Coco Nutrient Ratios

[peacepipe17]

Ive done enough reading and my head hurts. Ive compared other products to mine etc but Id like an opinion from other coco growers on my nutrient ratios..

Specifically K:CA:MG (my understanding is this ratio should be 4:2:1)

I run: Botanicare CNS17 @ 17ml/Gal, Silica @ 5 ml/Gal, Fulvex @ 5ml/Gal

N - P - K - Ca - Mg
97-42-126-97-50

This is added to tap water that starts slightly over 100ppm @.5 conversion

Ive toyed with the idea of adding sweet (5ml/Gal) again which boosts the Mg to 70. but the ratio of Ca:Mg seems better above so Ive also thought of using the Hi-Brix Molasses instead (5ml/Gal) (extra K in it) which would give me these totals

97-42-168-97-50

which is closer to the 4:2:1 ratio I mentioned earlier. If I were to add Hydroplex (2ml/Gal) I would get

**97-67-198-97-50 (with Molasses) and honestly that looks perfect based on my knowledge**

97-67-156-97-70 (with sweet instead of molasses)

The reason I am trying to get my ratios right is I have seen an issue with either K or Mg every grow usually mid flower. A little about my grow: (2) 1k hoods, 20 bushy plants 5-6ft tall in 7 gallon containers in a 10x5 space. I top feed in smart pots.

Part of my confusion is with the K specifically. I believe I have the most of the nutrient profile correct but I know canna nutes tend to be really low in K because of the amount present in the coco coir. If someone could shed some light on the K levels as well it would be much appreciated

 

[az2000]

I don't know about coco's specific requirements, but you know you can add epsom salt to get more Mg (and sulphur). In theory (the math) that should produce 26ppm/gal Mg, 34ppm/gal S.

Also, I'm really perplexed when people talk about ratios in terms of PPMs of an element. I never know if we're supposed to think in terms of K or K2O (or P or P2O5). Those compounds are what product labels are based upon. So, a product labeled 16-16-16 (percent of weight) is a ratio of 1-1-1. But the actual (elemental) NPK will by 2.3-1.0-1.9 because K2O contains 43.64% K (and P2O5 83.02% P).

I've never been able to understand if people referring to PPM ratios are starting from the common label heuristics (not elemental) or actual, elemental. (Do you know?).

I made a spreadsheet which might be useful to you. I made it to unravel the NPK ratios resulting from multi-bottle "lineups," and create my own NPK ratio using generic products. That sounds like what you're dealing with.

 

[peacepipe17]

I know what your talking about. I used the Cannastats spreadsheet to come up with the numbers. I do not pay attention to each nutrient and what form it is. I basically copied what it said on the bottle into the spreadsheet lol

Ive also supplemented epsom salts here and there. Coco has a CEC with K:Ca:Mg and one other cation so I'm trying to figure out how to get these balanced correctly so the plant uses Mg and K the way it should. I usually end up with leaves that look and feel like they may have a temperature issue that their dealing with. Taco shaped and a nute burn look around the edges. Even though I have air cooled hoods and my room is 70-75 degrees. Colder at night.

Thanks for the spreadsheet btw.

 

[outlier]

I know what your talking about. I used the Cannastats spreadsheet to come up with the numbers. I do not pay attention to each nutrient and what form it is. I basically copied what it said on the bottle into the spreadsheet lol

Ive also supplemented epsom salts here and there. Coco has a CEC with K:Ca:Mg and one other cation so I'm trying to figure out how to get these balanced correctly so the plant uses Mg and K the way it should. I usually end up with leaves that look and feel like they may have a temperature issue that their dealing with. Taco shaped and a nute burn look around the edges. Even though I have air cooled hoods and my room is 70-75 degrees. Colder at night.

Thanks for the spreadsheet btw.

I have that same taco thing going on now. No idea what's causing it. All I know is that the fans seem to make mine worse, but don't appear to be the actual cause from what I can gather. All sorts of weird shit going on with the cation exchange in coco. Sorry I can't help ya mate. Will be following this thread with great interest myself

 

[outlier]

3/4 through my first grow with coco, I am starting to liken it to a meth addict. Give it the fix it needs or it'll fucking rob ya blind

 

[az2000]

I have that same taco thing going on now. No idea what's causing it. All I know is that the fans seem to make mine worse,

I get that in soil, especially if the humidity is low. The fan makes it worse. Sometimes I think it's an early warning of Mg def. Sometimes they roll over and expose their underside. (I think that is an early sign of Mg def. Maybe I'm extrapolating that to taco'ing.).

 

[az2000]

I know what your talking about. I used the Cannastats spreadsheet to come up with the numbers. I do not pay attention to each nutrient and what form it is. I basically copied what it said on the bottle into the spreadsheet lol

I googled for it. At the bottom of the "profiles" page is a calculator. The PPMs it displays are for elemental P and K. I assume the spreadsheet does the same thing.

It sounds like you're trying to raise K without affecting Ca:Mg? You can buy potassium sulfate, about 2lbs for $5. (Look for Alpha International Chemicals on eBay or Amazon.). It is NPK 0-0-50 (which I assume is expressed as K2O). 1g/gal is 110ppm elemental K. 45ppm sulfur. You can dissolve 100g in a 500ml bottle of distilled water. Draw 1ml to get 0.2g (22ppm elemental K).

 

[peacepipe17]

I googled for it. At the bottom of the "profiles" page is a calculator. The PPMs it displays are for elemental P and K. I assume the spreadsheet does the same thing.

It sounds like you're trying to raise K without affecting Ca:Mg? You can buy potassium sulfate, about 2lbs for $5. (Look for Alpha International Chemicals on eBay or Amazon.). It is NPK 0-0-50 (which I assume is expressed as K2O). 1g/gal is 110ppm elemental K. 45ppm sulfur. You can dissolve 100g in a 500ml bottle of distilled water. Draw 1ml to get 0.2g (22ppm elemental K).

Well Im not trying to raise K if I don't have to. I'm trying to balance K:Ca:Mg so they are taken in by the plant at the proper rates. Ive read the ratio should be like a 4:2:1 respectively but Ive also noticed that coco nutes tend to be lower in K because there is a large amount that comes naturally in the coco coir itself.

3/4 through my first grow with coco, I am starting to liken it to a meth addict. Give it the fix it needs or it'll fucking rob ya blind

I love Coco. I consider myself lucky because I started in coco about a year ago and never had any issues with weight or quality. I get .7g per watt (would always like to increase lol) and I have never had major issues but I would like healthier plants and have realized Coco is very finicky with what you feed it.

I'm also glad I started with CNS17. For a non coco specific nutrient it does the job quite well and as a new grower I could have gone wrong in many ways if I would have chosen something less appropriate. I would like to experiment with different nutrient lines but right now I am trying to find out what the plants actually need so I have a better understanding all around. I originally tried the lucas ratio I believe 100-100-200-60(Mg) which I've heard does well in Coco. Not sure tho. Up until my last turn is when I realized I have faced some of the same small issues every grow. Before I just monitored my ph and ppm and fed them whatever I felt like lmao

 

[rkymtnman]

Well Im not trying to raise K if I don't have to. I'm trying to balance K:Ca:Mg so they are taken in by the plant at the proper rates. Ive read the ratio should be like a 4:2:1 respectively but Ive also noticed that coco nutes tend to be lower in K because there is a large amount that comes naturally in the coco coir itself.



I love Coco. I consider myself lucky because I started in coco about a year ago and never had any issues with weight or quality. I get .7g per watt (would always like to increase lol) and I have never had major issues but I would like healthier plants and have realized Coco is very finicky with what you feed it.

I'm also glad I started with CNS17. For a non coco specific nutrient it does the job quite well and as a new grower I could have gone wrong in many ways if I would have chosen something less appropriate. I would like to experiment with different nutrient lines but right now I am trying to find out what the plants actually need so I have a better understanding all around. I originally tried the lucas ratio I believe 100-100-200-60(Mg) which I've heard does well in Coco. Not sure tho. Up until my last turn is when I realized I have faced some of the same small issues every grow. Before I just monitored my ph and ppm and fed them whatever I felt like lmao

try H3AD's formula for coco. it's a modified lucas formula. 6 mL micro/ 9 mL bloom and 1 gram epsom salt per gallon RO water. it worked well for me in coco.

 

[Dr. Who]

It's not ratio's or available amounts that will effect that balance a much as pH and it's swing rate when you water/feed.
It's the pH that effects uptake by being high or low and locks and blocks are mostly due to pH problems...
I really doubt your having any high K problem. The plant is pretty tolerant of K being high.....I boost K amounts to express coloring sometimes.
The problem may lie in the use of any epsom as that has detrimental effects on the buffering power of Coco - Right along with pumping up the Ca to much.

Coco needs high Ca amounts or extra or more supplementation, especially with RO use! BUT, this leads to other problems too.
When the water used to mix nutrients is very soft, then the concentration of nutrients has to go up or the coco will rob the nutrients and a Calcium deficiency will begin to show. This is exactly due to these issues. With the popularity in Reverse Osmosis systems sky-rocketing, this issue is seen more and more often. Growers plan to use pure water, feed lightly to avoid burn and feed often to keep things pumping. This however is avoidable by adding back some of the original water to buffer the water once more. There is no other very effective cure and the throwing of a Calcium/ Magnesium product at the problem gets worse over time. Adding a higher EC of the nutrients is a better and safer option. (from an old Canna web posting)

The brand of Coco you can use is important too....there are big difference's and when growing in just coco it matters tons!
If your supplementing soil for moisture retention not to big a deal as long as it's washed first.

Your canoe or taco problem sounds more like low RH and maybe high canopy temps.....You are doing a proper VPD ratio correct?

I take it your building your own nutrient and not buying off the shelf?

You might consider matching Canna ratio's or switching to Canna for the best result's. They have their coco program down! Their ratio's closely compare to the Lucas formula.....They also have, hands down, the best Coco to use bar none....

Oh my! This IS still in the Canna server......READ THIS!
IT WILL EXPLAIN TONS about Coco and how/why coco nutes are formulated.

http://www.cannagardening.com/problem_solving_coco

 

[boilingoil]

I used the CNS-17 line for years till they changed the formula. First off ditch the grow and use the bloom formula from start to finish, only other thing you'll need is Hydroplex for a PK boost from week 3-6. 7 gallon pots of coir is a lot for coco, how often are you watering? Are you allowing enough run-off? Never had to run over it over 10 ml a gallon.

 

[peacepipe17]

Are you a Canna rep? cuz honestly I don't feel like you read my post at all. I said I use tap water, I also said that I use cns17 so no I don't make my own nutes (I listed the nutes I use...) I do not supplement Cal-Mag or anything like it... especially since I'm in flower. My temps are between 70-75 as stated and RH is 50% ph goes in around 5.8 but i do allow it to swing between 5.6-6.0. Coco is pretty forgiving with PH as the coco itself will usually stay right around 6.0.

Ive read and seen all the videos from Canna my question to you you is did you read my post at all? do you even grow in coco? reason I ask is because many many people end up with a salinity issue or K issue more so than any other issue with Coco. and as long as you rinse and buffer your coco the supplier these days don't matter much as most of it is cleaner.

the taco problem is accompanied by burnt edges which points directly at a K issue which could either be from the amount given or an imbalance in the medium because as you know the medium will hold onto K if the levels of Ca and Mg are not in the correct range

 

[peacepipe17]

I used the CNS-17 line for years till they changed the formula. First off ditch the grow and use the bloom formula from start to finish, only other thing you'll need is Hydroplex for a PK boost from week 3-6. 7 gallon pots of coir is a lot for coco, how often are you watering? Are you allowing enough run-off? Never had to run over it over 10 ml a gallon.

I use 7 gal pots because I have 7 ft plants. Ive always had very good weight from my two lights and I believe that's why. Big plants and big pots. Roots full every time. I do water with a little runoff. So whats your EC with just 10ml/gal and no other nutrients? I feed at 1.4 with the nute profile in the original post. Ive fed higher in the past but have realized there is no need. Less I have shown deficiencies. Ive always grown the bigger plants not a lot of smaller plants.

 

[boilingoil]

I use 7 gal pots because I have 7 ft plants. Ive always had very good weight from my two lights and I believe that's why. Big plants and big pots. Roots full every time. I do water with a little runoff. So whats your EC with just 10ml/gal and no other nutrients? I feed at 1.4 with the nute profile in the original post. Ive fed higher in the past but have realized there is no need. Less I have shown deficiencies. Ive always grown the bigger plants not a lot of smaller plants.

I grow 4-5' plants in 9 liter pots (2.6 gallons) biggest I ever used for coir was 18liter pots.
I've never used EC so i'll give it in PPM. When I used it I ran around 850 ppm max but that was with 330 ppm starting water source. K can be a problem in coir especially with longer veg times as coir does hold onto it. Are you watering every day?. Just as an example, these were grown not seeing over 500 ppm with starting water source around 100 ppm

 

[outlier]

I get that in soil, especially if the humidity is low. The fan makes it worse. Sometimes I think it's an early warning of Mg def. Sometimes they roll over and expose their underside. (I think that is an early sign of Mg def. Maybe I'm extrapolating that to taco'ing.).

My humidity is relatively steady between 40 and 50 (nearing wk 6 flower). Night time here we get 80+ so I just leave the dehumid running on the split cycle system I have in the room. House is cooled by the central system. I have that set to kick in at 28c and it keeps the whole house at about 25c.

All I know is that the curling is not heat stress. The curl is at the serrated edges. It's more of a square taco (can actually see the similar curl in boiling's pic too). I ran my 250w hps in a wardrobe without ventilation. I know what heat stress looks like

peacepipe is right. There's funky stuff going on with coco that is not clearly understood. Exacerbated exponentially by soft water (mine starts at about 18-20ppm). Canna does highlight that in the problem solving coco article. But they aren't too precise on what exactly is going on here. They basically reiterated my meth addict line in a more diplomatic way

 

[boilingoil]

So there is no confusion, those plants were not grown using the CNS-17 line. I haven't used that line in years since they switched from their original CNS-17 formula to their all-purpose.

 

[peacepipe17]

So there is no confusion, those plants were not grown using the CNS-17 line. I haven't used that line in years since they switched from their original CNS-17 formula to their all-purpose.

I wasn't growing when the original recipe was out lol but very nice.. that's how mine usually look. in terms of ppm mine is 750 but that's at a .5 conversion (Hannah meter)

and since you mentioned veg times my plants did veg for almost 2 months.. primarily because I moved in the middle of this grow. Didn't flip to flower till I got em to the new house and had everything going good for a few weeks.

Im thinking of H&G nutes to try next but Ill switch once I understand COCOs high CEC. Since I know this stuff I use now gets the job done at least lol

 

[az2000]

Im thinking of H&G nutes to try next but Ill switch once I understand COCOs high CEC. Since I know this stuff I use now gets the job done at least lol

I'm curious, why do you stay with coco when you "usually" have a problem in mid flower? Wouldn't it be easier to switch to Pro-Mix if you want to remain soilless, or switch to a soil?

I used to use Pro-Mix HP. I never had issues. I began mixing 20% Kellogg Patio Plus and 20% perlite to 60% HP and it's been working very, very well using a balance of synthetic and organic nutrients.

I'm not trying to convert you. I'm curious what coco delivers to justify all this challenge you're working with.

 

[peacepipe17]

I'm curious, why do you stay with coco when you "usually" have a problem in mid flower? Wouldn't it be easier to switch to Pro-Mix if you want to remain soilless, or switch to a soil?

I used to use Pro-Mix HP. I never had issues. I began mixing 20% Kellogg Patio Plus and 20% perlite to 60% HP and it's been working very, very well using a balance of synthetic and organic nutrients.

I'm not trying to convert you. I'm curious what coco delivers to justify all this challenge you're working with.

I do plan on doing some promix when I have more space and lights. Right now I gotta stick with what works. Outside of the overall plant health at times I do get very good yields and I cant afford for that to change at all.

I taught my closest friend and set up his room and he grows in pro-mix. In fact a lot of people I personally know do and none of them get the weight I do.. but then again they don't understand everything in depth like I do. They just do it how they were taught basically and it works good for em so they don't change it.

Ive only been growing for a year and a half and I started in Coco. I guess I just like the breathability the most. Which I'm sure with the perlite cut and such you prolly have the same success with pro-mix. I plan on trying a little bit of everything once I can. Supersoil, DWC, Soil and Pro-mix. Would like to try em all.

Speaking of promix.. do you use hydro nutes and feed at a hydro ph with that or do you treat it like soil. He has asked me about that and I always tell him Ive read plenty of guides from people that say to water and fertilize like soil and many others that say to do so like other soilless mediums (hydro)

 

[az2000]

Speaking of promix.. do you use hydro nutes and feed at a hydro ph with that or do you treat it like soil.

Premier Hort. (makes Pro-Mix) says 5.9. Most people say 5.8-6.0 in veg, 6.0-6.2 in flower. That's what I did with GH Flora 3-part. Yes, I think it's best to feed hydro nutrients with soilless.

I add 20% soil now and treat it as soil. I wouldn't use hydro nutrients with soil (nor soil nutrients with soilless).

You mentioned wanting to try supersoil. @unwine99 has an interesting "no-cook" soil I'd like to try. Just water-only (or some teas) through the whole grow. (I'd like to try that kind of growing without the burden of composting a soil for months.).