Genetic drift: Good or Bad?

[tstick]

Okay, so I have read that genetic drift occurs over time with clones -likely due (mostly) to environmental reasons….In essence, a clone that one person grows in a given environment will be different from the same clone grown in a different environment…

The usual implication is that genetic drift is a bad thing. Like, if I want the "real" OG Kush (clone-only strain), but there's been so much genetic drift over time, that what I can get that's called OG Kush will, in fact, not be the same as the original.

But, if I get a clone ofOG Kush that is several generations away from the original clone, can that change possibly improve?

Which brings me to the next question…Can there be ever be real consistency in strains if regular cloning doesn't actually give genetically-stable results? If I buy a pack of "Blue Dream" joints at my local recreational outlet, will it be the same Blue Dream a year or two later?

Will tissue culture cloning be the only truly-consistent way of producing MJ on a massive, commercial basis?



Thanks in advance!

 

[Aeroknow]

Okay, so I have read that genetic drift occurs over time with clones -likely due (mostly) to environmental reasons….In essence, a clone that one person grows in a given environment will be different from the same clone grown in a different environment…

The usual implication is that genetic drift is a bad thing. Like, if I want the "real" OG Kush (clone-only strain), but there's been so much genetic drift over time, that what I can get that's called OG Kush will, in fact, not be the same as the original.

But, if I get a clone ofOG Kush that is several generations away from the original clone, can that change possibly improve?

Which brings me to the next question…Can there be ever be real consistency in strains if regular cloning doesn't actually give genetically-stable results? If I buy a pack of "Blue Dream" joints at my local recreational outlet, will it be the same Blue Dream a year or two later?

Will tissue culture cloning be the only truly-consistent way of producing MJ on a massive, commercial basis?



Thanks in advance!

I've read up on this allot. From my understanding, Genetic drift happening over time with clones is HIGHLY unlikely. Genetic mutation is more likely.

I also use to think genetic drift in clones was possible. I've had certain cuts turn for the worse over years and years of keeping it alive. But now I think it was most likely a disease/pathogen/virus or something like that. But I've also had many strains for years amd years, that never changed
Here's just one interesting read about this. There's quite a bit more discussions out there thanks to the internet nowadays:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=248249

I've had an unexplainable "dud" syndrom pop up in a couple different strains. I would imagine it is a sickness. I wish I knew for sure though, because that shit
Pisses me off bad.

 

[ShirkGoldbrick]

Genetic drift isn't possible. If you have a plant that seems to have "genetic drift" or "loss of vigor" and take some clones and provide better conditions it will get it's mojo back provided there's no viruses. If there is a virus in the plant then a tissue culture from the apical meristem can usually grow faster than the virus can spread and you can clone from that
(good luck).

Ok ok, if you have high levels of radiation you could probably screw up the DNA and get "genetic drift".

 

[Aeroknow]

Ok ok, if you have high levels of radiation you could probably screw up the DNA and get "genetic drift".

 

[touchstone]

There is natural genetic mutation, however genetic drift cannot by definition occur in a population of clones;

1. variation in the relative frequency of different genotypes in a small population, owing to the chance disappearance of particular genes as individuals die or do not reproduce.

In the process of a single clone changing over time, there is no 'population' and certainly no chance for different genes to die as individuals die. Genetic mutation is a wholly separate process, which DOES occur in clones and which theoretically could introduce new traits.

 

[tstick]

Genetic drift isn't possible. If you have a plant that seems to have "genetic drift" or "loss of vigor" and take some clones and provide better conditions it will get it's mojo back provided there's no viruses...

My understanding is that the term "genetic drift" doesn't indicate a loss of vigor. My understanding is that genetic drift is a kind of adaptive mutation brought about by environmental changes. So, I'm wondering that IF there is a drift of genetic material, is it possible for that drift to possibly create a trait within the strain that is more desirable? Like, if I grow a plant under a different spectrum of light (other than sunlight) that causes that particular strain to stop producing certain pigments or terpenes that it did under sunlight…then could that trait be passed on to subsequent clones for several generations…until eventually, the traits are permanently removed? And even if you were to take one of those clones and put it back under sunlight, would it continue to grow without those original traits? Or, would its original traits return or subsequent generations of growing in sunlight in much the same way they went away under artificial lighting? -just an example

What causes mutation and how does mutation differ from drift? Aren't they the same meaning under different terms? If a plant drifts, then it has mutated, has it not? And if it has mutated, then it has drifted…right?

 

[mc130p]

By manipulating the environment, you are affecting the gene expression, but not the genetic content. If you keep propagating the same plant through generations of clones, the DNA will not change. Also, genetic drift doesn't occur in single organisms, it occurs in populations of organisms. A set of clones does not constitute a population though.

 

[ShirkGoldbrick]

You can make it polyploid with colchicine. Primarily through @tstick you're talking about breeding a strain.

 

[tstick]

Well with humans, we all started out with one genetic signature. But, over time and with exposure to different environments, we "drifted" in different ways. Some of our original genes disappeared -like the gene for skin pigmentation, for example.

So, I'm wondering why drift can't occur in a single plant genetic signature, as well.

I'm aware of colchicine treatment. I think I read about it for the first time in a High Times magazine back in the 1970's! but I'm not trying to manipulate the genetics. I'm wondering whether or not a plant alters its own genetics over several generations through (for lack of a better word) "evolution"….or "adaptation"

 

[hyroot]

2 words. Recessive traits..

 

[tstick]

But do those recessive traits eventually disappear altogether? Do any traits recede so far that they go away?

Would something like unnatural light cause a plant's photosynthesis genetic material to mutate over several generations of clones grown under it?

 

[touchstone]

But do those recessive traits eventually disappear altogether? Do any traits recede so far that they go away?

Would something like unnatural light cause a plant's photosynthesis genetic material to mutate over several generations of clones grown under it?

Photosynthesis is carried out by chloroplasts within the cell, and they undergo dna replication and division much like larger cells, just in much simpler terms. However, much like in the larger cells, mutations are MUCH more likely to cause disease and cell death than any type of new trait or, even rarer, beneficial trait.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroplast#Chloroplast_division

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S_phase

S-phase (synthesis phase) is the part of the cell cycle in which DNA is replicated, occurring between G1 phase and G2 phase. Precise and accurate DNA replication is necessary to prevent genetic abnormalities which often lead to cell death or disease. Due to the importance, the regulatory pathways that govern this event in eukaryotes are highly conserved. This conservation makes the study of S-phase in model organisms such as Xenopus laevis embryos and budding yeast relevant to higher organisms. It will be interesting to know the percentage of S-phase active cells within different types of cells, as well as times, e.g. theoretically it is more likely that during sleep most cells go through this phase.

This is likely the same in the larger cell and dna for it, mutation occurs in clones but will 99.99% of the time end up causing cancerous growth or cell death. There are only very few option otherwise, and even then it is likely to cause deformity before any sort of advantage.


Also, there would be no way for chloroplasts to ever change or evolve on an organism-wide basis because there is no exchange of genetic material between chloroplasts of different cells. The cell wall prevents that. The chloroplasts could mutate but eventually the cell will die and the mutated chloroplasts go with it. You need to mutate the parent organism's dna.

 

[medicated00420]

From Wikipedia. In botany a sport or bud sport is a part of the plant (usually a woody plant but somtimes a herb)that shows morphological difference. From the rest of the plant.sports may differ in foliage shape or color,flower or branch structure

 

[medicated00420]

Had a nl5 haze plant grow one purple branch in veg so i clned the purple branch and all the clns flwerd out purple plants while the clns from green braches grew green plants

 

[Sativied]

But do those recessive traits eventually disappear altogether? Do any traits recede so far that they go away?

If a plant drifts, then it has mutated, has it not? And if it has mutated, then it has drifted…right?

None of the above. Recessive traits and genetic drift has nothing to do with clones. A plant does not drift. The frequency of genes of a population, i.e. many plants, over several generations, drifts because not all plants in a population get to either create or grow out offspring and those that do give per offspring only half there genes. In practice, if you select for the best 10 purple out of let's say 20 purple you possibly breed out some genes that are only in the 10 you didn't select, or in the green plants... It's very simply put the narrowing of the gene pool by luck or by accident. In this case when you select plants for seeds, not when you clone a clone...

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_24

Recessive refers to how a gene/allele combines with another. It does not mean the trait will slowly disappear. Even though in practice that's often 'indirectly' the result, many desirable traits are recessive (which means only recessive opposed to their counter half) and therefor have more change of survival. In practice, for example, pine is dominant of grape, but grape is dominant over banana. And that doesn't even mean pine is dominant over banana too. The dominant side (i.e. the gene on the chromosome from one parent) expresses its trait, automatically making the gene received from the other parent recessive. But only in that combi.

For example, in regards to eye color: "the green allele is dominant over the blue allele", which makes blue recessive to green. Brown however is dominant over green and blue, making green and blue recessive to brown.

http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask59
Check out the first table with genotypes and colors. Although there's in general less chance of getting blue eyes than others, as long as the 'b' (lower case 'b' specifically) is still in the genotype of multiple individuals in the population, there's a chance it will recombine with other lower case 'b' genes and hence not be dominated by a capital B(rown) or a G(green). If however for some reason all the people with blue eyes, green eyes, and all the people with brown eyes based on genes that include the lower case 'b', die, like in a massive earthquake that doesn't target people with the homozygous truebred BBGG genotype brown eye-ed people, then genetic drift occurred and there will never ever be blue eyed people again. Unless one mutates and passes on the trait to children who then pass it on to future generations till it recombines again in that inbred island. All nothing to do with cloning.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

To the OP - you should google Epigenetics. It will better explain why clones will differ from environment to environment.

Genetic drift - as understood by cannabis farmers - is something that does not exist.

Genetic drift - as understood and defined by scientists - is the process by which genes are culled from populations over time

 

[OGEvilgenius]

Also, I didn't exactly address the specific questions - yes, you can improve upon a clone most times. It's rare people have things dialed in perfectly. But, the genetics of the plant won't change. You're simply doing a better job than the guy who gifted you the clone.

 

[hyroot]

those recessive traits (father plant) usually do not appear in the seed plant. But show up in the 1st Gen clone. That's with a single cross. Now back crossing can make those traits come out in the seed form. Then theres stability. Ibl or.even bad breeding selections can result in unstable genetics.

 

[tstick]

Interesting! Thank you all very much!

 

[EverythingsHazy]

Recessive traits and genetic drift has nothing to do with clones. A plant does not drift.

Agreed. While spontaneous mutations can occur in all living things, there are too many things that would have to line up for genetic drift to work the way people claim, at least within a normal human's lifetime of growing/cloning via cuttings.

1, The plant would have to mutate.
2. The mutation would have to be on a gene that we pay attention to, such as the plant's appearance and effects.
3. The mutation would have to be strong enough that it is noticeable, or happen repeatedly to become more pronounced.


And after all of that, who's to say the mutation would be a negative one?



I think that a more likely culprit for the belief that keeping a strain for many generations causes it to degrade, is plant infections/infestations. Over time, especiailly if you use the same products on the plants to keep them free of pests and diseases, you can either cause your resident pathogens to evolve with a resistance to you and your plants' defenses (microbes reproduce and evolve much faster than other multi-cellular organisms like animals and plants), or you can just keep being lucky until you eventually come across a pathogen (possibly a plant virus) that contaminates your crop, and gets passed down through further cuttings.