2Hearts
Well-Known Member
Id go hard water ferts based on ph and the fact your water is slightly hard, even im keen to try some now and see if it helps ph. If were lucky ill see if my hydro store has some and if they sell much locally.
Hard or Soft Water?
- Thread starter ItsJustMe84
- Start date
2Hearts
Well-Known Member
I ripped this from Cannas web site, it explains tds/ec and water hardness better than i can and shows how you can have soft water with high ec or hard water with low ec. Monovalent just mwans the ion has 1 charge not two as in Ca2.
TDS, EC and water hardness
Bad water is simply bad – because it contains high levels of salt or other undesirable chemicals, for example. It can be found anywhere especially in industrial areas, regions where there is intense agricultural activity, or close to bodies of salt water. This has no bearing on whether it is hard or soft.
It’s important not to confuse ion
or salt concentration with the hardness or softness of water. Hardness is a function of multivalent ions such as Ca2+ and Mg2+, not monovalent ions like Na+ or Cl+. Monovalent ions also show up in the total dissolved solids (TDS) of a solution, so it is possible to have a TDS of 450 mg/L (1 ppm = 1 mg/L), derived from adding table salt to distilled water, but this water can still be soft.
There is no direct correlation between TDS or electrical conductivity (EC) and water hardness. You can only be sure that the water is hard if you can know that all the electrical conductivity derives exclusively from Ca, Mg or other multivalent metallic ions. For example, sugar solution will conduct electricity, but is not (necessarily) hard. Water softeners work by replacing the problem ions − calcium and magnesium − with sodium ions. The EC stays the same or increases but the water goes from hard to soft; not a good thing for plants.
articles-hardwatersoftwater_text_1
Figure 1: The EC value doesn't always tell everything about the quality of your water. Sometimes hard water with an EC of 0.5 could still be okay, while different water with the same EC could be bad or extremely bad for your plants, because it contains different salts and chemicals
For us, the big question is how all this affects plant nutrition. One of the biggest effects for growing systems that use hard water is the potential for a build-up of calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate, which are insoluble. The formation of these deposits is an endothermic reaction, meaning that the process gets faster as heat is supplied to the solution. During the process of pumping water from a reservoir, through a pump, through smaller pipes, onto a table top and through a root system, the water will become warmer, and this will cause the deposits to form naturally and persistently.
TDS, EC and water hardness
Bad water is simply bad – because it contains high levels of salt or other undesirable chemicals, for example. It can be found anywhere especially in industrial areas, regions where there is intense agricultural activity, or close to bodies of salt water. This has no bearing on whether it is hard or soft.
It’s important not to confuse ion
or salt concentration with the hardness or softness of water. Hardness is a function of multivalent ions such as Ca2+ and Mg2+, not monovalent ions like Na+ or Cl+. Monovalent ions also show up in the total dissolved solids (TDS) of a solution, so it is possible to have a TDS of 450 mg/L (1 ppm = 1 mg/L), derived from adding table salt to distilled water, but this water can still be soft.
There is no direct correlation between TDS or electrical conductivity (EC) and water hardness. You can only be sure that the water is hard if you can know that all the electrical conductivity derives exclusively from Ca, Mg or other multivalent metallic ions. For example, sugar solution will conduct electricity, but is not (necessarily) hard. Water softeners work by replacing the problem ions − calcium and magnesium − with sodium ions. The EC stays the same or increases but the water goes from hard to soft; not a good thing for plants.
articles-hardwatersoftwater_text_1
Figure 1: The EC value doesn't always tell everything about the quality of your water. Sometimes hard water with an EC of 0.5 could still be okay, while different water with the same EC could be bad or extremely bad for your plants, because it contains different salts and chemicals
For us, the big question is how all this affects plant nutrition. One of the biggest effects for growing systems that use hard water is the potential for a build-up of calcium carbonate or magnesium carbonate, which are insoluble. The formation of these deposits is an endothermic reaction, meaning that the process gets faster as heat is supplied to the solution. During the process of pumping water from a reservoir, through a pump, through smaller pipes, onto a table top and through a root system, the water will become warmer, and this will cause the deposits to form naturally and persistently.
ItsJustMe84
Well-Known Member
Yes ive read this, it also says if the ppms are lower than 150, cal mag should be added up until 150ppm.
I think im just going to stick with canna as a universal nute and just add the cal mag as and when i need it.. im quiet confident that my waters good, it just has a high ph which is easily adjustable, i put just a drop of vinegar into 2 litres of water and it brought the ph down to 5.1.
So my plan is to adjust my ppm of around 120, to 150 using cal mag then add enough nutes to the reccomended ec, and from then just adjust the ph with ph down and up..
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MrStickyScissors
Well-Known Member
i prefer mounttain dew color. and i love the drops fuck the pens they get wacky
2Hearts
Well-Known Member
All my ferts are universal so im eager to try some hard water versions and im almost at my hydro shop once i finish in the jobcentre (unemployed again!).
Im eager to see if they stabalise my ph as it always rises back up to 7 over time. The scale says were both have slightly hard water so i guess we can go either way. The ph rising in my water put me of buying more hydro gear as the same would happen in my res, possibly hard water ferts are the solution.
Im eager to see if they stabalise my ph as it always rises back up to 7 over time. The scale says were both have slightly hard water so i guess we can go either way. The ph rising in my water put me of buying more hydro gear as the same would happen in my res, possibly hard water ferts are the solution.
Solar Flowered
Active Member
Mountain Dew color works get also! Yep, too much can go wrong with those pens. Since I only pH my water for cloning with cubes.. the drops work great.
2Hearts
Well-Known Member
Guess what?
My hydro shop said they dont stock any hard water ferts as were in a soft water area!
I told her that at 36ppm calcium carbonate technically its classed as mildly hard....
...She said hard water ferts are more aimed at ppm level of 400/500 and thats more places like holland.
She then said to try coco and its more forgiving to ph because you water every day with fresh ph.
Anyway i didnt want to argue as her daughters really hot and ive left with some root it plugs instead just to keep her sweet
My hydro shop said they dont stock any hard water ferts as were in a soft water area!
I told her that at 36ppm calcium carbonate technically its classed as mildly hard....
...She said hard water ferts are more aimed at ppm level of 400/500 and thats more places like holland.
She then said to try coco and its more forgiving to ph because you water every day with fresh ph.
Anyway i didnt want to argue as her daughters really hot and ive left with some root it plugs instead just to keep her sweet
ItsJustMe84
Well-Known Member
Ive just spoken to my hydro shop and they said the same that my waters soft, and i should only use softwater products in coco, i explained my water company saying it was slightly hard and he said the same, our version of hard is not actually hard when you compare it to places like london,Guess what?
My hydro shop said they dont stock any hard water ferts as were in a soft water area!
I told her that at 36ppm calcium carbonate technically its classed as mildly hard....
...She said hard water ferts are more aimed at ppm level of 400/500 and thats more places like holland.
She then said to try coco and its more forgiving to ph because you water every day with fresh ph.
Anyway i didnt want to argue as her daughters really hot and ive left with some root it plugs instead just to keep her sweet
It just goes to show though, ive spoken to vitalink themselves and even they adviced hard but i trust my local hydroponics as they are all from my city, i defo think canna's the way foward lol
ItsJustMe84
Well-Known Member
If your using canna, canna coco coir, with cal mag is supposed to work wonders in soft water... what ever i did the first time around which yielded me 54oz of 9 plants was grown in coco coir, but i never testedd the ph, never tested ppms i literally followed the instructions and burnt my leaves but still produced some big juicy budsGuess what?
My hydro shop said they dont stock any hard water ferts as were in a soft water area!
I told her that at 36ppm calcium carbonate technically its classed as mildly hard....
...She said hard water ferts are more aimed at ppm level of 400/500 and thats more places like holland.
She then said to try coco and its more forgiving to ph because you water every day with fresh ph.
Anyway i didnt want to argue as her daughters really hot and ive left with some root it plugs instead just to keep her sweet
2Hearts
Well-Known Member
i trust what my hydro shop says and am beginning to see why coco is so much easier in our areas plus what the hydro shop is mainly selling.
She pushed me onto the root it cubes as they are what people round here use to transplant into coco and to avoid ph problems.
Hmm i have rockwool, promix and now root it cubes going in my veg area now!
2Hearts
Well-Known Member
My ferts have enough calmag not to need extra although i do have various bottles of sensi cal/mag they never made a difference.
ItsJustMe84
Well-Known Member
Yes that may change when you use coco, the guy at the hydro shop says that coco requires more cal mag than soil, especially in soft water, and supposadly canna a and b lack in cal mag too especially if your using soft water, ive read quite alot about coco, if your gonna grow in it ill trust you'll read up on it because it sounds like its quiet alot different to growing in soil, but everyone were i live swears by it.
2Hearts
Well-Known Member
Have tried it here and there just wasnt keen on it. Surely coco specific soft water nutes should mean theres enough calcium already.
Canna say there A+B is low in calcium till you hit a certain ec then it has enough i.e. Just need it for germination and early veg whilst ppm/ec is low. Its what i read and been told.
Mr.Head
Well-Known Member
I told you your water wasn't hard on the first or second page and you argued with me. Now we're on the 7th page and you have finally came the conclusion that your water isn't hard because your hydrostore person told you so.
Keep taking advice from this guy @ItsJustMe84 . I'm sure it won't negatively effect your garden in the long run.
The idea that UK ground water is some how "special" is laughable.
Keep taking advice from this guy @ItsJustMe84 . I'm sure it won't negatively effect your garden in the long run.
The idea that UK ground water is some how "special" is laughable.
ItsJustMe84
Well-Known Member
I spoke to a few hydro shops who all told me to go hw nutes due to my high ph and it is a tricky one because soft water usually has a lower P.H i think thats what caused so much confusion at the hydro shops.
As for taking advice i appreciate all the advice you guys give me but i would never act on advice i just ask for advice so i can get a few different opinions but when it comes to starting in the next couple of weeks it will be all down to what i want to do, until now ive done ok without all the ph testing etc etc, so its all a learning curve, but you guys shouldnt argue, it seems to be a big thing between brits and Americans not getting along but ive always got on fine with yanks, i dont really see much of a difference between us tbh, thats probably why we dont get on sometimes, they do say simalir personalitys clash.
ItsJustMe84
Well-Known Member
Ive also been on here a while so i know to take advice with a pinch of salt, the first grow i did i had a grower called uncle ben telling me to throw my full crop away and start again as they would only die in a couple weeks,i actually considered it but then i was like fuck that and i ended up doing good!!
I dont care how experienced a grower is they cant guide someone on a garden they cant see even with pictures, even without all the ph and ec testing i learned you have to find your own path.. im just a worrier,.hence the million questions lol
Mr.Head
Well-Known Member
I'm Canadian, have absolutely no problem with the vast majority of Uk'ers on here. I apologize for my generalization of the UK folks. It's wrong and uncalled for.
However I take great offense to someone spreading bad advice. Even more so when the user spreading the bad advice makes a thread trying to get me banned because he didn't like me telling him facts when he's copy and pasting things he doesn't fully understand.
As for being a worrier everyone is when they are starting out, I'd argue if you aren't worrying about your plants you're not going to be a good grower in the long run. Too much worry can be an issue
As I am sure you've experienced I'm still there, I've only been doing this for a few years, made and continue to make more then my fair share of mistakes. Live and learn.
As for uncleben he's an expert, if the results aren't top notch he's not interested. Glad you finished them out though you learn a lot more that way. He's got a lot of great principles to follow even though I don't follow his synthetic feeding principles.
However I take great offense to someone spreading bad advice. Even more so when the user spreading the bad advice makes a thread trying to get me banned because he didn't like me telling him facts when he's copy and pasting things he doesn't fully understand.
As for being a worrier everyone is when they are starting out, I'd argue if you aren't worrying about your plants you're not going to be a good grower in the long run. Too much worry can be an issue
As I am sure you've experienced I'm still there, I've only been doing this for a few years, made and continue to make more then my fair share of mistakes. Live and learn.As for uncleben he's an expert, if the results aren't top notch he's not interested. Glad you finished them out though you learn a lot more that way. He's got a lot of great principles to follow even though I don't follow his synthetic feeding principles.
This is your last time im asking you to stop.I'm Canadian, have absolutely no problem with the vast majority of Uk'ers on here. I apologize for my generalization of the UK folks. It's wrong and uncalled for.
However I take great offense to someone spreading bad advice. Even more so when the user spreading the bad advice makes a thread trying to get me banned because he didn't like me telling him facts when he's copy and pasting things he doesn't fully understand.
As for being a worrier everyone is when they are starting out, I'd argue if you aren't worrying about your plants you're not going to be a good grower in the long run. Too much worry can be an issue
all youre constantly doing is throwing more gasoline on the fire to spark up an argument its unneeded .
just because you think hes giving bad advice doesnt mean you can personally attack him and harass him. everyone is allowed equally on the forum board and if youve got such a knot in your panties about it that you cannot act like an adult you need to place him on ignore.
Drop it, what are not understanding about STOP.
ItsJustMe84
Well-Known Member
Like i say im no expert i can only go on what alot of ppl seem think soft water lacks in cal mag and alot of people on the forums seem to always advise to have a bottle of cal mag or epsom salts at hand if your using canna nutes in canna coco coir especially in soft water!! You may not need it but the advice is there should you ever get a deficiany
Its cool man, ive genralized and stereotyped ppl from other countrys in moments of frustration plenty of times, im sure we all have.I'm Canadian, have absolutely no problem with the vast majority of Uk'ers on here. I apologize for my generalization of the UK folks. It's wrong and uncalled for.
However I take great offense to someone spreading bad advice. Even more so when the user spreading the bad advice makes a thread trying to get me banned because he didn't like me telling him facts when he's copy and pasting things he doesn't fully understand.
As for being a worrier everyone is when they are starting out, I'd argue if you aren't worrying about your plants you're not going to be a good grower in the long run. Too much worry can be an issue
As for uncleben he's an expert, if the results aren't top notch he's not interested. Glad you finished them out though you learn a lot more that way. He's got a lot of great principles to follow even though I don't follow his synthetic feeding principles.
Best thing to do is lets all forget about the argument nobody needs to get banned, like i said sound advice or not, i would never go off what someone on here tells me unless im was 100% certain, as for the worry,.yh i am stress head at times but im.quiet confident im learning slowly but surely, im not a very accademic type of guy, i couldnt read til i was about 19, so what seem easy for some i actually struggle with which doesnt help my worrying because im always wondering if im fully understanding or misunderstanding what im reading. Seems with growing you have to do alot of reading.
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