to be an led adopting increase if all you ever do is tell people how good something is on paper and in your mind without any physical manifestation of that reality???

While I totally agree with this, even when I show pictures, I still get the same thick headed responses... I posted a picture with a yard stick showing my flowering plants at 36 inches under my 193W cxb build... The same guy who sees it challenges me to find him an LED light that will penetrate 36 inches... I shit you not.... It's a total mind fuck trying to sell this product.. I need a raise from 0! lol. I've showed links to your journal and honestly had people think meh. It's what they convinced themselves they would see, so that's what they saw. What your pictures don't show how many watts you're growing with. One person was even doubting we were telling him the truth about actual dissipated watts on our DIY units, because he heard the commercial units lie about their actual dissipated watts. He wouldn't believe us that we as the designers knew how to calculate and measure that.

Everyone thinks I'd finally be happy if everyone "broke down" and converted, as if I really care if people convert... The thing that annoys me is that people think my "purple" lamps won't "penetrate" like HPS will, and that they are inferior lamps, not that people won't convert. The best I can do is nod and agree that their lamp is not only cheaper, but also superior in every way... because if I argue otherwise, I'm a cult elitist trying to convert everyone to LED...

Seriously though, thank you for documenting your grows... Positivity too. . There's no way I would have bothered with this technology had I not seen repeated documented results to backup the theory and specs. I have a feeling with all the recent people we helped build lamps, we'll slowly start to see the DIY led journals show up in the non-led sections too.

 

[Greengenes707]

While I totally agree with this, even when I show pictures, I still get the same thick headed responses... I posted a picture with a yard stick showing my flowering plants at 36 inches under my 193W cxb build... The same guy who sees it challenges me to find him an LED light that will penetrate 36 inches... I shit you not.... It's a total mind fuck trying to sell this product.. I need a raise from 0! lol. I've showed links to your journal and honestly had people think meh. It's what they convinced themselves they would see, so that's what they saw. What your pictures don't show how many watts you're growing with. One person was even doubting we were telling him the truth about actual dissipated watts on our DIY units, because he heard the commercial units lie about their actual dissipated watts. He wouldn't believe us that we as the designers knew how to calculate and measure that.

Everyone thinks I'd finally be happy if everyone "broke down" and converted, as if I really care if people convert... The thing that annoys me is that people think my "purple" lamps won't "penetrate" like HPS will, and that they are inferior lamps, not that people won't convert. The best I can do is nod and agree that their lamp is not only cheaper, but also superior in every way... because if I argue otherwise, I'm a cult elitist trying to convert everyone to LED...

Seriously though, thank you for documenting your grows... Positivity too. . There's no way I would have bothered with this technology had I not seen repeated documented results to backup the theory and specs. I have a feeling with all the recent people we helped build lamps, we'll slowly start to see the DIY led journals show up in the non-led sections too.

Whichi is why I have pictures of my watt meter in my threads...and on my videos. One picture out of the blue to answer a question from a skeptic is not going to do it.
You offer up pics and grows to people who already have made up their mind, or are arguing with you...a very easy way for them to not want to accept whatever it is you show them...you just pissed them off.
That is just human nature. REALSTYLE PM'ed me to apologize for his way...I am still pissed and won't forgive pretty much. All because he pissed me off to begin with being a child and plain disrespectful. He may be great in person(doubt it, joking or not, I'm not a fan)...but his way going about things isn't and has left me sour...and that is how I will stay. Same goes for hps guys and people you argue with. Starting off negative is a horrible way for them to them to bow and accept what you show.

But when someone stumbles onto something on their own...they say, wow...wtf is he doing to do so well. OR wow, those leds are great, what kind are they?

If 10 others had similar...some better, some worse...than me, how could someone just dismiss my results if their are 10 others are waiting right behind it??

You see it...you know it...you just can't do it cause of your situation.
But public results from led's are the only way for progression of led's in the growing world. There are 7 billion people in this world...why is it there are maybe 6 documented COB grows?
Someone has to step up to the plate...I'm stranded on third with 2 out waiting someone to hit an RBI single...doesn't need to be a home run.

 

[Rahz]

Maybe someone could volunteer to post other growers pics? I've forwarded some pics to several members hoping they would show up but no luck yet.

@churchhaze didn't realize your situation was similar to mine.

 

[DoctorDelta9]

@Greengenes707
Just read the thread you posted. Subbed to your YouTube page. Badass brother!
Keep up the good work!

 

[churchhaze]

There are 7 billion people in this world...why is it there are maybe 6 documented COB grows?
Someone has to step up to the plate...I'm stranded on third with 2 out waiting someone to hit an RBI single...doesn't need to be a home run.

For about 3 weeks after I made my digikey order for 11 cxb2530, 89 of the 100 originally available were still in stock. How could I possibly still be the only person in the entire world to have ordered... for weeks... while at the same time having people tell me "if it's so great, why isn't everyone using it"...

I was actually looking on some other forum's led sections including the aquarium forums, and it seems we're lucky with our 6 documented cob grows. They're all still stuck on the blurple chinese panels, and rarely have any activity at all. That's exactly why the reefers are coming here to see our 6 grows!

 

[AquariusPanta]

So you're so sure that they carry the stench...how are you so sure. Was their something that showed you this in your own garden. Or are you just going by paper theory someone else put out? If so what?

O lord, you put some effort into this one, Genes! Bravo! I will do my best to answer your questions.

I've been tinkering with LEDS for some time now; started off with wiring them into my vehicle many years ago (approximately four years ago). Then, when I moved out to the west coast, around the same time period, I began looking into grow lights, as I became a caregiver to one of my friends at the time.

I was specifically honed into growing with LED grow lights, which at the time were purple-themed. I visited and talked to many growers/hydroponic store owners and workers who either had personal experience or knew of someone who did and not one ever recommended LED over any of the mainstream lights, such as HPS or MH; they simply favored the low start up cost and proven results that followed such lights.

I eventually chose to buy a few BlackStars and after my first indoor grow, decided I'd stick with LED. For my second indoor grow, I sold the older version BlackStars and reinvested that money into newer makes, the Chromes. I saw improvements but more importantly, became better at knowing what NOT to do when growing.

Just last year I bought into the newest BlackStar technology, as well as implemented my own Crowns into the mix. It was clear to me that COBS definitively made a bigger impact than the Chromes, as I cut the vegetative cycle in half (simply thirty days) and yet yielded at least double the yield, not to mention the quality was the best yet.

So what I meant by the stench was that mainstream growers, from my memory of living out on the west coast years ago, held negative outlooks on the LED products/fixtures at the time, which did not encompass COBS but instead monochromatic LEDS.

Case in point: COBS are relatively new in the marketplace, and although many of us here have been using them since last year or longer and have witnessed their precious qualities, much of the marketplace is flooded with purple-themed LED fixtures, thus affecting COBS in some manner.

No doubt you are one of the finest growers here on the site, I'm just one out of the dozens here that doesn't find your thread all the appealing. Doesn't mean you don't hold certain credentials or a given enticement, but that I just find your thread non-useful to my being, and that's okay mate. I'm actually positive that I'm missing out on some phenomenal information from your thread but I have no need for it at this time. I know what I need to know and that's all I need to know.