Best Organic Nurtrient line for hydroponics?

phil k

Well-Known Member
Exactly. The microbes run the show. They dictate what the ph of the medium is. You can pour water that's at 8.0 ph on the soil and the soils ph will remain the same.
no whats actually happening is your soil is being balanced by the oyster shells do you know what the ph is of outer shells? its not that you can feed any ph of water .. theres no way your going to feed 5.0 water every feed to your plant with ZERO results. its not going to happen..

soil rebalances to its natural state as it drys SO you can feed a acidic feed allow it to dry and feed base water with no issues but you can't feed acidic water consistently to your plant with no issues!! same with Base water it would screw your plants...
 

phil k

Well-Known Member
no whats actually happening is your soil is being balanced by the oyster shells do you know what the ph is of outer shells? its not that you can feed any ph of water .. theres no way your going to feed 5.0 water every feed to your plant with ZERO results. its not going to happen..

soil rebalances to its natural state as it drys SO you can feed a acidic feed allow it to dry and feed base water with no issues but you can't feed acidic water consistently to your plant with no issues!! same with Base water it would screw your plants...
Exactly. The microbes run the show. They dictate what the ph of the medium is. You can pour water that's at 8.0 ph on the soil and the soils ph will remain the same.
Microbes ALONE are not going to magically adjust your waters ph.. it just doesn't work that way
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
Microbes ALONE are not going to magically adjust your waters ph.. it just doesn't work that way
Well, stick around this section and you'll meet tons of folks that don't mess with the ph of their water. Since switching to an organically amended soil I haven't so much as touched my ph meter. There is no use for it. Any source of calcium carbonate and top notch vermicompost/compost (home made is best) is all that's needed. The results speak for themselves.

If your soil requires adjusting the ph of the water, I'd question what the soil consists of. You are either way too light on calcium carbonate, or your castings are inferior.
 

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
no it doesn't work like that.. your in a PH scale just cause your using acid doesn't mean your waters acid.. your taking an acid to a BASE POSITIVE (7.2) water... in order to combat a high base level.. all your doing is balancing your waters ph.. not making your water acid. 6.5 is higher than any hydro grower keeps their resivoirs.. why wouldn't that acidic of water effect them? get what i mean.. also remember i add 1ML per five gallon ... thats one point four Milliliters into a five gallon its maybe a 1/4 tsp or so
So you're dumping phosphoric acid on your organic soil? LOL!!! :roll:

P-
 

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
no whats actually happening is your soil is being balanced by the oyster shells do you know what the ph is of outer shells? its not that you can feed any ph of water .. theres no way your going to feed 5.0 water every feed to your plant with ZERO results. its not going to happen..

soil rebalances to its natural state as it drys SO you can feed a acidic feed allow it to dry and feed base water with no issues but you can't feed acidic water consistently to your plant with no issues!! same with Base water it would screw your plants...
A couple of things; first off, High Times Magazine is not a credible source in the organic section. We prefer to read from people that actually know what they are talking about.

Second, I don't own a pH meter.

Third:

Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels
The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don’t want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.

Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book “Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener’s Guide to the Soil Food Web.” (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two “you made a mistake” notes. But that’s not as many as I thought I’d receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.

In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won’t grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.

A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.

If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That’s because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.

When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.

This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.

So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.

Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.

I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don’t) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant’s rhizosphere by the plant’s exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn’t have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.



Peace!

P-
 

phil k

Well-Known Member
Well, stick around this section and you'll meet tons of folks that don't mess with the ph of their water. Since switching to an organically amended soil I haven't so much as touched my ph meter. There is no use for it. Any source of calcium carbonate and top notch vermicompost/compost (home made is best) is all that's needed. The results speak for themselves.

If your soil requires adjusting the ph of the water, I'd question what the soil consists of. You are either way too light on calcium carbonate, or your castings are inferior.
I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand what their doing.... And how the shit they amend or add is effecting your oh... HELLO Your amending calcium carbonate into your soil.... HELLO!!!! YOUR TAKING AND CHANGING YOUR SOIL PH PROPERTY!!!!!! ... I give up I feel like not one single damn person in here has taken science.. And I can guarantee no one putting their opinions on this thread has any degrees or even more than 1 years worth of college level plant biology or biology.. 99.99999% of growers learn from magazine and post .. So unless your truly understand not ONLY what your amedments do to your ph and media but also that water general water carries a ph of 7.0-7.2 I've been growing soil every day of my life since 2008 prior to that I grew every day of my life using hydro setups .... I'm not trying to act like I'm some fucking master grower but someone who has 14 STRAIGTH years of growing your beating a dead horse PH MATTERS... ....your ph of your water matters... You even say yourself your amending sodium bicarbonate.... So why woruld you do that if according to you all you ph does t matter.

I'd like to see your flower pics
 
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green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
Pulled out the ph meter just for shits and giggles on recent aact.
My water is 7.5-8 out of the tap. So somehow Ewc and molasses seem to balance it out pretty good.

A couple of things; first off, High Times Magazine is not a credible source in the organic section. We prefer to read from people that actually know what they are talking about.

Second, I don't own a pH meter.

Third:

Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels
The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don’t want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.

Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book “Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener’s Guide to the Soil Food Web.” (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two “you made a mistake” notes. But that’s not as many as I thought I’d receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.

In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won’t grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.

A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.

If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That’s because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.

When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.

This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.

So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.

Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.

I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don’t) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant’s rhizosphere by the plant’s exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn’t have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.



Peace!

P-
Wow.! Teaming with microbes is one o my all time favorites thanks P
 

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green_machine_two9er

Well-Known Member
I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand what their doing.... And how the shit they amend or add is effecting your oh... HELLO Your amending calcium carbonate into your soil.... HELLO!!!! YOUR TAKING AND CHANGING YOUR SOIL PH PROPERTY!!!!!! ... I give up I feel like not one single damn person in here has taken science.. And I can guarantee no one putting their opinions on this thread has any degrees or even more than 1 years worth of plant biology or biology.. 99.99999% of growers learn from magazine and post .. So unless your truly understand not ONLY what your amedments do to your ph and media but also that water general water carries a ph of 7.0-7.2

You are you are going g to naturally drop and any added water ph down to more acidic ... Your saying your ph doesn't matter but it does HELLO!!! otherwise you won't be amending any sodium bicarbonate.
Wow. How much plant biology education do you have Phil k?? Just curious. It's sad but I feel your missing point. Noone is saying ph doesn't matter. Is just not monitored or ducked with (ph up an down) throughout the whole cycle.

Also the average closet grower may lean from high times and forums. But anyone who is serious I think understands most information in the mainstream cannibus world is bs. Geared at selling products.
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand what their doing.... And how the shit they amend or add is effecting your oh... HELLO Your amending calcium carbonate into your soil.... HELLO!!!! YOUR TAKING AND CHANGING YOUR SOIL PH PROPERTY!!!!!! ... I give up I feel like not one single damn person in here has taken science.. And I can guarantee no one putting their opinions on this thread has any degrees or even more than 1 years worth of plant biology or biology.. 99.99999% of growers learn from magazine and post .. So unless your truly understand not ONLY what your amedments do to your ph and media but also that water general water carries a ph of 7.0-7.2

You are you are going g to naturally drop and any added water ph down to more acidic ... Your saying your ph doesn't matter but it does HELLO!!! otherwise you won't be amending any sodium bicarbonate.
Captain cap-lock. You're trying to peddle soil for $22 per 5 pound bag..... but you have to dump acid in your water to make it work. What a joke. People are making their own soil around here, which is water only, re-used for 3, 4, 5+ rounds with no issues, and no acid needed. Maybe if you put a bit more research in to how to build a soil before you launched your product you wouldn't be looking like a fool on here.

PS. your plant pics in that thread you started are very mediocre.
 

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand what their doing.... And how the shit they amend or add is effecting your oh... HELLO Your amending calcium carbonate into your soil.... HELLO!!!! YOUR TAKING AND CHANGING YOUR SOIL PH PROPERTY!!!!!! ... I give up I feel like not one single damn person in here has taken science.. And I can guarantee no one putting their opinions on this thread has any degrees or even more than 1 years worth of plant biology or biology.. 99.99999% of growers learn from magazine and post .. So unless your truly understand not ONLY what your amedments do to your ph and media but also that water general water carries a ph of 7.0-7.2

You are you are going g to naturally drop and any added water ph down to more acidic ... Your saying your ph doesn't matter but it does HELLO!!! otherwise you won't be amending any sodium bicarbonate.
Omg, I just added gallons of EWC to my soil! Is all that calcium carbonate going to screw my plants?!

So you wanna explain how microbilogy doesn't affect pH?

Wow. How much plant biology education do you have Phil k?? Just curious. It's sad but I feel your missing point. Noone is saying ph doesn't matter. Is just not monitored or ducked with (ph up an down) throughout the whole cycle.

Also the average closet grower may lean from high times and forums. But anyone who is serious I think understands most information in the mainstream cannibus world is bs. Geared at selling products.
Yup, which is exactly what Phil is doing. Trying to sell his wanna be OMRI listed soil.

P-
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Captain cap-lock. You're trying to peddle soil for $22 per 5 pound bag..... but you have to dump acid in your water to make it work. What a joke. People are making their own soil around here, which is water only, re-used for 3, 4, 5+ rounds with no issues, and no acid needed. Maybe if you put a bit more research in to how to build a soil before you launched your product you wouldn't be looking like a fool on here.

PS. your plant pics in that thread you started are very mediocre.

I'm still using the same soil since a year before the rols thread was started.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/re-using-soil.543362/
 
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