The Rev’s vs Subcool’s Super Soil

[ButchyBoy]

I remember you getting into this book butchy and advising me to read it ......half way through one of .MD's forums I think.....and I never did....... but ......I've heard so much about it now that it's turned into a MUST read for me now.........

You NEED to read that book!!!! I am currently reading "Botany for Gardeners"

Reading Teaming with microbes changed the way I look at soil and "shit got real"!!! Reading this Botany book is changing the way I look at plants. It reinforces the absolute importance of the roots and leafs by explaining the processes that are going on within the plant. It gives you an understanding of why defoliation is an absolute joke and hurts your plant more than most will ever understand!

The wife and I just watched a show on Netflix called "How to grow a planet" parts of it are kinda boring but there are a ton of explanations about how plants evolved and the importance of each and every part of the plant.

It may sound crazy but the more I learn about soil and plants the less time I spend with them. I no longer walk into my room and think to myself, what is wrong today, what do I need to do. I now do a quick look over for bugs, probe the 18 gallon tubs to check moisture levels and walk away if it is not water time.

All in all the more I learn the less time I have to spend in the room!!

 

[swiftkillpapa]

You NEED to read that book!!!! I am currently reading "Botany for Gardeners"

Reading Teaming with microbes changed the way I look at soil and "shit got real"!!! Reading this Botany book is changing the way I look at plants. It reinforces the absolute importance of the roots and leafs by explaining the processes that are going on within the plant. It gives you an understanding of why defoliation is an absolute joke and hurts your plant more than most will ever understand!

The wife and I just watched a show on Netflix called "How to grow a planet" parts of it are kinda boring but there are a ton of explanations about how plants evolved and the importance of each and every part of the plant.

It may sound crazy but the more I learn about soil and plants the less time I spend with them. I no longer walk into my room and think to myself, what is wrong today, what do I need to do. I now do a quick look over for bugs, probe the 18 gallon tubs to check moisture levels and walk away if it is not water time.

All in all the more I learn the less time I have to spend in the room!!

I use defoliation on my tomatoes and I like the results but I'm hesitant on my bud plants. My tomato plant if like 7 feet high now on a trellis with the bottom 3 feet with nothing but tomatoes. No branches or leaves. I do it once a month and take off everything but the top 3 to 5 leaves on each branch. I'm just seeing what happens but would you mind explaining why it's a bad idea?

 

[ButchyBoy]

I use defoliation on my tomatoes and I like the results but I'm hesitant on my bud plants. My tomato plant if like 7 feet high now on a trellis with the bottom 3 feet with nothing but tomatoes. No branches or leaves. I do it once a month and take off everything but the top 3 to 5 leaves on each branch. I'm just seeing what happens but would you mind explaining why it's a bad idea?

I will gladly try and will accept any help or criticism that may come my way. I also understand that some plants might benefit from pruning as do my fruit trees and tomatoes.

This is not a debate on defoliation so get out of here!! There are plenty of those threads so go find one...

The leaves do many different things. They collect valuable light used to create exudates that are secreted by the roots. Those in turn mingle with the microbes around the roots (Rhizosphere). Once that happens the roots can uptake the needed nutrients from the soil and send it to the leaves where it is converted into usable food (sugars) for the plant and sent out or stored for later use. They also breath for the plant. Removing them would be the same as removing food reserves and a lung.

When our plants near the end of flowering they fade naturally due to the end of the life cycle. This is when it is eating up the reserve food. You have to remember.... flowering is done for the sole purpose of recreating its self. In our plants perfect world it would have flowers full of seeds then it would die and drop them to start the next cycle of life. It's goal in life is to multiply and some of us do everything we can to keep it from growing seeds. Some of us force them to seed.

Sorry I rambled and got boring.... Basically plants neeeed leafs!!!

Here is a copy paste...

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/plants/leaf/

Leaves are the power house of plants! In most plants they are the major site of food production. Structures within a leaf convert the energy in sunlight into chemical energy that the plant can use as food. Chlorophyll is the molecule in leaves that uses the energy in sunlight to turn water (H2O) and carbon dioxide gas (CO2) into sugar and oxygen gas (O2). photosynthesis.....
A leaf is made of many layers that are sandwiched between two layers of tough skin cells (called the epidermis). The epidermis also secretes a waxy substance called the cuticle. These layers protect the leaf from insects, bacteria, and other pests. Among the epidermal cells are pairs of sausage-shaped guard cells. Each pair of guard cells forms a pore (called stoma; the plural is stomata). Gases enter and exit the leaf through the stomata.
Most food production takes place in elongated cells called palisade mesophyll. Gas exchange occurs in the air spaces between the oddly-shaped cells of the spongy mesophyll. Veins support the leaf and are filled with vessels that transport food, water, and minerals to the plant.

 

[Dr.Pecker]

Butchy boy has seen the light!

 

[ButchyBoy]

Butchy boy has seen the light!

I have ???


oh I mean I have!!! Lol..

 

[swiftkillpapa]

I will gladly try and will accept any help or criticism that may come my way. I also understand that some plants might benefit from pruning as do my fruit trees and tomatoes.

This is not a debate on defoliation so get out of here!! There are plenty of those threads so go find one...

The leaves do many different things. They collect valuable light used to create exudates that are secreted by the roots. Those in turn mingle with the microbes around the roots (Rhizosphere). Once that happens the roots can uptake the needed nutrients from the soil and send it to the leaves where it is converted into usable food (sugars) for the plant and sent out or stored for later use. They also breath for the plant. Removing them would be the same as removing food reserves and a lung.

When our plants near the end of flowering they fade naturally due to the end of the life cycle. This is when it is eating up the reserve food. You have to remember.... flowering is done for the sole purpose of recreating its self. In our plants perfect world it would have flowers full of seeds then it would die and drop them to start the next cycle of life. It's goal in life is to multiply and some of us do everything we can to keep it from growing seeds. Some of us force them to seed.

Sorry I rambled and got boring.... Basically plants neeeed leafs!!!

Here is a copy paste...

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/plants/leaf/

Leaves are the power house of plants! In most plants they are the major site of food production. Structures within a leaf convert the energy in sunlight into chemical energy that the plant can use as food. Chlorophyll is the molecule in leaves that uses the energy in sunlight to turn water (H2O) and carbon dioxide gas (CO2) into sugar and oxygen gas (O2). photosynthesis.....
A leaf is made of many layers that are sandwiched between two layers of tough skin cells (called the epidermis). The epidermis also secretes a waxy substance called the cuticle. These layers protect the leaf from insects, bacteria, and other pests. Among the epidermal cells are pairs of sausage-shaped guard cells. Each pair of guard cells forms a pore (called stoma; the plural is stomata). Gases enter and exit the leaf through the stomata.
Most food production takes place in elongated cells called palisade mesophyll. Gas exchange occurs in the air spaces between the oddly-shaped cells of the spongy mesophyll. Veins support the leaf and are filled with vessels that transport food, water, and minerals to the plant.

Thanks man. Helps a lot. So only have a few questions mostly bc I really just don't know and the vague ideas I do have make me wonder. Certain stresses cause plants to do certain things right? Different hormones for different actions on and around the plants. Does taking some leaves, normal trimming, make it depends more on the healthy strong leaves and save energy by not wasting space essentially? but by taking most, defoliation, does it cause any hormones to speed up new growth? Bc from what I read about it that's the theory they go on. I'm just asking for your opinion bc well you seem to be more informed than I and more seasoned. Which I hope you can understand I respect your knowledge and thank you for the help.
And please if I'm miss guided at all correct me. To me criticism is neither good nor bad just the necessity of growth.

 

[Elchacal]

Thanks man. Helps a lot. So only have a few questions mostly bc I really just don't know and the vague ideas I do have make me wonder. Certain stresses cause plants to do certain things right? Different hormones for different actions on and around the plants. Does taking some leaves, normal trimming, make it depends more on the healthy strong leaves and save energy by not wasting space essentially? but by taking most, defoliation, does it cause any hormones to speed up new growth? Bc from what I read about it that's the theory they go on. I'm just asking for your opinion bc well you seem to be more informed than I and more seasoned. Which I hope you can understand I respect your knowledge and thank you for the help.
And please if I'm miss guided at all correct me. To me criticism is neither good nor bad just the necessity of growth.

I want to give my small opinion on that, I think that the plant will depend on the healthy strong leaves anyway regardless you take off the less healthy leaves or not, the plant is smart and know how to maximize the benefits of limited resources. The new healthy leaves on the upper part of the plant will be for collecting the light, while the old healthy leaves on the middle will be responsible for food reserve and the lower less healthy leaves will still have some food reserve and I dont think that these lower less healthy leaves waist energy because they are auto feeded and the little that remains from their food they will give it to the plant, and they will not grow in size any more, they will not use any new energy because the plant is smart she will not give energy to already useless elements, they will die by time. Only reason why you may want to defoliate, IMO, is to get the light go through to lower buds, and for that, I prefer Scrog than defoliation.
Ah one more thing, to take off some leaves so the the plant produce leaves faster, this doesnt make sense for me, sorry, it is like going steps back to be able to do something faster, so now you are really faster but you restart from an old point so at the end you will end the same

 

[swiftkillpapa]

I dig it. And this is about the soil bc the leaves produce what the roots feed the microbes while the microbes feed the roots. Everything connects. Butchyboy what book taught you that?

 

[ButchyBoy]

Thanks man. Helps a lot. So only have a few questions mostly bc I really just don't know and the vague ideas I do have make me wonder. Certain stresses cause plants to do certain things right? Different hormones for different actions on and around the plants. Does taking some leaves, normal trimming, make it depends more on the healthy strong leaves and save energy by not wasting space essentially? but by taking most, defoliation, does it cause any hormones to speed up new growth? Bc from what I read about it that's the theory they go on. I'm just asking for your opinion bc well you seem to be more informed than I and more seasoned. Which I hope you can understand I respect your knowledge and thank you for the help.
And please if I'm miss guided at all correct me. To me criticism is neither good nor bad just the necessity of growth.

Again I will do my best with the understanding that I have...

Every part of the plant is important to the growth of the plant. Normal trimming is not normal at all for a plant! The only time a plant will "trim" it self is when there is a deficiency or it is at the end of it's life cycle. It will pull the reserve foods from the leaves if it is not getting enough through the root system to feed the leaves who in turn feed the plant (roots do not feed the plant directly). Once the leaf has given all it can it falls off of the plant and then gives to the soil. Mmmmm.. organic's....

So I would say it does not make the plant pull "more" from other leaves. A leaf can only give so much!! In other words the plant is stressed due to loosing a vital food producing part of the plant.. Freeing up the space a leaf was in does nothing for the plant other than increase air circulation ( leaves absorb light to create food not flowers).

Removing (defoliating) leaves will not speed up a plant. It will however slow it down for a short amount of time. When you cut a piece off of the plant it now has to repair the cut. That uses energy the plant was using to grow bigger. Example would be during veg. we pinch or top the plants to increase flower sites. this slows down the growth until the cuts have healed. Once healed we see the growth again.

I have said this before and will continue to say it.... Once I stopped trying to learn by reading the grow forums and started reading valid info such as books on botany and soil my grows have gotten way better!!! People put way to much effort into these plants which are in fact weeds!! I know because I was one of them for a long time Lol!! Throughout your reading here you will see "less is more". That holds true as it can get!! The majority of issues you will see here are due to over feeding one thing or another causing lockouts of specific nutrients. Yes, too much of one thing will stop the uptake of another.

There are specific people here who are trustworthy info givers. it's up to you to figure out who they are. I don't consider myself one of them but I am heading in the right direction I hope!!

 

[ButchyBoy]

I dig it. And this is about the soil bc the leaves produce what the roots feed the microbes while the microbes feed the roots. Everything connects. Butchyboy what book taught you that?

Teaming with Microbes.... The best book I have read to date!!! Get it! read it! You will be happy you did.

Also read as many books as you can on Botany. Knowing how a plant works along with how living soil works is pure gold!!!!

 

[ButchyBoy]

I want to give my small opinion on that, I think that the plant will depend on the healthy strong leaves anyway regardless you take off the less healthy leaves or not, the plant is smart and know how to maximize the benefits of limited resources. The new healthy leaves on the upper part of the plant will be for collecting the light, while the old healthy leaves on the middle will be responsible for food reserve and the lower less healthy leaves will still have some food reserve and I dont think that these lower less healthy leaves waist energy because they are auto feeded and the little that remains from their food they will give it to the plant, and they will not grow in size any more, they will not use any new energy because the plant is smart she will not give energy to already useless elements, they will die by time. Only reason why you may want to defoliate, IMO, is to get the light go through to lower buds, and for that, I prefer Scrog than defoliation.
Ah one more thing, to take off some leaves so the the plant produce leaves faster, this doesnt make sense for me, sorry, it is like going steps back to be able to do something faster, so now you are really faster but you restart from an old point so at the end you will end the same

You have to remember that there is a reason the leaves are turning yellow. Allowing the plant to use up ALL of the food from the leaf is the best thing you can do while you sort out the why they are turning yellow. If you are within the last few weeks of flowering the yellowing is normal as the plant is bulking up the flowers near the end of it's life cycle and is getting ready to die and drop the seeds it would have produced in order to pass on it's offspring. We grow the flowers for consumption, the plant grows them in order to recreate it's self because in nature it is going to die.

Also, all leaves collect light no matter the location on the plant. Leaves are the food producers for the flowers so removing leaves is the same as reducing the available food for the flowers.

 

[Elchacal]

You have to remember that there is a reason the leaves are turning yellow. Allowing the plant to use up ALL of the food from the leaf is the best thing you can do while you sort out the why they are turning yellow. If you are within the last few weeks of flowering the yellowing is normal as the plant is bulking up the flowers near the end of it's life cycle and is getting ready to die and drop the seeds it would have produced in order to pass on it's offspring. We grow the flowers for consumption, the plant grows them in order to recreate it's self because in nature it is going to die.

Also, all leaves collect light no matter the location on the plant. Leaves are the food producers for the flowers so removing leaves is the same as reducing the available food for the flowers.

You may misunderstand me, ok I am not a mother tounge english speaker, I absolutely agree with you, we have to leave the lower leaves alone, they will discharge the food they have by auto-feeding and giving a little to tha plant , then yellow and die. It is like an additional battery, why to remove them? they will not hurt or abuse the limited energy of the plant. Even in the case that they can not collect light any more in the case you are using a low penetrating indoor light, they still have a food reserve very usefull to the plant and its flowers.

 

[Elchacal]

Ah, for air circulation, I would use a fan at the lower level of the plant instead of defoliation