All BS set aside CMH yields

[TheChemist77]

I remember posting something to this effect when I first switched to these 315's. It takes a couple of grows to get used to them, the plants react differently, not a bad thing but definitely different. They mature faster and set buds quick, in turn they get very thirsty/hungry in that transition period which takes some adjustment in watering/feeding them.

after spending years growing with mh hps, it is a big change but a good one, i also hit 1.2 gpw first run w cmh..my big problem is getting the height i used to get, even adding a week of veg i still have shorter plants under cmh. i like having a bed of 3ft plants and since the switch im getting 2 ft tall plants.. the nodes are closer,buds are more frosty, and very little leaf but it could be strain related as ive only grown 2 strains with cmh so far and my gum is indica dominant..i know throwing in a nice sativa would get me the height im after. but i have to stick w the same strain till the end of my next run for testing purposes..i just put a few new strains in paper towels, ak48,misty, and avalon.. the big bomb is 5 weeks into flower and will probably replace the bubble gum after the run under hps..it has bigger buds,a nice smell,very frosty and it is only getting indirect light in a 5 gal dwc bucket on the side of the table..my lamps are inline over the center of the 4x6 table and then i have 5 buckets on the left side of the table and those plants are growing well so the cmh is actually covering a 6x6 area with the buckets only getting indirect over lap lighting.

 

[GroErr]

after spending years growing with mh hps, it is a big change but a good one, i also hit 1.2 gpw first run w cmh..my big problem is getting the height i used to get, even adding a week of veg i still have shorter plants under cmh. i like having a bed of 3ft plants and since the switch im getting 2 ft tall plants.. the nodes are closer,buds are more frosty, and very little leaf but it could be strain related as ive only grown 2 strains with cmh so far and my gum is indica dominant..i know throwing in a nice sativa would get me the height im after. but i have to stick w the same strain till the end of my next run for testing purposes..i just put a few new strains in paper towels, ak48,misty, and avalon.. the big bomb is 5 weeks into flower and will probably replace the bubble gum after the run under hps..it has bigger buds,a nice smell,very frosty and it is only getting indirect light in a 5 gal dwc bucket on the side of the table..my lamps are inline over the center of the 4x6 table and then i have 5 buckets on the left side of the table and those plants are growing well so the cmh is actually covering a 6x6 area with the buckets only getting indirect over lap lighting.

Yeah you're test wouldn't be valid if you change up the strains. I don't have any reference to that as I was running LED to LED in veg/flower, then switched to CMH for flower so they stretched a lot more than LED-to-LED. The light spread is quite good, I noticed those plants off to the side of your table were doing just fine. I'm running a small 2gal in the corner, away from direct light but there's enough with 2 of them in the room and reflection that it's doing fine, it's just a test pheno from seed of some Fire OG so I don't really care how much I get from it as long as it smells/tastes good

 

[TheChemist77]

the plants in the buckets on the side are not included in final yields.. my test is on the 30plants on the table, but you can see they are doing just fine and if i did include the yield off them it would bring my gpw up quite a bit.. i have 30 bubble gum rooted and in veg under the mh lamp now.. the table has 8 days left i need to get pix up..but im all set to switch the lamp to 1 1,000watt hps and start the test run.. ill get everything trimmed and dry then post dry weight and pix, i just changed the rez to flush, .. have u noticed plants finishing sooner under the cmh? my gum usually always takes the full 8 weeks but they have looked like they could be pulled at 7 weeks, but im giving them a week of flush as i had clones and everything timed for an 8 week run..

 

[febisfebi]

@febisfebi too long! People gonna get lost in posts like that, lol

Anyway, the reason I said the next generation of ballasts will be running DC current is precisely because they'll be driving COB LED chips!

HID tech is over for all planning purposes. COB LED is on its way and it's a better light in damn near every way. It's just a matter of time before it's cheaper up front as well as less expensive to operate.

I waited out the blurple LED era, too. Those units did us early adopters a favor by scaring off the uninformed and holding back the tide of manufacturers.

The guys here have done excellent work testing chips for efficiency and spectrum, discovering just how beneficial current droop is for our purposes and coming up with ready to use configurations for the relatively uninitiated such as myself.

I'm using a Venture MH in my finishing zone right now. Decent lights, but they are the low cost producer. Sunmaster HPS sucks, lol. You want a top quality budget HPS, get Plantmax thouies.

I know I missed something... try not to bury your points quite so deep? And pass that joint, cuz that shit's gooooooood! Lol

Whoah, lol. I think I even got lost myself, in that one. Definitely some gooood! I would love to pass that shit, man but rarely have anyone to pass it to, and before I know, its gone. and so am I. must have been on a good one last night
Im sure I lost many people, but it sounds like at least person read it! damn phones and tablets and such got us so used to trying to say things in a few words, cause it takes so long, i lose my train of thought, its really frustrating actually, lol
when I find myself in front of a keyboard, my fingers start typing faster than I can even think. so usually a quick edit/chop down is what I usually try and do, so just in case someone actually reads it, they might be able to follow.
Seem to have forgotten about that part., I apologize to anyone who had to roll their mouse wheel a few extra times, or flick your tablet/phone in frustration!

That is exciting to finally hear about some good led's. can you really mount them way high like hid lights and achieve overlap?
Thats probably true. Im sure they will try to make DC HID drivers before long, but itll be a last ditch before HID is phased out. We would need a supply of efficient inexpensive DC power supplies capable of supplying that kind of current. That is the bottleneck in that great idea. Probably will be way to expensive to be practical, before COB LED;s will take over completely, since they take half the draw of HID. Its all gonna become about DC power supplies, good led chips, and Optics, to spread those motherfuckers. It would be cool to have an LED lighting package type thing where you could mount tons of little pods all over your cieling, all overlapping. that would be a product worthy of some hard earned cash. Really it shouldnt be that much more expensive than making one giant panel, to make a bunch of tiny ones. they wouldnt even need their own power supplies neccesarily, although that may very well be the cheaper more efficient option.

How do you like your venture MH? are you driving it with anything cool? How does the spectrum perform? I assume your using the natural white lamp? was this maybe the replacement for the 860 CDM? lol
The natural white(with the wide SPD) seems like it could compete with the 315 agro elite spectrum wise, and you can scale it easier without so many small lights.
I understand they are the cheaper producer, and we dont know how accurate their advertising is, but if they cam make lamps with that SPD that last 40k hours, they must be at least pretty decent, I would think. Since your using it for finishing, it will never get close to that much use, before HID has been long forgotten.
perhaps a good stepping stone to COB? then you could combine the two, as you add more COB. Do the COB excel more at supplemental lighting, or do they have some serious flower power without added hid lights?

I would never buy a sunmaster hps, or any SE HPS for that matter, I already have plenty of se hps bulbs anyways.
I am trying sunmaster for the 6k MH only, to use as a supplement light, due to the broad spectral output, much like that of the natural white, but slightly higher color temp. Normally I would wait til there was good information about something like this product, but I had the opportunity to try a 1kw for next to nothing, so we shall see how she performs

Any new HPS will be DE philips with focal reflector, overlapped with FS, and overlapped with another DE, ushio maybe, but that is still up for debate.
i wanted to get your opinion that, actually. If your not currently using either of them, I wanted to get your opinion of the SPD of each.
I have been hearing that the ushio actually has the better spectrum, and by looking at it, thats the impression I got as well, before I had heard that. Most people I'v talked to swear by the Philips, and I would too 99% of the time, just because of my confidence in their products. But the Ushio looks to be worth considering at least. Its not a huge difference in spectrum. they both put out 2100umol and last 10k hrs, both are made in countries wtih good QC. but the ushio has quite a bit more in the 590nm or so range, which seems important being that it is so close to where the quantum efficiency for photosynthesis nears 1, which if I remember correctly is around 625nm I believe.
I wonder. Did Philips leave this out because it wasnt neccesary for plant growth, or because the part just before the deepest valley is more important? or is it maybe a slight variation/ possible small improvement of performamce?
I do see another difference upon closer examination. the philips has a thin, tall spike, right around 625nm. so maybe I answered my own question. That might make all the difference in the world right there.
I wanted to get your opinion still though, because I trust you know what your talking about.

Im sure i'm reading into this way too much, I know the Ushio is cheaper, but I am not interested in saving $20 per bulb if one is better than the other. At the same time I dont want to pay $20 extra per bulb if the cheaper ones actually turn out to be better. I just want the better bulb. the combination if that is better.
Thanks, hope this isnt too buried, lol.
puff puff pass

 

[TheChemist77]

if your still using hps, save money and buy plantmax bulbs...ive talked to several big grow ops, and everyone i spoke with advised me to buy the plantmax, they swich bulbs every 6 months, and yield the same as they would using $100.00 bulbs and changing them every10-12 months..same yields and save money.. or switch to cmh, 1 bulb that lasts 20,000 hours,, im all over it..no bulb changes for me in the near future..
if you can build led, go there, but im not inclined to build so untill the led's are lower priced and perfected, im happy with the cmh lamps..

 

[febisfebi]

@TheChemist123, and @ttystikk I did not realize plantmax made DE bulbs.
they say 20k hrs, and the spectrum looks comparable, to Philips and Ushio, for about half the price, twice the life. Very interesting. Thanks for the info.
so then the question becomes then, which of these three bulbs is going to be the best for our purposes? or which combination?
I dont see the PPF listed for the plantmax, but I am guessing it is comparable? The lumens listed seem higher, but that doesnt equal PPF.
Thanks you guys, I appreciate it.

 

[BOBBY_G]

I am also looking into CMH.

I am currently set on nanolux DE fixtures but I see some promise in CMH with efficiency, Heat.
I just see the footprint is quite small.

But the price isnt too bad.

I believe there is a 850w CMH and 900 out there.

I am not sure of the penatration either.
Seems like a good light source if there are good results/yeilds for the Cash crop growers here.

would penetrate the same as any other point source light (mh,hps,etc) at the same intensity and distance

physics be physics, those rules dont bend

 

[BOBBY_G]

if your still using hps, save money and buy plantmax bulbs...ive talked to several big grow ops, and everyone i spoke with advised me to buy the plantmax, they swich bulbs every 6 months, and yield the same as they would using $100.00 bulbs and changing them every10-12 months..same yields and save money.. or switch to cmh, 1 bulb that lasts 20,000 hours,, im all over it..no bulb changes for me in the near future..
if you can build led, go there, but im not inclined to build so untill the led's are lower priced and perfected, im happy with the cmh lamps..

they are perfected. already better than any other tech and getting better. price is... well... it is what it is. you could build youself a simple COB setup for $1-2/watt, or buy one for $2.50/W

(no affiliation... there are other options as well)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/225-Watt-Cree-3590-Meanwell-Led-Grow-Light-/181963341668?hash=item2a5ddc3f64:g:CV4AAOSwZ1lWcO0r

monochromatic LED (the purple ones) are already better than HPS. the full spectrum CREE COBs are better than both...

 

[swagslayer420]

Ive used the Ushio De pro 2100umol in sun system AC/DE 8" with galaxy grow amp ballast and have had Great results..
I also got 7 area51 w90's 3000k going in a 4x4 doesn't have the penetrating light of DE 2100umol is where it is at it makes for big colas and frosty resin coated nugs, also I began switching to a solis tek mh 10k DE bulb with there 2.0 ballast for last 2 weeks of flower and notice faster finishing and more resin production.

 

[ttystikk]

Ive used the Ushio De pro 2100umol in sun system AC/DE 8" with galaxy grow amp ballast and have had Great results..
I also got 7 area51 w90's 3000k going in a 4x4 doesn't have the penetrating light of DE 2100umol is where it is at it makes for big colas and frosty resin coated nugs, also I began switching to a solis tek mh 10k DE bulb with there 2.0 ballast for last 2 weeks of flower and notice faster finishing and more resin production.

Let's hear about your cooling system now.

 

[swagslayer420]

Let's hear about your cooling system now.

10k btu window ac/dehum, 6in intake split and 2 6' scrubbers and one 6' for DE exhausted out the room. temps stay 75-86 lights on and 62-65 lights off RH stays 30-44% on and 48-55% off

 

[febisfebi]

10k btu window ac/dehum, 6in intake split and 2 6' scrubbers and one 6' for DE exhausted out the room. temps stay 75-86 lights on and 62-65 lights off RH stays 30-44% on and 48-55% off

thats way to cool for the DE bulb's to perform properly. like @ttystikk said earlier, the DE bulbs need to get really hot before they reach max output. you might be getting better than regular hps, but your bulb is likely running at less that 80% efficiency. The sun system DE cooled reflector is a flawed design. They should have never made it, because it will make your lamp not work right. If you have all that cooling, to begin with, why on earth would you need a cooled hood?

@ttystikk Are you speaking mainly about the SE plantmax? I am curious about their DE bulb. the spectrum looks nice, I think between philips, and ushio, I like the philips, because of the 625nm sweet spot, but the plantmax seems to have this covered at around 80% power, which looks like it covers that sweet spot at least as good as philips, if not better. I have to wonder what the PPF output is, I dont see it published anywhere, which makes me suspicious, about that, and their other claims. like do they really last 20k hours? wouldnt the spectral output degrade long before that in a HF ballast?
I must admit I am surprised to hear all you guys suggesting a cheap hydrofarm brand. Do they finally have something worthwhile?
thanks

 

[ttystikk]

thats way to cool for the DE bulb's to perform properly. like @ttystikk said earlier, the DE bulbs need to get really hot before they reach max output. you might be getting better than regular hps, but your bulb is likely running at less that 80% efficiency. The sun system DE cooled reflector is a flawed design. They should have never made it, because it will make your lamp not work right. If you have all that cooling, to begin with, why on earth would you need a cooled hood?

@ttystikk Are you speaking mainly about the SE plantmax? I am curious about their DE bulb. the spectrum looks nice, I think between philips, and ushio, I like the philips, because of the 625nm sweet spot, but the plantmax seems to have this covered at around 80% power, which looks like it covers that sweet spot at least as good as philips, if not better. I have to wonder what the PPF output is, I dont see it published anywhere, which makes me suspicious, about that, and their other claims. like do they really last 20k hours? wouldnt the spectral output degrade long before that in a HF ballast?
I must admit I am surprised to hear all you guys suggesting a cheap hydrofarm brand. Do they finally have something worthwhile?
thanks

I was indeed referring to their SE HPS lamps. I don't know from DE because I don't run any.

Can't comment on the hood, I haven't seen it.

Yes, most HPS lamps will physically last and continue to operate for an average (fifty percent failure rate) lifetime of 24,000 hours. Just because the damned thing will still strike an arc does not mean much; both efficiency and spectrum efficacy deteriorate beginning with the very first time it's struck. Six months on most SE HPS bulbs is as much as they're really good for and they should be changed.

DE lamps are advertised to go three years without significant lumen depreciation, but that's a suspicious statistic for an agricultural lamp; lumens ain't PAR, and all the lighting companies know this very well. Since I don't own any I cannot say, but I wonder what the SPECTRAL depreciation curve looks like?

 

[febisfebi]

I was indeed referring to their SE HPS lamps. I don't know from DE because I don't run any.

Can't comment on the hood, I haven't seen it.

Yes, most HPS lamps will physically last and continue to operate for an average (fifty percent failure rate) lifetime of 24,000 hours. Just because the damned thing will still strike an arc does not mean much; both efficiency and spectrum efficacy deteriorate beginning with the very first time it's struck. Six months on most SE HPS bulbs is as much as they're really good for and they should be changed.

DE lamps are advertised to go three years without significant lumen depreciation, but that's a suspicious statistic for an agricultural lamp; lumens ain't PAR, and all the lighting companies know this very well. Since I don't own any I cannot say, but I wonder what the SPECTRAL depreciation curve looks like?

I agree, that is a very suspicious statement. Like you said they only mention lumen depreciation which means nothing for us. I have never heard of anyone doing this kind of testing, I have only seen one guy post atual generated spectral graphs for many bulbs and combinations, which was very educational, with a $2000 meter. But that was several years ago, on an old forum. I doubt we will get that lucky again. I guess we could get an idea if someone has a cheap-er PAR meter.

Could I get your opinion, solely based on your knowledge of SPD, and plant respponse. do you think it would be worthwhile to mix two of these different DE bulbs, in overlap, to help even out the spectrum?
I'm considering, Ushio, and now maybe plantmax as a second to my existing greenpower, but only if there is something to be gained.
I'm really not worried about price, they are not much different. other than that the plantmax is so cheap, I fear for its quality, but its also so cheap it might be worth trying anyways, if there is even a chance it might add something beneficial to plant growth,, or is 2 identical Philips GP's overlapping each other and FS MH. important.
I am already supplementing with FS MH, so the lack of any signicant blue output on any of these should be well covered.

Same goes for Ushio, so if you would be so kind as to take a quick look, and let me know what you think, I'd appreciate it very much.
I was unable to find an accurate spectral chart for the philips 1000 GP, so I took a picture of my box, to ensure we are both looking at the same one. along with the others, so you dont have to look them up.

 

[ttystikk]

I agree, that is a very suspicious statement. Like you said they only mention lumen depreciation which means nothing for us. I have never heard of anyone doing this kind of testing, I have only seen one guy post atual generated spectral graphs for many bulbs and combinations, which was very educational, with a $2000 meter. But that was several years ago, on an old forum. I doubt we will get that lucky again. I guess we could get an idea if someone has a cheap-er PAR meter.

Could I get your opinion, solely based on your knowledge of SPD, and plant respponse. do you think it would be worthwhile to mix two of these different DE bulbs, in overlap, to help even out the spectrum?
I'm considering, Ushio, and now maybe plantmax as a second to my existing greenpower, but only if there is something to be gained.
I'm really not worried about price, they are not much different. other than that the plantmax is so cheap, I fear for its quality, but its also so cheap it might be worth trying anyways, if there is even a chance it might add something beneficial to plant growth,, or is 2 identical Philips GP's overlapping each other and FS MH. important.
I am already supplementing with FS MH, so the lack of any signicant blue output on any of these should be well covered.

Same goes for Ushio, so if you would be so kind as to take a quick look, and let me know what you think, I'd appreciate it very much.
I was unable to find an accurate spectral chart for the philips 1000 GP, so I took a picture of my box, to ensure we are both looking at the same one. along with the others, so you dont have to look them up.

I do not think it will make a significant difference.

 

[genuity]

I run 4 of these in my room,no ac..just fresh air..room gets no hotter than 85.

Some of the info in this thread is way off...

I do wish he would have tested the par with the ballast on full blast.
He has other vids,for the lec also.

 

[genuity]

This is the lec vid,not the same dude..

They did a good job

 

[swagslayer420]

thats way to cool for the DE bulb's to perform properly. like @ttystikk said earlier, the DE bulbs need to get really hot before they reach max output. you might be getting better than regular hps, but your bulb is likely running at less that 80% efficiency. The sun system DE cooled reflector is a flawed design. They should have never made it, because it will make your lamp not work right. If you have all that cooling, to begin with, why on earth would you need a cooled hood?..


febisbebi,

The Hood is enclosed from the light chamber so no air is flowing directly over the DE bulb it flows over the chamber and I keep it 30' off the top of the canopy... I put reducer flanges on both side to accept 6' ducting and run 400cfm on speed controller. Sun system did an excellent job in the fabrication of my hood built here in the U.S.A.. Other members have had great success with them as I have.. I run T5HO, CFL, LED, SE HPS/MH, DE HPS/MH all have a place in my garden and soon CMH, Induction and plasma!

 

[ttystikk]

I see how the hood works now. It's still under glass, taxing both intensity and spectrum.

Having looked over the list of lighting you have, I'd say it's a great collection of lighting- nearly all of which is soon to be made obsolete by COB LED!

 

[febisfebi]

@swagslayer420 I still dont know why anyone would want to use anything but an open reflector. those cooled reflectors may be made in the USA and have nice build quality, but they are also expensive, and have some serious design flaws. besides not having the advantage of being placed in the focal point, you have glass in front, and are wasting moneyand power on fans, speed controllers, and other expensive gear including the ~$300 reflector that is only hurting your performance. you have more than enough cooling to run them open, you say you want to run it closer to the plants? why is that? you are just going to over saturate the plant right below it, and the others will not have proper coverage. these lights are meant to be mounted real high, and cover 21 square feet each. they are able to do this at 1000umol/square meter, which is where you will see the best performance.

@genuity that video does not prove anything. I have found other reviews that show way higher numbers with the cooled reflector. This is because they are testing it at 36" in a small footprint, so the numbers mean nothing. of course your going to get higher numbers the closer you go to the light with your meter. But to your garden you are going to end up focusing a beam meant to cover 21square feet, in a small area, so the plant right underneath will be over saturated, and the rest will be sitting outside the focused beam. This is going to hurt all your plants, not just the ones witout proper light coverage, but also the one directly underneath will get fried, not from heat, with the coooled reflector, but from too much light in one small area.
Dont believe everything you read or hear. even with expensive testing equipment, the tests are meaningless when the lamps are used in configurations other than they were designed for.

I do not think it will make a significant difference.

Okay, thank you. I was looking real hard for some kind of comparison, and trying everywhere I could think of to find out a rough idea of the PPFD of the plantmax DE. The best I could come up with though was a hydrofarm (I believe) sponsored "test" that supposedly was comparing 8 or so DE bulbs/configurations available, and guess what they show as coming out on top. The 8" cooled ac/de reflector, supposedly has highest PAR output which I dont believe for a second. They also show gavita/philips, almost as low as plantmax, being about half the PAR output, of hydrofarm products. This entire study is obviously total bullshit, and I dont know why they are knocking their own product, but they obviously just want to sell the most expensive bulb/driver period, without losing cutomers to gavita/philips once they realize they will be spending a fortune regardless, if they want "quality" DE tech. I was trying to find the study again, so you all could see how ridiculous the information they are trying to push is getting, but I cant seem to pull it up again, and im not going to waste any more time looking for it, just to spread misinformation, lol. I'm still not convinced the plantmax DE is crap, and could potentially be the last $60 I need to buy for this setup, as opposed to the $125 philips, which could mean more money for my next project, which will be COB.