Nutes beyond the basic grow/bloom: are they really worth it?

[fellowfelon]

inflated prices, order the stuff online. Down my way we have a local store but they sale their fertilizer 30-50% higher than u can get it off the web for.

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm too paranoid to order stuff online, so I have to pay the Tripper's Tax at my local store

cal mag supplement other than your basic NPK is usually the most important micro in my grow. with out it my plants suffer. I've heard good things about silica but I haven't used it before.

So I should get a cal mag bottle? Those things are pretty pricey too The grow nutes do list Calcium and Magnesium in their ingredients... Maybe that's good enough?

 

[green217]

Because I'm fairly new to this and I don't know what I'm doing... The dude at the hydro store sold me some AN telling me I won't have to adjust pH and shit, which seems attractive... I appreciate any input from experienced growers, and if you're telling me they suck I won't use them...

I'm very paranoid, so I would never buy something like nutes online, only in person and using cash, and even then I'll still be tripping

But I can also get Atami stuff.

All the stuff they are trying

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm too paranoid to order stuff online, so I have to pay the Tripper's Tax at my local store



So I should get a cal mag bottle? Those things are pretty pricey too The grow nutes do list Calcium and Magnesium in their ingredients... Maybe that's good enough?

Could be, depends on how much is in your water already to. If you are using RO water then yeah pick some up. Other wise you can wait it out. If you start getting deficiencies go buy some then.

 

[green217]

Like I mentioned earlier, I'm too paranoid to order stuff online, so I have to pay the Tripper's Tax at my local store



So I should get a cal mag bottle? Those things are pretty pricey too The grow nutes do list Calcium and Magnesium in their ingredients... Maybe that's good enough?

Dude I order online, lights,fans,nutes hell everything but soil. You will be ok over the internet, but nothing wrong with some caution.
I am not in a legal place. You can't tell what comes in the plain boxes they ship in.

 

[fellowfelon]

All the stuff they are trying

Could be, depends on how much is in your water already to. If you are using RO water then yeah pick some up. Other wise you can wait it out. If you start getting deficiencies go buy some then.

I'm using the water I drink myself, which come from a cooler that does some filtration, but not RO I don't think. Maybe I should just switch to straight tap anyway... But yeah I like the idea of waiting for need before buying.

Dude I order online, lights,fans,nutes hell everything but soil. You will be ok over the internet, but nothing wrong with some caution.
I am not in a legal place. You can't tell what comes in the plain boxes they ship in.

Man, you have no idea what crazy tripping I put myself through, ordering these things online is totally unfathomable to me haha... In my defense though I live in a super evil place where they will fuck. you. up. for this shit :'(

 

[Cobnobuler]

Man, you have no idea what crazy tripping I put myself through, ordering these things online is totally unfathomable to me haha... In my defense though I live in a super evil place where they will fuck. you. up. for this shit :'(

If you're gonna do this, you gotta come to terms with it and learn to relax. When you drop a seed you've made your choice. So get over the paranoia cause it will never do you any good anyway.
You have to be able to enjoy it to get the most out of it. Good luck.

 

[Skuzzy]

It's a little simplistic but it's like buying paracetamol or aspirin. Some people buy brand only. They swear buy it. The others don't work they say. Their headaches only respond to brand X they say. Maybe some of it is placebo (spend more = get more) but mostly I think it's special snowflake syndrome (I am so special and unique and wonderful that I need the special medicine that 'targets pain' and 'acts fast'.
If it says active ingredient: 500mg paracetamol on the 30c pack and the same on the $3 pack than it does the same exact thing (outside of delivery method).

Nutes are kind of similar. You learn what active ingredients there needs to be. You buy products that have those ingredients in the correct ratios. Or...you buy the stuff that claims; 'targeted release systems', 'works synergistically', 'improves on genetics' etc. I'm sure there are great products that are worth spending extra for but don't buy into marketing hype, research the claims, if they are genuine there will be scientific papers to back it up, if all there is anecdotal evidence then your BS senses should be tingling.

disclaimer: I am a noob grower, I have a scientific background, a nose for bull shit and I hate paying more for anything that is actually needed...

hmmmm : I wonder if the source of the term 'bull shit' meaning of dubious factual accuracy, actually had its origins the horticultural use of manure on plants?

 

[qwizoking]

Being a pharmacist, that analogy was horrible. Generic is not the same thing at all..

Anyway. My feelings on if you need nutes beyond the basic: no

What you should do is learn the action of each nute. Learn how to read and spot deficiencies in the plant then adjusting nute ratios to have a desired effect.

You can take a plant to harvest on any basic flowering fertilizer. But thats not to say it has perfect ratios of everything your specific plant needs. When pushing your plant this will really present itself, we arent just growing a plant, that would be easy. But put a 1k over allowing you to throw several times the amount of lumens as the sun and all of a sudden you have a mag deficiency etc. We are attempting to push the plant to its limits, just barely under the saturation point of the plant(light bleaching) pumping as much chlorophyll as possible, letting the plant have all the co2 it can use etc.. we arent driving around the block, were taking off the rev limiter and borderline throwing a rod while pumping out as much horsepower as the little engine can handle. Specific nutes are like adjusting the air/fuel ratio the timing, compression ratios, head design, size of exhaust valves and intake

You get the idea

 

[GrowUrOwnDank]

Being a pharmacist, that analogy was horrible. Generic is not the same thing at all..

Anyway. My feelings on if you need nutes beyond the basic: no

What you should do is learn the action of each nute. Learn how to read and spot deficiencies in the plant then adjusting nute ratios to have a desired effect.

You can take a plant to harvest on any basic flowering fertilizer. But thats not to say it has perfect ratios of everything your specific plant needs. When pushing your plant this will really present itself, we arent just growing a plant, that would be easy. But put a 1k over allowing you to throw several times the amount of lumens as the sun and all of a sudden you have a mag deficiency etc. We are attempting to push the plant to its limits, just barely under the saturation point of the plant(light bleaching) pumping as much chlorophyll as possible, letting the plant have all the co2 it can use etc.. we arent driving around the block, were taking off the rev limiter and borderline throwing a rod while pumping out as much horsepower as the little engine can handle. Specific nutes are like adjusting the air/fuel ratio the timing, compression ratios, head design, size of exhaust valves and intake

You get the idea

Although I'm not a fan of all the supplements, I agree. If you are the type that is going to obsess enough to educate yourself at how everything works I believe you can use the different Chems to push the plant to higher yields etc.

But, let's face it. Most hobby growers can't or don't do that. They rely on the manufacturers marketing to make them believe that if they add a little of this and a little of that miraculously the plant will the biggest one ever. Noobs are especially vulnerable. That's why we see so many burnt up plants in the problems section. You really should know a lot more if you are going to venture into using advanced nutrients.

Anyway, I'm admittedly lazy. I just wanna grow some dank fast, cheap and with as little effort as possible. That's why I start with good genes, do Hempy bucket and Lucas formula using a PH meter and just 3 Chems. GH Maxibloom, CalMag and PH up.

It's really not that hard to grow dank. Folks tend to over think it and the nute people take advantage and sell into their obsession to find the holy grail.

 

[Skuzzy]

Being a pharmacist, that analogy was horrible. Generic is not the same thing at all..

FDA: Facts about Generic Drugs



The FDA disagrees with you.

 

[qwizoking]

None of what you said was fact.
Do you know how much the mg content is allowed to be off by? How different binders effect bioavailability? Or ratios of drug as in amphetamine salt combinations?
This is why different brands have different effect. Why moms come up to me all wanting me to start ordering the "pink 20mg adderall" for example

 

[Skuzzy]

Look, no offence, I am sure that on this occasion you are exactly what you claim to be but... on one hand I have the FDA claiming that there is basically no difference and on the other I have you, a guy on the internet. If you were me who would you believe?

Just saying. It's nothing personal, I would be a fool to believe you, a no name stranger over a seemingly reliable source right? Even if you proved your credentials as a pharmacologist I would still trust the FDA over just you.

It's just the world we live in. Believe nothing. It's the internet. The source of mis-information.

 

[qwizoking]

Then actally do some research..

The fda doesnt say they are exactly the same. And in fact cant be as many drugs are patented

 

[Skuzzy]

Are you just trolling now? Anyway from the link above:

• FDA recently evaluated 2,070 human studies conducted between 1996 and 2007. These studies compared the absorption of brand name and generic drugs into a person’s body. These studies were submitted to FDA to support approval of generics. The average difference in absorption into the body between the generic and the brand name was 3.5 percent[2]. Some generics were absorbed slightly more, some slightly less. This amount of difference would be expected and acceptable, whether for one batch of brand name drug tested against another batch of the same brand, or for a generic tested against a brand name drug. In fact, there have been studies in which brand name drugs were compared with themselves as well as with a generic. As a rule, the difference for the generic-to-brand comparison was about the same as the brand-to-brand comparison.

As for your statement: The fda doesnt say they are exactly the same:

"Generic drugs are required to have the same active ingredient, strength, dosage form, and route of administration as the brand name product" SOURCE : http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/BuyingUsingMedicineSafely/UnderstandingGenericDrugs/ucm167991.htm

 

[whitebb2727]

Look, no offence, I am sure that on this occasion you are exactly what you claim to be but... on one hand I have the FDA claiming that there is basically no difference and on the other I have you, a guy on the internet. If you were me who would you believe?

Just saying. It's nothing personal, I would be a fool to believe you, a no name stranger over a seemingly reliable source right? Even if you proved your credentials as a pharmacologist I would still trust the FDA over just you.

It's just the world we live in. Believe nothing. It's the internet. The source of mis-information.

Generic drugs are allowed to be as much as 30% off the original drug. Everything qwizo said is true. The fda is a lieing sac of shit.

 

[qwizoking]

Ooooh ooooh my turn

In 2012, the FDA conceded that several generic antidepressant medications had never been tested and one was pulled from the market.


A company that makes a generic drug must show that its version of the drug is 80%-125% “bioequivalent” to the original brand name drug. For example: a brand name drug is taken and it is found that 100mg of medicine reaches the person’s bloodstream. For a generic version of the drug to be considered safe and effective, the active drug in the tablet or capsule must release between 80mg and 125mg reach the bloodstream (80-125%). This means that some companies might make generic versions that have 80mg reach the bloodstream and other companies might make generic versions that have 125mg reach the bloodstream. This difference isn’t a problem in most drugs. There are a few drugs, however, in which this can be an issue.

For example, some drugs are only safe and effective when the amount of medicine is within a small range in the bloodstream. This small range is called a “narrow therapeutic window.” This means that a small change in dose can cause a large change in the way the drug acts in the body. Below the therapeutic window, the drug is not effective. Above the therapeutic window, the drug could be harmful because too much drug is getting into the bloodstream. It is critical that the medicine be given in a dose that falls in the safe and effective range.

Let’s say a person is taking one of these drugs with a narrow therapeutic window. They have been taking a generic version of the drug that is 80% bioequivalent to the original brand name drug. After a few months, their pharmacy orders a generic version of the same drug that is made by a different company. This new version is 125% bioequivalent to the original brand name drug. This means that the new version of the drug could contain as much as 45% more active drug than the old version.

There are only a few drugs that have narrow therapeutic windows that need to be worried about. Some of these drugs include:


• Warfarin (used to prevent blood clots)
• Theophylline (used to improve breathing in people with asthma and other lung diseases)
• Phenytoin (used to prevent and treat seizures)
• Clonidine (used to treat high blood pressure)
• Quinidine (used to keep your heartbeat normal)
• Levothyroxine (used to treat low thyroid activity)


Most of the ingredients in a pill are not the active ingredient but other ingredients needed to hold the pill together, coat it, and control the way the pill delivers its drug in your body. These other ingredients can be different in a generic version of a drug. It is possible to have an allergic reaction or sensitivity to one of these ingredients. With some extended-release products, the brand name formula is still patented, so the generics may be completely different in their formulation. This can affect how fast or slow they release their drug and how this is affected by things like whether you take the pills with food or not.

FDA requires that the package inserts for generic drugs show the data (the “pharmacokinetic” data) from the brand name medication as if it is were based on the performance of the generic drug. In actuality, the data for the generic is typically different, but the FDA does not release this information.



Fun quotes

 

[Cobnobuler]

I know this. As a former opiate addict I was in no way willing to give up that 20 %

 

[SourD420]

Say the fuck what?!?!
No they don't!

Now this could be PiK's little brother!



Gee wizz, sorry to hear your choice's are so limited! I have never said AN didn't work.....It does. If that's your choice's, go ahead and use the AN. I might use a Silica supplement with any of your choice's.....You should know that the Si will lower the pH of your mix....But media dependent, not a big problem.....

Our problem with AN is how they market and what they claim.....BS......If you chose it. Feed only every other watering....

Good luck!

Doc

Your hate for AN is ridiculous. Look on youtube and you will see tons of big grows that are using AN. You will also see plenty other "high end" nute companies being used. Just because you dont use it doeant mean it doesnt work great for others. AN is a great nute line to use if he doesnt know what he is doing. Trying to make his own nutrients as a beginner is just going to confuse the hell out of him

 

[whitebb2727]

Ooooh ooooh my turn

In 2012, the FDA conceded that several generic antidepressant medications had never been tested and one was pulled from the market.


A company that makes a generic drug must show that its version of the drug is 80%-125% “bioequivalent” to the original brand name drug. For example: a brand name drug is taken and it is found that 100mg of medicine reaches the person’s bloodstream. For a generic version of the drug to be considered safe and effective, the active drug in the tablet or capsule must release between 80mg and 125mg reach the bloodstream (80-125%). This means that some companies might make generic versions that have 80mg reach the bloodstream and other companies might make generic versions that have 125mg reach the bloodstream. This difference isn’t a problem in most drugs. There are a few drugs, however, in which this can be an issue.

For example, some drugs are only safe and effective when the amount of medicine is within a small range in the bloodstream. This small range is called a “narrow therapeutic window.” This means that a small change in dose can cause a large change in the way the drug acts in the body. Below the therapeutic window, the drug is not effective. Above the therapeutic window, the drug could be harmful because too much drug is getting into the bloodstream. It is critical that the medicine be given in a dose that falls in the safe and effective range.

Let’s say a person is taking one of these drugs with a narrow therapeutic window. They have been taking a generic version of the drug that is 80% bioequivalent to the original brand name drug. After a few months, their pharmacy orders a generic version of the same drug that is made by a different company. This new version is 125% bioequivalent to the original brand name drug. This means that the new version of the drug could contain as much as 45% more active drug than the old version.

There are only a few drugs that have narrow therapeutic windows that need to be worried about. Some of these drugs include:


• Warfarin (used to prevent blood clots)
• Theophylline (used to improve breathing in people with asthma and other lung diseases)
• Phenytoin (used to prevent and treat seizures)
• Clonidine (used to treat high blood pressure)
• Quinidine (used to keep your heartbeat normal)
• Levothyroxine (used to treat low thyroid activity)


Most of the ingredients in a pill are not the active ingredient but other ingredients needed to hold the pill together, coat it, and control the way the pill delivers its drug in your body. These other ingredients can be different in a generic version of a drug. It is possible to have an allergic reaction or sensitivity to one of these ingredients. With some extended-release products, the brand name formula is still patented, so the generics may be completely different in their formulation. This can affect how fast or slow they release their drug and how this is affected by things like whether you take the pills with food or not.

FDA requires that the package inserts for generic drugs show the data (the “pharmacokinetic” data) from the brand name medication as if it is were based on the performance of the generic drug. In actuality, the data for the generic is typically different, but the FDA does not release this information.



Fun quotes

That is what I was getting at. You explained it better. Yea its a toss up.

 

[beepotron]

Anyone using additives probably owns an iphone and thinks it is 'better' in some way. Retarded fuckwits.

 

[bluerock]

...moms come up to me all wanting me to start ordering the "pink 20mg adderall" for example

Bingo! Those moms are right. If only I could get a prescription...what a wonderful world it would be.