SCROG Gone APESHIT!!

[Al B. Fuct]

You're discovering one of the biggest drawbacks to running a grow op.... you're tied to it. No holidays for indoor farmers...

 

[nashbar]

He says this like he this did not know the difference between salinity (presence of NaCl [table salt] in solution) and ionic compounds. Ionic compounds are sometimes referred to as "salts" of a particular element. There had better be no 'salt' (NaCl) in your soil or nutrient solution. His comments on salt in tapwater apply mainly to those using a salt-based water softener. Municipalities don't add salt to treated water.

nit-picking, i know some chemistry

Jorge's reverse osmosis is how nutrient burn in hydroponics was described to me...

"salt" isn't NaCl, Cervantes was correct.

"table salt" is NaCl, usually with Iodine and trace other salts.

Salt (chemistry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

semantics

PS i don't know what it's like to be married but growing pot might be similar. ignore the thing for more than 2 days and all hell breaks loose.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

'Salt' isn't 'salts', Cervantes either didn't know what he was talking about or didn't use the correct term- and it is MUCH more than a semantic difference."Salt' is NaCl.

 

[\x0D]

You're discovering one of the biggest drawbacks to running a grow op.... you're tied to it. No holidays for indoor farmers...

Yea but this is like being "tied down" to my wife- I wouldnt want it any other way!!

A few questions plz?

So now that I have converted over to ebb and flood, how often should I be flooding the trays?

I am using 4" rockwool cubes, they seem to be pretty soaked still even though the last time they were flooded was about 24 hrs ago..

I read somewhere in your harvest every 2 weeks thread that you were flooding when about half the water weight was gone from the medium..

Should this be the case for the cubes as well, even though it may take 24-48 or more hours to get to that weight?

It seems the available oxygen in the cubes may be pretty much depleted after sitting that long ...

I will be looking at a medium like fytocell or perlite for the next batch, but have to make this work for about 4-5 more weeks..

 

[Al B. Fuct]

So now that I have converted over to ebb and flood, how often should I be flooding the trays?

I am using 4" rockwool cubes, they seem to be pretty soaked still even though the last time they were flooded was about 24 hrs ago..

4" cubes won't be quite large enough on their own for the rootmass needed by vigorous, mature plants. You may want to put those cubes in ~175mm plastic pots stuffed with RW floc or nest them in pots of clay pellets, with the RW cube 1/2" above the flood level. The watering requirements are quite different; for pots of RW, 1x/day perhaps a 2nd flood a couple hours before lights-off for large plants. Pots of pellets can be flooded much more frequently, starting with 5x/day and up for mature vigorous plants.

I read somewhere in your harvest every 2 weeks thread that you were flooding when about half the water weight was gone from the medium..

Should this be the case for the cubes as well, even though it may take 24-48 or more hours to get to that weight?

Yep. If your cubes are remaining too wet, it's because your plants are not yet large enough to suck up a large proportion of the water in 24 hrs. Very small plants may only need watering every other day in RW.

It seems the available oxygen in the cubes may be pretty much depleted after sitting that long ...

It would be. Water will lose most of the added dissolved O2 in about 24h. However, as the plant removes water from the cube, air is drawn in to replace it, albeit in very small amounts in RW.

I will be looking at a medium like fytocell or perlite for the next batch, but have to make this work for about 4-5 more weeks..

Try putting them in pots with the media choices described above.

 

[\x0D]

4" cubes won't be quite large enough on their own for the rootmass needed by vigorous, mature plants. You may want to put those cubes in ~175mm plastic pots stuffed with RW floc or nest them in pots of clay pellets, with the RW cube 1/2" above the flood level.

Since I work from home, and can keep an eye on the cab in my office all day, I think the pellets may be a great choice, as i can water more frequenty and keep fresh flow over the roots.. Everything is on a timer, but its always reassuring to know something stupid hasnt happened, and I am not pumping my tank into the kitchen celing downstairs

Being as these have been flowering for 4 weeks now, do you think the remaining time ( appx 4 wks?) will be long enough to allow a useable root system to develop in the new media ( do they even root strongly while flowering?) , and is it worth the tradeoff in height?
I havent seen a lot of stretching lately, though so may get away with it..

Heres a pic or 2 from the room today..

I know you get it a lot, but thanks again , Al!
Its really nice to have experienced grower taking the time to steer me in the right direction!! Just wish i could fire one up with ya for your trouble!!

-\x0D

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Being as these have been flowering for 4 weeks now, do you think the remaining time ( appx 4 wks?) will be long enough to allow a useable root system to develop in the new media ( do they even root strongly while flowering?) , and is it worth the tradeoff in height?

Yep, they keep developing roots until the day you chop them. I don't know what trade-off in height you're thinking of.

I havent seen a lot of stretching lately, though so may get away with it..

If you're in wk4 of flowering, that's about the time that they stop gaining vertical height, anyway.

Just wish i could fire one up with ya for your trouble!!

heh, thanks. If it makes you feel any better, you can be assured there's no shortage of buds around here.

 

[\x0D]

heh, thanks. If it makes you feel any better, you can be assured there's no shortage of buds around here.

I dont doubt that, somehow...

Great score this AM! - While looking for somewhere close that sells perlite or clay pellets,I found a "orchid" shop right around the corner that sells a lot of hydro supplies. the next closest shop is 45 min away, and seems a bit "hot"- Great prople running it, but too high of a profile, I think.. I try to keep my trips there to a minimum.

So I wound up with a bag of Hydroton, and 6x6.5" pots. I have these filled to the 4" mark and rinsed off well to get rid of the clay " kool aid" that would have been all over my tank if i didnt.

Once these are in and settled, I guess I will hand water the RW cubes on top until the roots have taken in the pellets... Unless you have another recommendation...

On the subject of perlite, just a warning to anyone reading this.. Home Depot sells bags of perlite, but it is Miracle Gro brand, and has nutrients in it. I almost bought it without reading the label, glad I did!!
This prob would have been the cause of some very unhappy plants if I didnt catch it!!

Lights on at 11 , so I will post some pics then.

\-x0D

 

[\x0D]

Alright, everybody is repotted, and I flooded the tray for the first time with the new pots.. The pic of the plant in the front middle ( the RW that is higher than the rest) is actually sitting on another RW cube as well.
This was the shortest plant in the previous SCROG setup and i had to bring it up to the level of the other ones. I guess the bottom 1/2 of that cube may stay a bit wet...
\-x0D

 

[Al B. Fuct]

ok, now we wait & watch how it goes.

Be planning your next crop now. If you don't have it going already, a mother plant should be vegging up in another area with 18+hr/day light, getting ready to donate cuttings, which you will do apx 14 days before you harvest this mob. That way, when you are harvesting this mob, your next batch of clones will be rooted and ready to go in on the day you take out the matured plants.

 

[\x0D]

I have been noticing a bit of droopiness from the plants on the left side of the cab( the ones with the best bud development so far...) for the last few days, and now this AM, i see this all over the leaves- Mostly top growth..

Is this nute burn or a deficency?
This is the first tank where I brought up the mix to 1400 ppm of just GH Flora 3-part and h202.
Prev it was 1400, but about 600 of that was additives. (cal-mag, hygrozyme,daimond nectar, liquid kool bloom)

So in my limited experience, I guess the options are to either flush the medium with Clearex, or add some Cal-mag to existing tank and wait..

Im sure theres a 3rd or 4th option, but I couldnt tell you what it is...

I am holding off flooding the tray this AM until I hear some opinions on WTF this is..

-\x0D

 

[Al B. Fuct]

I have been noticing a bit of droopiness from the plants on the left side of the cab( the ones with the best bud development so far...) for the last few days, and now this AM, i see this all over the leaves- Mostly top growth..

Is this nute burn or a deficency?

Unlikely it's a deficiency. When you're using commercially made nutes, deficiencies are rare, but pH being off can induce nutrient lockout, which appears as a deficiency. What's the pH & ppm?

What's the air temp running? How close to the lights are the cooked leaves?

 

[\x0D]

Ph has been 5.8-6.0, Checked PPM this morning, was 1270
Air temp is 74deg F
Proximety to leaves seemed likely to me too, but there are some of the same symptoms in some of the lowest points of the canopy too..

I have been consistently been supplementing with cal-mag up until this last tank. I use RO water,-the water here sucks.

Since it has been a few weeks without a good flush I went on ahead and rinsed the medium out real well using 15ml/Gal Clearex.. and RO water .

PPM when i started was 50, it finally stopped rising at around 600.
They always seem to blast off for a few days after a flush too..Guess it makes them happy .

I have not mixed up new soup yet, kind of waiting to see what to do...

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Ph has been 5.8-6.0, Checked PPM this morning, was 1270
Air temp is 74deg F

pH & ppm are OK, of course.

Is 74F your peak temp during lights on?

Proximety to leaves seemed likely to me too, but there are some of the same symptoms in some of the lowest points of the canopy too..

weird, that leaf damage looks like high temps or too close a proximity to the light.

I have been consistently been supplementing with cal-mag up until this last tank. I use RO water,-the water here sucks.

Since it has been a few weeks without a good flush I went on ahead and rinsed the medium out real well using 15ml/Gal Clearex.. and RO water .

Unless your tapwater comes out of the sea, you don't need RO. You very likely wouldn't need CalMag if you were using tapwater.

Clearex is a 'magic sauce' which is known to contain sugars. Don't use this or any other sugar-containing sauce in your op.

Flushing isn't necessary and in fact can cause problems. If there's an accumulation of nutrient salts on the surface of your medium, if you top-flush, you can shift those concentrated nutes down into the rootzone and induce a burn. Nute salts on the top surface of media really don't hurt anything as the roots are in the bottoms of the pots- but if you flush from the top, you're putting those nutes deep into the rootmass. I half wonder if that's what happened here.

PPM when i started was 50, it finally stopped rising at around 600.

ppm of what is 50-600?

They always seem to blast off for a few days after a flush too..Guess it makes them happy .

If your plants are perking up after flushing (and if you must flush, use plain water, adj pH to 5., there's an excess of something. Could be the CalMag. I would not add Ca & Mg unless I saw a clearly recognisable deficiency.

'Kool Bloom' if I recall correctly is a P & K additive. Use this for 1 week, in week 6 of flowering- only.

You can ditch the rest of the magic sauces.

Check this plant problem guide, see if any of these look like the leaf damage you're seeing.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

-the water here sucks.

How do you know your water sucks? Did you have the water analysed? What were the results?

If your water comes from a modern water treatment plant, it's unlikely to have any problems. You'll probably be able to find an analysis of the muni water from that water util's website or may get a copy by simply asking for it.

 

[\x0D]

pH & ppm are OK, of course.

Is 74F your peak temp during lights on?

About 75-76 would be max.. Its 5:00 PM here now, and holding steady at 75F.

Unless your tapwater comes out of the sea, you don't need RO. You very likely wouldn't need CalMag if you were using tapwater.

Clearex is a 'magic sauce' which is known to contain sugars. Don't use this or any other sugar-containing sauce in your op.

Actually it IS very close to being from the sea.... im in a coastal area of S. Fla, where the water table is about 10 ft or so. Nasty looking orange-brown residue in the sinks and around buildings where the sprinklers hit are the norm..

I had no idea about the sugars in Clearex- Just thought it was supposed to break down the salts ( not salt) in the cubes.
Damn magic sauces!!- I really thought this was the right thing to do here!
No more Clearex for me!!
Think ill try sell a bunch of half-used magic sauce bottles on Ebay..

but if you flush from the top, you're putting those nutes deep into the rootmass. I half wonder if that's what happened here.

I havent flushed in better than 3 weeks, and only did so today because of the issue we are seeing, so doubtful thats the cause..

ppm of what is 50-600?

The runoff from the flush- According to Clearex directions, you are supposed to flush until the PPM of the runoff stops rising..

If your plants are perking up after flushing (and if you must flush, use plain water, adj pH to 5., there's an excess of something. Could be the CalMag. I would not add Ca & Mg unless I saw a clearly recognisable deficiency.

'Kool Bloom' if I recall correctly is a P & K additive. Use this for 1 week, in week 6 of flowering- only.

You can ditch the rest of the magic sauces.

Check this plant problem guide, see if any of these look like the leaf damage you're seeing.

The closest thing I can find in that guide is the pic of magnesuim deficency..

Thanks for hanging in there with me on this one, I know you must be banging your head into the wall at times , reading some of this!!

Best regards as always,
-\x0D

 

[\x0D]

Flushing isn't necessary and in fact can cause problems. If there's an accumulation of nutrient salts on the surface of your medium, if you top-flush, you can shift those concentrated nutes down into the rootzone and induce a burn. Nute salts on the top surface of media really don't hurt anything as the roots are in the bottoms of the pots- but if you flush from the top, you're putting those nutes deep into the rootmass. I half wonder if that's what happened here.

Just another thought- I WAS using a drip irrigation system, then changed over to the ebb and flood. I never saw it like this until i switched..

Possible scenario: Accumilated crap near the top of the block(from drip) has been pulled down into rootmass by the new irrigation..like you said- This only started showing up once I changed to ebb and flood... So is it possible thats what we are seeing, and hopefully the flush will help?

-\x0D

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Actually it IS very close to being from the sea.... im in a coastal area of S. Fla, where the water table is about 10 ft or so.

The only real problem in tapwater is presence of NaCl.

Nasty looking orange-brown residue in the sinks and around buildings where the sprinklers hit are the norm..

Just a bit of iron, no big deal.

I had no idea about the sugars in Clearex- Just thought it was supposed to break down the salts

Have you ever tried to remove a dried crust of nute salts? I have yet to find a solvent that will dissolve nute salts.

The runoff from the flush- According to Clearex directions, you are supposed to flush until the PPM of the runoff stops rising..

Yes, if you're going to flush, you'd keep dumping 5.8 water through the rootmass until the ppm drops to the ppm of the flush soln. The magic sauce won't help, tho.

The closest thing I can find in that guide is the pic of magnesuim deficency..

OK, what can cause an Mg def- aside from a real lack of Mg? You can bet that there's plenty of Mg in your nutes and your tapwater. Low pH (5.5 and down) can do it, but if I recall correctly, you said pH was OK.

This is handy, stolen from St0ney on gardenscure.com.

 

[\x0D]

Rut Roh- we may have found the prob!!

I have been mixing for 5.5 in the tank, and after 3-4 days ( 1/2 the tanks lifespan around here) it rises up to around 5.8 - 6.0

According to that chart 5.8 seems to be the point of convergence for everything.

Do you think the 5.5 mix has been locking out Mg?

I am using an 8-gal tank - kind of small, but has been working great so far..I dont mind changing evry 7-8 days.

Maybe I should mix for 5.8 and keep on top of PH a bit more..

So, heres my proposed plan of attack- Feel free to tell me otherwise if you have different solutions:

1. Mix at 5.8 prob starting out a bit lighter on the PPMs(1000?) until I see new growth minus spots/necrosis.

2.Upon seeing healthy new stuff, gradually increase ppms back up to 1400 over a span of 3-4 days.

Thanks again, with your help , ill eventually become W33d Baron yet!!
- the Stoney Mc Doper thread is priceless, btw!!


-\x0D

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Just return it to 1400 @ 5.8, should sort itself out from there.