Ebb and grow buckets vs flood table

[bigvajoo]

Okay so here goes. I'll be working on my 10th 11th or 12th grow after my current crop is done and clones are finished with veg. My current flowering setup is a 6x6x6 tent, 1000w switchable ballast with an air cooled hood. Passive intake with a 350cfm drawing thru a 24" can filter then exhausting thru the hood and out the tent. Temps and RH are not an issue at all. 25 gallon res below a 4 plant flood table and 4'x4' scrog screen. I normally grow out 4 plants in 2gal smart pots and average 14-16oz per harvest from not so high yielding strains.

I've read posts that indicate growers are yielding 2x what i get using the same size bulb and tent. I can do better and am determined to figure out how.

My current flood table setup and tent are the reason for the scrog, limited clearance between light and tops. Right now, my light sits about 30" from the screen. First questions, is my footprint being limited by the 30" clearance? Would I get better footprint if I had more clearance?

Since I can't raise the top of the tent, my only option is to go lower with the plants. I like the 4x4 screen; gives me room to work in the tent. Going with larger screen limits my access to too all parts of each plant.

Lowering the table means I have to find a shorter res, but that's tough. I've been looking at ebb and grow bucket type systems as a solution and wanted some thoughts regarding experience with that system compared to flood tables.

A few hundred bucks on a new system isn't an issue as long as its worth it.

Also, with the 1000w light and increased head room and possibly switching to ebb and grow, should I continue to scrog or just " let them go?" With some supercropping or lst to spread the canopy. Again, increased yield is my main goal here.

Also, what would be optimum distance between light and flowers to give me the best coverage with best penetration? Everyone always says, the closer the better with air cooled hoods...OK, so at 12" I know damn well my footprint is way too small for what this light is capable of...

I'm ditching one of my strains for a higher yielding one, but still not the greatest. I have no desire to switch to something like Big Bud and sacrifice the quality I have now for significantly more weight, but I know I can do better with the strains I have if the setup is right.


Thoughts?
Thanks

 

[DirtyMcCurdy]

I found that 1000 watt lights are not that ideal for tents. It might work better with the buckets but idk, I have no experience with those. I've found that using more, lesser wattage, lights tends to work better. Say like 2-3 400 watters or 4 250's. It allows for much better light distribution imo. I bought a 1000 watt bulb/ballast and don't even use it because of the issues you mention-head room and it being too close to the plants. I use 2 400 watters over 3x3 flood tables. Sometimes scrog, sometimes not. Depends on how big I let them get before moving them to the table.

 

[tallen]

What medium and how often are you flooding? How long do you veg and do you fill your screen? If your ending up with a full screen you should be getting at least double what you are. Also do you veg in place or do you put them under the screen at flip? If your not vegging under the screen then 4 plants will have a really hard time filling the screen properly and I'd say that's part of the issue. To start, I'd go with 9 plants in that space (and maybe even go with a bigger screen, say a 5x5)

As far as tray vs buckets I can't help much. I run trays and scrog currently, but plan on adding some buckets myself to try a vertical scrog very soonly.

 

[bigvajoo]

I found that 1000 watt lights are not that ideal for tents. It might work better with the buckets but idk, I have no experience with those. I've found that using more, lesser wattage, lights tends to work better. Say like 2-3 400 watters or 4 250's. It allows for much better light distribution imo. I bought a 1000 watt bulb/ballast and don't even use it because of the issues you mention-head room and it being too close to the plants. I use 2 400 watters over 3x3 flood tables. Sometimes scrog, sometimes not. Depends on how big I let them get before moving them to the table.

Haven't really thought about using two smaller lights. Easily Do-able in my setup.

 

[bigvajoo]

What medium and how often are you flooding? How long do you veg and do you fill your screen? If your ending up with a full screen you should be getting at least double what you are. Also do you veg in place or do you put them under the screen at flip? If your not vegging under the screen then 4 plants will have a really hard time filling the screen properly and I'd say that's part of the issue. To start, I'd go with 9 plants in that space (and maybe even go with a bigger screen, say a 5x5)

As far as tray vs buckets I can't help much. I run trays and scrog currently, but plan on adding some buckets myself to try a vertical scrog very soonly.

4" rw cubes in hydroton filled smart pots. Flooding 4x during lights on. Never any wilting indicating under watering, or drooping indicating over watering. Plants always look healthy and happy.

The screen is pretty much full, 95% or more. I take clones about 3weeks into flower. Veg the clones under a 400w mh in the 4" cubes. Supercrop and lst the clones. Doing this with the monster cropping I get some serious branching. They go into the flower tent when the current crop is cut and dried, approx 8 weeks. This is also when I pot them up. They veg for a week or so under the net that get flipped.

I only taken two clones from each flowering plant to minimize stress. When stretch is finished, I lollipop... At about 4 weeks.

They get as much nutes(Gh flora)as they can handle; approx 1300 ppm. Any higher and I get burned tips.

Still, the best I've ever done is 16oz. Or .44g/watt. I know the potential is there to do better.

The strains aren't the highest yielding, RQ OG and Nirvana WW. I'm actually shit canning the WW after this crop and replacing with Sour Kush which I've read has slightly higher yields.

My table can handle 6 plants in 3gallon pots. I'm moving up to 3gallon to provide for larger root mass than the 2's. The E&G buckets would allow for more plants in the same available space. Building a bigger table is an option. But that would require a much larger and taller res, limiting my clearance to light even more. Unfortunately, I need the tent for odor and temp control.

Guess I could veg under the screen longer but then my concern is head room between light and flower tops with the taller Bud sites that will result.

Do properly trained bushes yield more than scrog in a confined space like my tent?
Thanks

 

[tallen]

It sounds like your doing it right, I'm not sure what to tell you. I would go with bigger pots and also repot earlier to make sure roots have time to grow to their full potential (more roots = more fruits).

Thinking about only 30" between screen and light I'm thinking you may be better off in buckets so that you can let the plants grow above the screen more. When I put mine under the screen it mostly fills it, I just use the screen to spread the plants out nicley, fill in any bare spots as they stretch but mainly just let them grow UP. Usually ending up a foot or so above the screen. Come to think of it whenever I've put them in too early and spent much time spreading them out instead of letting them grow up I've gotten shitty yeilds. Hope that helps.

"Do properly trained bushes yield more than scrog in a confined space like my tent?" My yields went up when I started scrogging but YMMV

 

[bigvajoo]

It sounds like your doing it right, I'm not sure what to tell you. I would go with bigger pots and also repot earlier to make sure roots have time to grow to their full potential (more roots = more fruits).

Thinking about only 30" between screen and light I'm thinking you may be better off in buckets so that you can let the plants grow above the screen more. When I put mine under the screen it mostly fills it, I just use the screen to spread the plants out nicley, fill in any bare spots as they stretch but mainly just let them grow UP. Usually ending up a foot or so above the screen. Come to think of it whenever I've put them in too early and spent much time spreading them out instead of letting them grow up I've gotten shitty yeilds. Hope that helps.

"Do properly trained bushes yield more than scrog in a confined space like my tent?" My yields went up when I started scrogging but YMMV

Not enough veg time and a late repot is probably my issue.. Most of my time in scrog is spent spreading the plans out and I end up with 3-6" buds just above the screen. Letting them veg a bit longer and earlier repot would likely help. With the 30" clearance, its really not an option in my setup at the moment. Buckets would give me almost 2x the clearance...bucket system it is....I think.

Thanks for the help man

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Haven't really thought about using two smaller lights. Easily Do-able in my setup.

1k is better for larger rooms not a tent, I'd bet money that you have a hotspot and your plants arent gettting a even spread of light. Ive done the same thing before.. I kinda disagree with a 1kw run close to the canopy, I'm surprised you haven't had bleaching issues. Its a waste of light to run over 50 watts per square foot.

Anyways, if you are using a digital ballast consider using a splitter and run 600's, I have moved away from SCROG to SOG, but at the expense of high plant counts. It will keep your canopy low, and you wont have to do so much training, and you can run a perpetual harvest now. A bunch of nice little colas.

 

[bigvajoo]

1k is better for larger rooms not a tent, I'd bet money that you have a hotspot and your plants arent gettting a even spread of light. Ive done the same thing before.. I kinda disagree with a 1kw run close to the canopy, I'm surprised you haven't had bleaching issues. Its a waste of light to run over 50 watts per square foot.

Anyways, if you are using a digital ballast consider using a splitter and run 600's, I have moved away from SCROG to SOG, but at the expense of high plant counts. It will keep your canopy low, and you wont have to do so much training, and you can run a perpetual harvest now. A bunch of nice little colas.

Have yet to see any bleaching occur. With the 50w/ft2, I'm just over that. My screen area is actually 18ft2. I'm over the 50ww, but not by much so not too much waste.

I do run a digit ballast but am not familiar with the splitter you mentioned. It splits the 1kW output from that ballast so I can run two lights from the same ballast??

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Have yet to see any bleaching occur. With the 50w/ft2, I'm just over that. My screen area is actually 18ft2. I'm over the 50ww, but not by much so not too much waste.

I do run a digit ballast but am not familiar with the splitter you mentioned. It splits the 1kW output from that ballast so I can run two lights from the same ballast??

Yes you can run 2 lights from the same ballast, I was running a solis tech ballasts and they have a splitter, so you can run 2 600's at 500W each. I guess it depends on what kind of ballast you use. Im sure they have other types of splitters.

Waste is waste and is calculated into the GPW average 1kw in aircooled is kinda... meh.. you loose the light with glass on it. 1kw's are better in a large room not a tent. I dont even like 1kw's in the XXL aircooled hoods. I totally understand you want to bomb the plant with as much light as possible, but the 1kw's are not as effective in your situation when your hitting .4 GPW.

For example, with an indica dominant strain in hydro feed, I was hitting .7-.8 GPW with a used 400 hortilux in an aircooled hood with glass. My buddy ran open parabolics with 600's in a tent and was hitting around 1GPW running ak-47 in SOG, in a flood table.

Yield is a tricky thing to improve on without considering _all_ factors. If you told me .44GPW yield, yeah that would suck but I think I was doing around .5 with a low yield strain like Girl Scout Cookies organic in soil so that makes it ok. Or mebby you have alot of product that never made it to scale?.. I dont count popcorn, I dont count trim. Only the good dried trimmed stuff.

 

[bigvajoo]

Yes you can run 2 lights from the same ballast, I was running a solis tech ballasts and they have a splitter, so you can run 2 600's at 500W each. I guess it depends on what kind of ballast you use. Im sure they have other types of splitters.

Waste is waste and is calculated into the GPW average 1kw in aircooled is kinda... meh.. you loose the light with glass on it. 1kw's are better in a large room not a tent. I dont even like 1kw's in the XXL aircooled hoods. I totally understand you want to bomb the plant with as much light as possible, but the 1kw's are not as effective in your situation when your hitting .4 GPW.

For example, with an indica dominant strain in hydro feed, I was hitting .7-.8 GPW with a used 400 hortilux in an aircooled hood with glass. My buddy ran open parabolics with 600's in a tent and was hitting around 1GPW running ak-47 in SOG, in a flood table.

Yield is a tricky thing to improve on without considering _all_ factors. If you told me .44GPW yield, yeah that would suck but I think I was doing around .5 with a low yield strain like Girl Scout Cookies organic in soil so that makes it ok. Or mebby you have alot of product that never made it to scale?.. I dont count popcorn, I dont count trim. Only the good dried trimmed stuff.

Point well taken and understood. Guess I always thought more light = more yield, which to some extent is true. But I'm more interested in gpw ratio and right now my is pretty shitty. I looked up the splitter and came across the Solis tek one you mentioned. Looks like the pug is the standard I've seen on a few different digital ballasts so it should work with mine.

Switching to two lights is less labor intensive than than pulling out my table and rez and setting up the buckets. Not to mention I've got my res maintenance worked out to a science. Don't know how long it would take to dial in the new system. But then again, its my hobby and like doing this stuff.

Thanks for you input man. I really appreciate it.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Point well taken and understood. Guess I always thought more light = more yield, which to some extent is true. But I'm more interested in gpw ratio and right now my is pretty shitty. I looked up the splitter and came across the Solis tek one you mentioned. Looks like the pug is the standard I've seen on a few different digital ballasts so it should work with mine.

Switching to two lights is less labor intensive than than pulling out my table and rez and setting up the buckets. Not to mention I've got my res maintenance worked out to a science. Don't know how long it would take to dial in the new system. But then again, its my hobby and like doing this stuff.

Thanks for you input man. I really appreciate it.

You're welcome.. they are just suggestions based on my experience. I could be wrong but, nobody has called bullshit on my opinion..