skunkwreck
Well-Known Member
Really ? It would still seem like a bx3 unless maybe you did some crossing like say a Chem #4 x Chem d bx2 ....shyt I don't know I'm just sitting here blazing trying to think lol
bodhi seeds
- Thread starter dankydonky
- Start date
akhiymjames
Well-Known Member
See that's what I don't understand in breeding if you cross f2 male with f1 females what is it? I have seen this done with Exotic Genetics Excotic Fighter. Its a f1 female x f2 male of Starfighter. I think they are call incross or something I don't know lol. Somebody with better breeding knowledge can tell us
Yea Tres Dawg = Chem d x Chem d x Chem d x Afhani. The first cross to Afghani is to find the dad to bx it back to. Then the first bx is Double Dawg then bx2 is Tres Dawg. Tres Dawg = Chem d x Double Dawg. Double Dawg just isn't called Chem d bx lol
skunkwreck
Well-Known Member
Gotcha bro...the Double Dawg part threw me...I took the DD as a bx2 .
akhiymjames
Well-Known Member
That's why I said the name can fool you
if you look in the Chucker Paradise thread I posted a link of someone showing their Tres Dawg male. OMG a beast I'd let him dust every female I have lol
calicat
Well-Known Member
Well sista UCG from all your guyz input and descriptions of the phenotypes and pictures you were showing in SSDD. My opinion was leaning to the genetic expression of the father side. The common census was that the environments you guyz were creating were sound without too many fluctuations but yet the expressions were being hypersensitive as a result yall were noticing some nanners or even full blown herms.
Lets throw in Mother's Milk because that was thrown out there too. Now the pictures I have seen from your guyz grows suggest it was a strong Tres Dawg expression and the way yall were describing the overall experience.
This is where it can get really complex though. You have to really consider the mother cut as well. Lets go back to SSDD. Original Bubba Kush no one really knows the genetics on it. People that have done small or mass s'1s from that strain have come up with some crazy expressions ..i.e Suge Nite Pure Kush, Orgnkid's sative purple expression, and Nspecta's Bomb Threat to name just a few. Then you have DJ Shorts Blue Moonshine which has its inherent flaws but gotta give it to him to try to build lines from quite finicky landraces to begin with particularly those coming from Thailand.
If that portion of the story is entirely true with no ifs ands or buts then yes you are absolutely correct UCG.
You have the best answer for that UCG because you are experiencing the SSDD line in your unique garden. My suggestion if you have the time would be to keep your F1 mother and thoroughly go through your F2 with skilled scrutiny before attempting any backcrosses or even going further down the filial generation. Your passion with SSDD will most likely result in a really unique gem that no one has ever seen in that line. The initial diversity is in your bottleneck filial generation 2. The further you go the more predictable your outcomes will be but there is a price to pay for that predictability. If you ever have watched an anime series called Full Metal Alchemist there is a saying that really sticks with you that revolves around the laws of nature. They call it equivalent exchange ( it is not an actual law of alchemy ). " In order to obtain or create something, something of equal value must be lost or destroyed." Apply that with what you are doing in your breeding practices.
skunkwreck
Well-Known Member
Wow !
undercovergrow
Well-Known Member
ditto
natro.hydro
Well-Known Member
Lol ak you are a trip. I swaer we got the same brain or some shit cus I was contenplating the very same thing. Almost made a thread about it but figured I should just do some more reading on breeding since my knowledge on that is pretty basic. But ya what is it called when you take the desirable male from and f2 and hit it back to the f1? Bx just seems to simple/confusing of a label so I would have to agree with your ibl statement.
natro.hydro
Well-Known Member
I believe the way it works for this is. You select your m+f f1's to then make f2's, then you select a m+f from you f2 seeds to make f3s otherwise you are doing what I believe @akhiymjames referred to woth the ibl.
Please someone correct me if I am wrong because at this point my knowledge of breeding is strictly book learning lol
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D_Urbmon
Well-Known Member
Yeah all that confuses me too.
Plus what if the breeder had already done some kind of f2 to f1 pollination for the seeds released. Then we pop a pack and make what we think is f2's. Then what's it called?
What's a true f1 hyrbird anyways? Does it have to be from completely different genetic stock or simply to cross 2 different varieites and the offspring is always f1?
Plus what if the breeder had already done some kind of f2 to f1 pollination for the seeds released. Then we pop a pack and make what we think is f2's. Then what's it called?
What's a true f1 hyrbird anyways? Does it have to be from completely different genetic stock or simply to cross 2 different varieites and the offspring is always f1?
torontoke
Well-Known Member
Its a fairly long read but i found this answered alot of my questions.
What is the Difference between an F1 and a Hybrid?
What really is an F1 cross?
Well defining the terms P1, F1, F2, homozygous, and heterogygous can be a simple task, however, applying them to applied genetics can often create confusion. Depending on your point of reference, a plant could be described as any of these terms. For our specific field of interest it's important to further define these terms to reduce confusion and protect the consumers. First I'll provide the classic scientific definition of these and other related terms and then I'll dive into each term into detail.
Heterzygous - a condition when two genes for a trait are not the same on each member of a pair of homologous chromosomes; individuals heterozygous for a trait are indicated by an "Aa" or "aA" notation and are not true breeding for that trait.(Clarke)
Homozygous - the condition existing when the genes for a trait are the same on both chromosomes of a homologous pair; individuals homozygous for a trait are indicated by "AA" or "aa" and are true breeding for that trait. (Clarke)
- Now the heterozygous and homozygous terms can be applied to one trait or a group of traits within an individual or a group of individuals. Depending on your point of reference, an individual or group can be
considered both homozygous or heterozygous. For instance, say you have two individuals that are both short (S) and have webbed leaves (W) and have the following genotypes.
#1 = SSWW
#2 = SSWw
They are both homozygous for the short trait but only individual #1 is homozygous for the webbed leaf trait. Individual #2 is heterozygous for the webbed leaf trait and would be considered a heterozygous individual. As a goup, they would be considered heterozygous in general by some and homozygous by others. It would depend on your point of reference and the overall importance you place on the webbed leaf trait. Most would consider it to be heterozygous.
For example, the blueberry cannabis strain is considered a true breeding homozygous seed line because as a whole the many offspring have a similar look and produce a similar product. However there are often subtle differences between the plants of characters such as stem colour and potency. When taking a close look at blueberry, you will find heterozygous traits, but because of the whole overall look, we still generally consider them homozygous for the purpose of breeding programs. Using dogs is another way to explain this, take a dobie for example, you cant tell the difference between dobies, but you can tell a dobie from another breed. Ya follow?
Hybrid - An individual produced by crossing two parents of different genotypes. Clarke says that a hybrid is a heterozygous individual resulting from crossing two seperate strains.
- For the purpose of seedbanks, a hybrid is in general, a cross between any two unrelated seedlines. ANY HYBRID IS heterozygous and NOT TRUE BREEDING.
F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seedlines in the creation of a hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the P1 parent stock used.
F2 hybrid - is the offspring of a cross between two F1 plants (Clarke). What Clarke and other sources don't make clear is do the two F1's need to be from the same parents? By convention they don't. As well, german geneticists often describe a backcross of an F1 back to a P1 parent as a F2 cross.
- OK lets say we take blueberry and cross it with romulan (both relatively true breeding of their unique traits) to create the F1 hybrid romberry. Now lets cross the F1 romberry with a NL/Haze F1 hybrid. (Ed.note:The textbooks consider this a 'double cross'.)
Some could say this is a F1 cross of romberry and NL/Haze. Others could argue that it is a F2 cross of two F1 hybrids. Gets confusing doesn't it? Now lets cross this Romberry/NL/Haze(RNH) with a Skunk#1/NL#5 F1 hybrid to create RNHSN. Now some would argue that RNHSN is an F1 hybrid between RNH and SK/NL seedlines. Others would call it an F2.
- So what does this mean to the consumer? It means that a seed bank can call a cross whatever it wants until the industry adopts some standards. This is what this article will attempt to initiate. Clarke eludes to
standardising these definitions but never really gets around to it. Fortunately other plant breeding communities have (Colangelli, Grossnickle&Russell, Watts, &Wright) and adopting their standards
makes the most sense and offers the best protection to the seedbank consumer.
Watts defines an F1 as the heterozygous offspring between two homozygous but unrelated seedlines. This makes sense and gives the F1 generation a unique combination of traits; uniform phenotype but not true breeding. This is important in the plant breeding world. This means that when a customer buys F1 seeds that they should expect uniform results. It also means that the breeder's work is protected from being duplicated by any other means than using the original P1 (true breeding parents). [There are
exceptions to this by using techniques such as repeated backcrosses (cubing the clone).
F2 crosses are the offspring of crossing two F1 hybrids. This means that they will not be uniform nor will they breed true. However, F3, F4, F5, etc will also share these characteristics, so to simplify terminology for the seedbanks and seedbank merchants, they can all be classified as F2 seeds in general.
What does this mean for the preceeding example? Well, the blueberry, romulan, skunk#1, NL#5, and haze were all P1 true breeding seedlines or strains (another term that needs clarification). Romberry, NL/Haze, and SK/NL were all F1 hybrids. Both the Romberry/NL/Haze and the RNHSN would be F2s. Within each group the consumer can know what to expect for the price they are paying.
Few cannabis seedbanks (if any) and their breeders are following these definitions and are subsequently creating confusion within the cannabis seedbuying community. This is a change that needs to happen.
Note: this is a rough draft to be published to the internet. Hopefully in time it or something similar will be used to help establish an industry standard. Any comments and critism is welcome to aid in the production of the final draft. Small steps like this can only benefit the cannabis community over the long haul.
What is the Difference between an F1 and a Hybrid?
What really is an F1 cross?
Well defining the terms P1, F1, F2, homozygous, and heterogygous can be a simple task, however, applying them to applied genetics can often create confusion. Depending on your point of reference, a plant could be described as any of these terms. For our specific field of interest it's important to further define these terms to reduce confusion and protect the consumers. First I'll provide the classic scientific definition of these and other related terms and then I'll dive into each term into detail.
Heterzygous - a condition when two genes for a trait are not the same on each member of a pair of homologous chromosomes; individuals heterozygous for a trait are indicated by an "Aa" or "aA" notation and are not true breeding for that trait.(Clarke)
Homozygous - the condition existing when the genes for a trait are the same on both chromosomes of a homologous pair; individuals homozygous for a trait are indicated by "AA" or "aa" and are true breeding for that trait. (Clarke)
- Now the heterozygous and homozygous terms can be applied to one trait or a group of traits within an individual or a group of individuals. Depending on your point of reference, an individual or group can be
considered both homozygous or heterozygous. For instance, say you have two individuals that are both short (S) and have webbed leaves (W) and have the following genotypes.
#1 = SSWW
#2 = SSWw
They are both homozygous for the short trait but only individual #1 is homozygous for the webbed leaf trait. Individual #2 is heterozygous for the webbed leaf trait and would be considered a heterozygous individual. As a goup, they would be considered heterozygous in general by some and homozygous by others. It would depend on your point of reference and the overall importance you place on the webbed leaf trait. Most would consider it to be heterozygous.
For example, the blueberry cannabis strain is considered a true breeding homozygous seed line because as a whole the many offspring have a similar look and produce a similar product. However there are often subtle differences between the plants of characters such as stem colour and potency. When taking a close look at blueberry, you will find heterozygous traits, but because of the whole overall look, we still generally consider them homozygous for the purpose of breeding programs. Using dogs is another way to explain this, take a dobie for example, you cant tell the difference between dobies, but you can tell a dobie from another breed. Ya follow?
Hybrid - An individual produced by crossing two parents of different genotypes. Clarke says that a hybrid is a heterozygous individual resulting from crossing two seperate strains.
- For the purpose of seedbanks, a hybrid is in general, a cross between any two unrelated seedlines. ANY HYBRID IS heterozygous and NOT TRUE BREEDING.
F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seedlines in the creation of a hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the P1 parent stock used.
F2 hybrid - is the offspring of a cross between two F1 plants (Clarke). What Clarke and other sources don't make clear is do the two F1's need to be from the same parents? By convention they don't. As well, german geneticists often describe a backcross of an F1 back to a P1 parent as a F2 cross.
- OK lets say we take blueberry and cross it with romulan (both relatively true breeding of their unique traits) to create the F1 hybrid romberry. Now lets cross the F1 romberry with a NL/Haze F1 hybrid. (Ed.note:The textbooks consider this a 'double cross'.)
Some could say this is a F1 cross of romberry and NL/Haze. Others could argue that it is a F2 cross of two F1 hybrids. Gets confusing doesn't it? Now lets cross this Romberry/NL/Haze(RNH) with a Skunk#1/NL#5 F1 hybrid to create RNHSN. Now some would argue that RNHSN is an F1 hybrid between RNH and SK/NL seedlines. Others would call it an F2.
- So what does this mean to the consumer? It means that a seed bank can call a cross whatever it wants until the industry adopts some standards. This is what this article will attempt to initiate. Clarke eludes to
standardising these definitions but never really gets around to it. Fortunately other plant breeding communities have (Colangelli, Grossnickle&Russell, Watts, &Wright) and adopting their standards
makes the most sense and offers the best protection to the seedbank consumer.
Watts defines an F1 as the heterozygous offspring between two homozygous but unrelated seedlines. This makes sense and gives the F1 generation a unique combination of traits; uniform phenotype but not true breeding. This is important in the plant breeding world. This means that when a customer buys F1 seeds that they should expect uniform results. It also means that the breeder's work is protected from being duplicated by any other means than using the original P1 (true breeding parents). [There are
exceptions to this by using techniques such as repeated backcrosses (cubing the clone).
F2 crosses are the offspring of crossing two F1 hybrids. This means that they will not be uniform nor will they breed true. However, F3, F4, F5, etc will also share these characteristics, so to simplify terminology for the seedbanks and seedbank merchants, they can all be classified as F2 seeds in general.
What does this mean for the preceeding example? Well, the blueberry, romulan, skunk#1, NL#5, and haze were all P1 true breeding seedlines or strains (another term that needs clarification). Romberry, NL/Haze, and SK/NL were all F1 hybrids. Both the Romberry/NL/Haze and the RNHSN would be F2s. Within each group the consumer can know what to expect for the price they are paying.
Few cannabis seedbanks (if any) and their breeders are following these definitions and are subsequently creating confusion within the cannabis seedbuying community. This is a change that needs to happen.
Note: this is a rough draft to be published to the internet. Hopefully in time it or something similar will be used to help establish an industry standard. Any comments and critism is welcome to aid in the production of the final draft. Small steps like this can only benefit the cannabis community over the long haul.
D_Urbmon
Well-Known Member
Great post torontoke! I gotta admit though the letter combinations used for chromosomes kind of confuse me. It's been a long time since highschool Biology. I should try to find a Biology text book from the 2nd hand stores next time I go.
..... or I could just use Google hahahahaha
..... or I could just use Google hahahahaha
Al Yamoni
Well-Known Member
Hey bodhi peeps, I'd ask this in a more generalized or appropriate thread but frankly most of the ppl on riu are doinks. Almost everyone that keeps me coming back here most likely checks in on this thread so here's the deal.. Now that I'm back in action id really like to source an OGKB cookies cut. It might be laughable, but if I don't try then fuck me right? Appreciate any info ladies and gentlemen. Have a great weekend
Al Yamoni
Well-Known Member
What she said
Mr.Head
Well-Known Member
I know there's folks around here with it Al. There's also a good Clone Only thread on here with great folks in it, a few of them hold it I am sure they could at least point you in the direction of who to ask.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/clone-only-strains.845528/page-202
hayrolld
Well-Known Member
I'm not in a legal state, so I can't help with a cut. Dungeon Vault has a fire looking ogkb cross called Grandpas Breath (ogkb X GDP/Tahoe) that you can get at thedankteam .com Check out dungeon vault genetics on instagram for pics, it looks like a killer strain.
Al Yamoni
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys, I'm going to check out both right now. Bodhi aside, this thread really is the tits.
D_Urbmon
Well-Known Member
I share the same sentiments. I rarely post outside of the seed section, just a couple in the hash section and that's it. This forum is THE MOST HOSTILE and trollish forum environment I have ever witnessed, and I've been using forums for over a decade.