Topping up the nutrient mixture

[FallenHero]

well first thing tomorrow we should all go to the bank and see if we can remortgage our houses, so we can get al's fancy meter and throw nutes away every 2 weeks and then we can all grow like al and get those extra few grams

so much for my sons college fund..

 

[Al B. Fuct]

But what I was saying was that if your plant is using more of one nutrient than another then the proportion will be all out of balance anyway so could it be better to add more to make sure all nutrients are present?

Ok, let's say your freshly mixed solution has 10% "x", 20% "y" and 10% "z." At the end of 2 weeks, we'll arbitrarily propose that it has 6% "x", 9% "y" and 4% "z."

So, what happens when you add some freshly mixed 10% "x", 20% "y" and 10% "z" to your depleted 6% "x", 9% "y" and 4% "z" solution?

See what I mean now?

 

[Al B. Fuct]

so much for my sons college fund..

Well, that's the point, isn't it?

It's much cheaper, both in outright cost and in the results obtained from proper use, to just use the nutes the way they were designed to be used, innit?

And incidentally, I would happily lend my shiny new mass spectrometer out to anyone who would use it to do some really interesting research like tracking exactly how much of every nutrient, mineral and micronutrient that a plant uses for every second it is in the grow op- or tracing what nutrient and growth aid chemicals actually wind up in the buds, piece o' cake with a mass spectrometer.

 

[nongreenthumb]

Ok, let's say your freshly mixed solution has 10% "x", 20% "y" and 10% "z." At the end of 2 weeks, we'll arbitrarily propose that it has 6% "x", 9% "y" and 4% "z."

So, what happens when you add some freshly mixed 10% "x", 20% "y" and 10% "z" to your depleted 6% "x", 9% "y" and 4% "z" solution?

See what I mean now?

your left with some confused stoners by using percentages and then having to figure out which is which

add percentages to depleted percentages, if you had done it in a volume measurement it would have been easier to see

i could work out your way i just cant really be bothered ive wasted enough time on you already

keep up the good dumping canna loves you lots

 

[Al B. Fuct]

your left with some confused stoners by using percentages and then having to figure out which is which

The point of not discussing this in terms of actual nutrients was to get you to think about how proportional concentrations of the various elements will change if you mix together solutions with different combinations of proportions of the components.

The x, y & z example is about as simple as I can make it.

You can pretend to not understand for the purpose of storming off without actually defending your point, if you like... but if you really don't understand what happens when mixing solutions with differing proportions of dissolved elements- you probably shouldn't be mucking around with it.

 

[GreenGro]

Ok, let's say your freshly mixed solution has 10% "x", 20% "y" and 10% "z." At the end of 2 weeks, we'll arbitrarily propose that it has 6% "x", 9% "y" and 4% "z."

So, what happens when you add some freshly mixed 10% "x", 20% "y" and 10% "z" to your depleted 6% "x", 9% "y" and 4% "z" solution?

See what I mean now?

Well not really because they are all out of original proportion at 6%, 9% & 4% but if you added more nutes you would increase the levels of each - they'd be out of proportion but they are in any case so I don't see the difference with that sorry


**EDIT**
Though I can see now Al that you said these nutes were to the lower level after 2 weeks but I was more talking about topping with nutes between tank changes, surelly it would be better than water if some nutes were running low

 

[nongreenthumb]

The point of not discussing this in terms of actual nutrients was to get you to think about how proportional concentrations of the various elements will change if you mix together solutions with different combinations of proportions of the components.

The x, y & z example is about as simple as I can make it.

You can pretend to not understand for the purpose of storming off without actually defending your point, if you like... but if you really don't understand what happens when mixing solutions with differing proportions of dissolved elements- you probably shouldn't be mucking around with it.

Ok then I'll be a big man,

I'm wrong Al is right throw your nutrients away every 2 weeks so you can get perfect ratios,

but as green gro said even 2 weeks after a tank change the nutes have already changed. even after a day, so what the fuck is this thread about now

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Well not really because they are all out of original proportion at 6%, 9% & 4% but if you added more nutes you would increase the levels of each - they'd be out of proportion but they are in any case so I don't see the difference with that sorry

Aha! You've actually got it, even though you don't think you do! Good going.

A fresh tank has the components in the maker's intended proportions. The components are depleted over a 2 week life of the tank of sauce. You put everything right by dumping and mixing up a new tank. Simple.

If you add stuff to the depleted tank, you may end up with more than the intended proportional concentration of some things and less of others. The point is, you don't KNOW what you're winding up with- unless you mix up per the maker's instructions. Not many will give you an instruction on how to 'freshen' a depleted tank of sauce.

 

[nongreenthumb]

Aha! You've actually got it, even though you don't think you do! Good going.

A fresh tank has the components in the maker's intended proportions. The components are depleted over a 2 week life of the tank of sauce. You put everything right by dumping and mixing up a new tank. Simple.

If you add stuff to the depleted tank, you may end up with more than the intended proportional concentration of some things and less of others. The point is, you don't KNOW what you're winding up with- unless you mix up per the maker's instructions. Not many will give you an instruction on how to 'freshen' a depleted tank of sauce.

but every makers ratios are different whats the score there?

what does it really matter if the ratios are slightly out to give that much extra effort and cost

still not convinced

 

[Al B. Fuct]

throw your nutrients away every 2 weeks so you can get perfect ratios,

Cheaper than a mass spectrometer, innit?

but as green gro said even 2 weeks after a tank change the nutes have already changed. even after a day,

Quite correct- but this is one of the factors that the chemical engineers at the nutrient makers consider. This is why they specify a particular lifespan for a tank of sauce.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

but every makers ratios are different whats the score there?

While the mixing procedures and number of parts of the solutions as retailed for various brands of nutes are different, the resulting NPK and micronute ratios when you mix up a tank are going to fall within a certain range that the cannabis plant likes. They won't be too different at the end of the day.

what does it really matter if the ratios are slightly out to give that much extra effort and cost

still not convinced

If you're spending $60 per dump, I really have to suggest that you to shop around a bit for your nutes. I think you might be able to get a better deal.

I still have to encourage you that you should use the sauces as the maker intends. Trying to get more life out of a tank is a false economy. Take from that what you will, but I will be using that company's expertise to my best advantage.

 

[nongreenthumb]

While the mixing procedures and number of parts of the solutions as retailed for various brands of nutes are different, the resulting NPK and micronute ratios when you mix up a tank are going to fall within a certain range that the cannabis plant likes. They won't be too different at the end of the day.

If you're spending $60 per dump, I really have to suggest that you to shop around a bit for your nutes. I think you might be able to get a better deal.

I still have to encourage you that you should use the sauces as the maker intends. Trying to get more life out of a tank is a false economy. Take from that what you will, but I will be using that company's expertise to my best advantage.

the nutes say to change every 4 weeks anyway.

a 2 litre bottle of my nutrients is 20 bucks

read my post earlier as to how i got to that cost

 

[nongreenthumb]

While the mixing procedures and number of parts of the solutions as retailed for various brands of nutes are different, the resulting NPK and micronute ratios when you mix up a tank are going to fall within a certain range that the cannabis plant likes. They won't be too different at the end of the day.

[/quote]

so it could be as different as leaving your tank an extra week or 2 and topping up with the correct ratio water

 

[Al B. Fuct]

**EDIT**
Though I can see now Al that you said these nutes were to the lower level after 2 weeks but I was more talking about topping with nutes between tank changes, surelly it would be better than water if some nutes were running low

If you only add water, the nutrients remain close to the proportions that the maker intends- for the specified tank life. If you're adding more nute mix, there's a good chance that you're going to have much more of one nutrient in proportion to others.

Again, if all you can measure is the total electrical conductivity of the solution, not the quantity of the individual dissolved elements, you are not getting enough information to know what to add. When you add more nute mix, you're adding ALL components, not just the depleted ones.

It's not that expensive to just use the stuff as the makers intend, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel without proper wheelmaking tools.

 

[nongreenthumb]

If you only add water, the nutrients remain close to the proportions that the maker intends- for the specified tank life. If you're adding more nute mix, there's a good chance that you're going to have much more of one nutrient in proportion to others.

Again, if all you can measure is the total electrical conductivity of the solution, not the quantity of the individual dissolved elements, you are not getting enough information to know what to add. When you add more nute mix, you're adding ALL components, not just the depleted ones.

It's not that expensive to just use the stuff as the makers intend, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel without proper wheelmaking tools.

this just doesnt make sense at all

if you just add water you keep it at the makers recommend ratios

but if its drinking them at different rates, how would that make it closer

you dont make any sense what so ever


adding more of the correct ratio will bring it closer to the makers original recipe

 

[Al B. Fuct]

the nutes say to change every 4 weeks anyway.

Do they tell you to add more nute mix in between monthly tank dumps?

a 2 litre bottle of my nutrients is 20 bucks

Yeah, I saw that. A little exxy on the per litre basis. Can you cut costs by buying bigger containers? Anyone else local to you have a better deal?

There's some other things you're using which you might be able to do without. I have cut it all down to only nutes, H2O2, pH Down (phosphoric acid type for flowering, nitric acid type for vegging my mums) and a phosphorus supplement which only gets used in wk3 of flowering.

Canna would love to sell me their VERY expensive 'Rhizotonic' root stimulant (about $50-60/litre or more), but if I don't induce root diseases by overwatering and keep pathogens in check with H2O2, I just don't need it.

Hydro shops sell tons of 'magic sauces' which often do nothing or don't do enough to justify their cost. I started off years ago by trying several things as suggested by salespeople or other well-meaning folks and just stopped using them to see if there was any difference. More often than not, there wasn't enough difference to justify the cost.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

this just doesnt make sense at all

It does, read it again.

if you just add water you keep it at the makers recommend ratios

but if its drinking them at different rates, how would that make it closer

Ooooookay- once more- with feeling!

The maker expects that the component nutrients will be consumed over the specified lifetime of a tank. The solutions are designed so that the nute proportions will remain IN AN ACCEPTABLE RANGE for that lifetime. It's a bell-curve.

adding more of the correct ratio will bring it closer to the makers original recipe

Nope. Adding more freshly mixed sauce will push some proportions too high while making others closer to the middle of the bell curve.

Again, without a mass spectrometer, you won't know what to add- and if you're adding more nutrient mix, which contains everything, not just the stuff that's been depleted, you're throwing the proportions out of the range the maker intends.

 

[nongreenthumb]

Do they tell you to add more nute mix in between monthly tank dumps?



Yeah, I saw that. A little exxy on the per litre basis. Can you cut costs by buying bigger containers? Anyone else local to you have a better deal?

There's some other things you're using which you might be able to do without. I have cut it all down to only nutes, H2O2, pH Down (phosphoric acid type for flowering, nitric acid type for vegging my mums) and a phosphorus supplement which only gets used in wk3 of flowering.

Canna would love to sell me their VERY expensive 'Rhizotonic' root stimulant (about $50-60/litre or more), but if I don't induce root diseases by overwatering and keep pathogens in check with H2O2, I just don't need it.

Hydro shops sell tons of 'magic sauces' which often do nothing or don't do enough to justify their cost. I started off years ago by trying several things as suggested by salespeople or other well-meaning folks and just stopped using them to see if there was any difference. More often than not, there wasn't enough difference to justify the cost.

i could buy 20 litre containers but i dont have the funds to do so, its quite often a stretch to get to a 2litre when i need it.

i dont use the whole range i dont think everythings needed,

i use grow bloom and boost plus super drive/thrive

plus i use liquid silicon occasionally as a ph up

on your previous info though, i take it to a simpler level

you have 10 litres of water in that water there are the 3 main nutes
10ml n
10ml p
10ml k

so you use 5 litres of water and top it back up to 2.0 ec
but the plants have taken nutes and your left with
7ml n
3ml p
4ml k

so the ratios are way out there, but youve added water and got it back to an ec of 2.0 in relation to the water,

you still have 5 litres of water to top up but instead you fill this with ec 2.0 with 5,5,5 because its half of the original value
so then you have 11,8,9

these ratios really arent that far out and less so than not topping up with nutes.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

i could buy 20 litre containers but i dont have the funds to do so, its quite often a stretch to get to a 2litre when i need it.

Fair enough; if you can save up and buy the bigger ones sometime later on, it probably would save you a little.

so the ratios are way out there, but youve added water and got it back to an ec of 2.0 in relation to the water,

If you add freshly mixed stuff with the right proportions to a depleted tank, you're still going to wind up with unknown and probably excessive concentrations of some nutes. You still can't measure individual nutes in the solution with an EC meter. All you can measure is the TOTAL solution conductivity.

If you don't have bottles of the individual component nutrients and a mass spectrometer handy, you're never going to get the proportions of a 'freshened' tank identical to that of a freshly mixed tank.

On saving money, could you reduce your tank sizes to use less mix per dump?

 

[nongreenthumb]

Fair enough; if you can save up and buy the bigger ones sometime later on, it probably would save you a little.



If you add freshly mixed stuff with the right proportions to a depleted tank, you're still going to wind up with unknown and probably excessive concentrations of some nutes. You still can't measure individual nutes in the solution with an EC meter. All you can measure is the TOTAL solution conductivity.

If you don't have bottles of the individual component nutrients and a mass spectrometer handy, you're never going to get the proportions of a 'freshened' tank identical to that of a freshly mixed tank.

On saving money, could you reduce your tank sizes to use less mix per dump?

that would just bring everything your talking about closer,

you didnt answer my previous message though about ratios

I'm happy with my way and i dont think i would be any better off doing it your way, not noticeably anyway