Do you believe Americans who work full time should earn a living wage?

[panhead]

It appears as you were addressing me so i'll respond .

There are people who can have a job but don't want to work. Thanks to the liberal policies of Obama like Barney Frank who came up with a program of housing entitlement by mandating financial institutions finance a house to those who didn't have the means to pay back loans..

I agree 100% that there are huge numbers of slugs who refuse to work , i just pointed out in this thread i have a godson who leaches off welfare vs working & refused to take a $12 an hour full time job my son offered him , you'll get no arguement from me on that , im also aware of the housing fiasco more than most ,the main source of our income comes from buying foreclosed homes from HUD, remodeling them & flipping them for max appraisal values , we employ a full time Journeyman Electrician @ $70k a yr as well as a full time Journeyman Plumber @ $57k a year & a helper to remodel & maintain our propertys , the 3 are experts in all aspects of remodeling & are well paid , both Journeymen are my wifes little brothers .

Mandated lending was far less a disaster than the above income bracket lending pushed thru for the middle class by greedy lenders backed by HUD, people with $80k incomes were allowed to buy $300k homes , that fiasco cost taxpayers much more than mandated lending .

Being a landlord & speculator im extremely aware of alot of the issues with welfare bums ,so aware that we do not rent to anybody who dont work & who's rent & security deposit comes from the state because they have destroyed our homes every last time ive taken a chance & accepted them as tennants .

As to President Obama ive made it clear i do not like alot of Obama's decisions & i dont care for him as a president , i got called a stupid racist bigot for saying im not a big fan of him but IMO he was the best option we had at that time [/QUOTE]

"How much money do you make? You're probably one of these middle class people the very beliefs you support harm, how goddamn stupid do you feel?".

Before i retired i made around $200k a yr from my job with bonuses,much of it untaxed money earned outside the USA , my wife made around $60k teaching & our businesses brought in about $300k yearly so total income was right around $500k a year when we both retired, now that we gave both businesses & all 23 rental homes to our sons our yearly income is right around $120k a year .

I dont feel stupid at all , i pay an enormous amount of income & property taxes & have no problem with some of my tax dollars going to less fortunate people who want to work or are unable to work , i do not support sloth or intentional denial of work in order to collect from the state .

I don't have to work anymore, not "for the man" like I said in a previous statement about my assets. We have 6 figures in the bank, investments, a farm and luxury house. It's called delayed gratification, hard work, concepts you and the other RIU communist pukes wouldn't understand.

I understand these concepts very well & worked my ass off to get what we have , i dont want to get into a who's wallet is fatter contest but we own both of our homes , have zero debt & have posted pics on this site of 6 figure amounts of cash we have to store at home because the bank has enough of my cash they'll tax my kids on when i take the dirt nap , were far from broke looking for handouts , we worked hard all our lives , i worked to the point ive done permenant damage to my spine , was 3rd degree burnt 12% of my body , had fingers amputated & could of sued for millions vs taking a settlement & working hard another 20 yrs .

I support free enterprise, capitalism. It's the only way to prosperity

I also support capitalism & free enterprise but not on the backs of slave labor , i support a level playing field not where goverent allows big business to underinflate wages , hire illegals & pay them 1/4 of their value , or to create an adversarial workplace where workers are in fear of loosing jobs & accept substandard wages & work in unsafe environments , i do not agree with right to work laws or any of the shady business pratices that go hand in hand with RTW laws .

If i found somebody desperate enough to mow my 6 acre lawn for $20 it does not make me in the right just because they are desperate , thats why i paid fair wages for work performed on my behalf .

 

[panhead]

you guys keep saying this over and over..low skill blah, blah..it's not about skill..do you really know what it's all about? think about it!!!

why is the delivery man more important than the comptroller?

Please dont play the Politically Correct language card , it has no place in my discussion with @londonfog , at some point we have to define skill set because skill set highly applies to the employees both him & i employ at the businesses we are speaking about , neither one of us is ripping employees off for work performed .

I have highly trained Journeymen tradesmen working for me as well as employees with no education or hard earned skills , for the purpose of our discussion definition of skills is needed .

 

[panhead]

You do realize that if every business owner was forced to pay all his/her employees 16.50 an hour as starting pay, you would lose a large amount of small businesses. Why do you hate small businesses ?

Thats a wildly broad statement , you & i both afford to pay $16 an hour & we are small business , any smaller in employee numbers our businesses would be one man shows .

Define " small business" in terms of employee numbers & net profit .

 

[Fogdog]

It is the dynamics, Industry no longer have laws or borders to govern them with global economy.
From the outside it looks as though China is running Capital Hill. Their middle class is fatting up.

I understand what you are saying but would like to point out that the Chinese middle class is only doing well compared to the 75% of China still in poverty. Compared to the US middle class they are not very well off at all. That said, the US middle class is a shrinking demographic..

I don't like the Chinese government, or our trade policies. Our financial elite salivate at the thought of the power that the Chinese elite have. I'd like to see the Chinese middle class fatten up same as ours.

 

[UncleBuck]

There's always going to be somebody on the bottom

nah, once we elect a republican president they will all bootstrap themselves up.

 

[UncleBuck]

This discussion is meaningless based on one's standard of living witness the Clinton's. They get paid 6 digit figures

because unlike you they are worth it. they get paid what the market will bear.

sorry to hear you hate the free market, benis (minorities too).

 

[UncleBuck]

I take it you don't like Scott Walker. FWIW, he's a tough hombre that did the right thing.

his approval rating is farther in the dump than your shithole of a home is.

 

[UncleBuck]

that faggot Barney Frank

class act, eh @bravedave ?

 

[bravedave]

class act, eh @bravedave ?

No. Not funny and Not even close. That slimeball Frank should be in prison.

 

[UncleBuck]

No. Not funny and Not even close. That slimeball Frank should be in prison.

 

[god1]

... but remember way back when i said untaxed xmas bonuses ? That comes directly out of my bank account & cant be claimed as a labor cost ......

I gather what you're really saying is that you "gifted" the employees and absorbed the tax burden as opposed to providing a bonus in the sense of "supplemental" income. In the later case the employees would have to absorb the tax burden.

At any rate I find this discussion between you and London interesting; I'm curious what you're digging at. I read back and few pages and don't want to make any assumptions.

Would you mind stating your objective in a few sentences so I could come up to speed?

I won't inject myself into the conversation.

I find the conversation interesting, because there are some subtle points about "wage disparity" and the mind set of people who work for "wages" vs those those who view "wages" as part of a bigger "portfolio" to accomplish an end goal.

Interesting discussion.

 

[NoDrama]

The Law:

[Officers are] expected to pursue the best interests of the company in good faith (i.e., to fulfill their duty of loyalty) and to use the amount of care that a reasonably prudent person would use in similar circumstances (i.e., to fulfill their duty of care). (emphasis added).

- See more at: http://www.dypadvisors.com/2011/09/...officers-of-corporation/#sthash.3McF5KmL.dpuf

i.e. CEO has a FIDUCIARY duty to make a profit. CEO's can go to PRISON if they shirk that duty.

So if a company can make more profits by outsourcing the work to China, then that is what the CEO must do, it is his legal duty to do so.

 

[Padawanbater2]

The Law:
- See more at: http://www.dypadvisors.com/2011/09/...officers-of-corporation/#sthash.3McF5KmL.dpuf

i.e. CEO has a FIDUCIARY duty to make a profit. CEO's can go to PRISON if they shirk that duty.

So if a company can make more profits by outsourcing the work to China, then that is what the CEO must do, it is his legal duty to do so.

Give me a fuckin' break, that's the worst argument yet.

I'm pretty sure Walmart makes plenty of fuckin' money. Top execs pocket the growth that should be going to the workers. The allocation of profits is the issue. 1970s level income is widely acceptable to most Americans, 20-25x's the average worker, 325x's in 2015 is not.

 

[Fogdog]

No shit. And so many folks still haven't figured out the Clintons could give a shit about anyone other than themselves. I mean, how many scandals and shenanigens, cum stained blue dresses does it take? Benghazi, foreign contributions and cronyism in the millions into the Clinton's mega foundations, elaborate parties rubbing elbows with countries who don't like us, deleting emails, not following standard Whitehouse protocols regarding messaging, dodging questions and nothing but a big bore. Bitch doesn't even show enthusiasm about running. Even putting on a happy face is plastic and forced. And let's not forget what most have forgotten about these bottom feeders:

Chinagate - The Clinton-Gore campaign in 1996 allegedly took bribes from Chinese banks and their government to help their dwindling poll numbers.

Travelgate Scandal - Catherine Cornelius, a 25-year-old cousin of Bill's was allegedly promised the position of director of the travel office. Hillary Clinton then (indirectly) fired seven employees from the United States travel office and replaced them with associates from Arkansas.

Whitewater Scandal - Hillary and her husband were partners in a shady real estate development firm called Whitewater Development Corp in Arkansas. Accusations of impropriety against the Clintons and others soon surfaced, regarding improper campaign contributions, political and financial favors, and tax benefits.

Vince Foster Jr. Mystery - Questions cloud the suicide of Vince Foster, former colleague, friend, and White House aid of Hillary’s who had connections to Travelgate, and the Whitewater scandals.

Filegate Scandal - Craig Livingstone, director of the White House's Office of Personnel Security "improperly" accessed FBI files on several hundred individuals.

Mrs. Clinton called it a, "completely honest bureaucratic snafu."

Many of these files were on people from previous Republican administrations. Hillary Clinton hired Livingston and is alleged to have looked at the files and requested this move.

Cattle-Futures Miracle - Hillary’s first commodity trade was in cattle futures where she ordered 10 futures contracts which normally cost $12,000 dollars with only $1,000 dollars in her account. This turned into $6,300 dollars by the next morning and after 10 months totaled $100,000, with trading help from James B. Blair.

“Blair, who at the time was outside counsel to Tyson Foods Inc., Arkansas' largest employer, says he was advising Clinton out of friendship, not to seek political gain. . ." reports The WashingtonPost.

Robert L. "Red" Bone ran the Springdale, AK financial services company REFCO allowed the trades and later, after investigation, had to pay the largest fine at the time in the exchanges history and was suspended for three years. Hillary Clinton said she was able to make the successful trading because she read the Wall Street Journal for research.

Lootergate - Bill and especially Hillary started to ship White House furniture to their personal home in Chappaqua, N.Y.. The Clintons claimed they were donated, but at only some were proven to be donated and meant to stay in the White House after contacting the manufacturers. The Clintons returned some of the furniture after pressure was put on them to do so.

Drug Dealer Donor Scandal - Convicted drug trafficker Jorge Cabrera apparently made such a big donation to the Clinton’s campaign that he was invited to the White house without Secret Service present.

Ponzi Scheme and Political Favor Scandal - Norman Yung Yuen Hsu was a convicted pyramid investment promoter, and major Democratic donor. He contributed an undisclosed amount to Hillary Clinton’s 2008 campaign.​

You know, your list kind of makes me miss the Clinton era of scandals. Yes those scandals were bad, shows you what king of cheap chiselers they were too. Not saying it was OK. I'd say that the Bush White House had scandals too but not these dirty cheap ones, they went big.

Starting off with stolen election in Florida, brother Jeb came up big for little bro; then there was
the Enron energy scandal where they came out and told California that they looked into it and the just saw market forces at work, people died in that one. Karl Rove scored lobbyist Ralph Reed a lucrative contract with Enron in 1997 to gain his support in the 2000 presidential race. Gee I wonder if there was a connection....
The Twin Towers disaster, where the national security advisor was stifled and the ignorant White House staff dropped the ball. More people died in that one.
The Iraq War which was a sham and the President's staff knew there was no justification, the weapons of mass destruction scare was a shadow play and they knew it. More people died in that one. Remember when GW told the sailors on that aircraft carrier, Mission Accomplished? I wonder what he was talking about. The war certainly wasn't over at that time.
The enormous open ended contracts given to Halliburton and Black Water. Halliburton was mostly sucking down cash and bribing people right and left but Black Water paramilitary agents killed people.
The Torture of prisoners and the Abu Ghraib scandal. I don't want to go to deep into this, its too damn disgusting.

This is just the first four years and not even a complete list.
He ended his presidency with a collapsing economy, ballooning debt and the near destruction of the middle class in the US

Oh yeah, GW made me miss Monica.

 

[NoDrama]

how much is one hour of your life worth?

that's how much you should pay them.

EMPLOYERS: IT'S NOT ABOUT SKILL!!!!!

you employ a living breathing person and whether it's his job to be a delivery person or comptroller of your company, each job assignment has a uniqueness unto it's own..the grass (skill) always looks greener (none required) until the CEO has to do it..wasn't that a reality series?

for example:

an accountant needs to be good with numbers, know how to prepare a financial statement, audit etc..a delivery driver must get his cargo where it needs to go, on time..in perfect condition..who has the harder job?..anyone care to debate this?

I'll debate this with you.

How much schooling does it take to be a delivery driver?

How much schooling does it take to be an accountant?

What you are saying is that the delivery driver should be paid more because his job is physically harder? You weren't clear on this point so that is an assumption on my part so sue me if I go astray. If the delivery man doesn't make his deliveries then the company loses some money until he can be replaced by someone who does the job better.

If the accountant does all the financial statements wrong, then the company can be sued, have its officers arrested for fraud and bankrupt the entire company.

Who do you want to pay more to ensure they do the job correctly?

People who go to college also expect to be paid more than those who did not, they have education loans they need to pay.

 

[Fogdog]

I'll debate this with you.
If the accountant does all the financial statements wrong, then the company can be sued, have its officers arrested for fraud and bankrupt the entire company.

Who do you want to pay more to ensure they do the job correctly?

People who go to college also expect to be paid more than those who did not, they have education loans they need to pay.

I'm not interested in debating with you on @schuylaar 's topic, i'm just commenting on the bit about the auditor messing up..

If an accountant messes up the books what I've seen happen is a lot of workers get laid off, the CEO gets fired but receives a golden handshake on the way out and the accountant keeps his job because he's the only person that knows where the money is stashed.

 

[NoDrama]

I'm pretty sure Walmart makes plenty of fuckin' money. Top execs pocket the growth that should be going to the workers. The allocation of profits is the issue. 1970s level income is widely acceptable to most Americans, 20-25x's the average worker, 325x's in 2015 is not.

I'm all for employees sharing in the profits, but in order to do that then they must also share the risk.
If the company heads into hard times, the employees will have to work extra hours, unpaid, just like I do. They will have to foot the bill for any unforeseen expenses, just like I currently do. If someone gets injured on the job and sues the company, the employees will all have to pony up their share of the cash. Need new vehicles to deliver the goods? Employees get to pay their share.

These are just a very few of the risks that employers currently DON'T make employees pay for.


You should start a business and try to employ people, you'll get a real good dose of reality and humility along the way.

BTW, using Wal Mart as your example for every company is a really shitty one. Do you think the local dollar store has the kind of profits that Wal Mart has? Yet you think they are equivalent businesses when it comes to the amount they should pay employees.

 

[NoDrama]

I'm not interested in debating with you on @schuylaar 's topic, i'm just commenting on the bit about the auditor messing up..

If an accountant messes up the books what I've seen happen is a lot of workers get laid off, the CEO gets fired but receives a golden handshake on the way out and the auditor keeps his job because he's the only person that knows where the money is stashed.

So were in agreement then. The delivery driver is a much less important person in the company than the accountant. The delivery driver can't get the other employees all fired if he fails to deliver.

 

[Fogdog]

So were in agreement then. The delivery driver is a much less important person in the company than the accountant. The delivery driver can't get the other employees all fired if he fails to deliver.

I said I wasn't going to debate that.

 

[NoDrama]

I said I wasn't going to debate that.

Agreeing with people does not lead to debates.