All BS set aside CMH yields

is it true or not


  • Total voters
    118

bird mcbride

Well-Known Member
A ceramic metal halide or CDM runs at about 3100K. A simple halogen $2 bulb runs at 3000K.

The only reason I can "think" of in using this spectrum to "supplement" (MV)MH or HPS is to get much larger cola nubs.

I can testify that a straight HPS grow cannot compete with certain combinations of lighting.

Someday I will try the stand alone 3100K for myself:)
 

febisfebi

Well-Known Member
I see how the hood works now. It's still under glass, taxing both intensity and spectrum.

Having looked over the list of lighting you have, I'd say it's a great collection of lighting- nearly all of which is soon to be made obsolete by COB LED!

I have been looking more and more into the CXB3590. The spectrum is absolutely fantastic, and looks like it will blow anything else available out of the water, for both veg and flower, and thats not even considering the 56% power draw. I think I am convinced. But I dont have the money for a commercial COB, so if I were to go that route, I would be waiting a while for prices to come waty down. All my equipment comes from mostly my pocketbook, which is very limited, and some donations, in order to supply enough high CBD medicine to some very sick patients, So quality and yeild is important, but we are not making massive profit like most people here, and cant afford to spend thousands upon thousands, on yet another new lighting setup.
I want to start putting together single diy led pods to eventually cover the whole ceiling, spread out to achieve overlap, on my next setup. But in the mean time, I want to start adding them one by one to my current setup as I can afford the parts, and have the time to put them together. Building them one at a time should make them pretty cheap each, and I can scale up as I can afford, eventually ending up with better coverage than a panel that would require putting it all together at once.

@ttystikk are you building your own COB setup to phase out your HID lamps with? or investing in comercial COB as you can afford it?

I have found a few people building DIY COB setups, but they all seem to be building one big panel. I dont expect to have any trouble converting the designs to single led pods, the circuitry is simple enough, so it should really just be about parts.

Can you point me in the right direction where I can get the 3590's, drivers, and heat sinks at the somewhat competitive prices you were mentioning earlier from a reputable supplier? I have found a few sources, but it sounds like you have already done your homework.
How powerful/efficent/expensive of a DC power supply do we need? I am not planning on using separate power supplies for each pod, unless there is some reason to do so.

For optics, do you know where we can get a good quality, fairly priced supply of those domed focal point reflectors? Or would you suggest a different type of optic to spread the beam in the manner I am talking about to acheive overlap, with each LED.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I have been looking more and more into the CXB3590. The spectrum is absolutely fantastic, and looks like it will blow anything else available out of the water, for both veg and flower, and thats not even considering the 56% power draw. I think I am convinced. But I dont have the money for a commercial COB, so if I were to go that route, I would be waiting a while for prices to come waty down. All my equipment comes from mostly my pocketbook, which is very limited, and some donations, in order to supply enough high CBD medicine to some very sick patients, So quality and yeild is important, but we are not making massive profit like most people here, and cant afford to spend thousands upon thousands, on yet another new lighting setup.
I want to start putting together single diy led pods to eventually cover the whole ceiling, spread out to achieve overlap, on my next setup. But in the mean time, I want to start adding them one by one to my current setup as I can afford the parts, and have the time to put them together. Building them one at a time should make them pretty cheap each, and I can scale up as I can afford, eventually ending up with better coverage than a panel that would require putting it all together at once.

@ttystikk are you building your own COB setup to phase out your HID lamps with? or investing in comercial COB as you can afford it?

I have found a few people building DIY COB setups, but they all seem to be building one big panel. I dont expect to have any trouble converting the designs to single led pods, the circuitry is simple enough, so it should really just be about parts.

Can you point me in the right direction where I can get the 3590's, drivers, and heat sinks at the somewhat competitive prices you were mentioning earlier from a reputable supplier? I have found a few sources, but it sounds like you have already done your homework.
How powerful/efficent/expensive of a DC power supply do we need? I am not planning on using separate power supplies for each pod, unless there is some reason to do so.

For optics, do you know where we can get a good quality, fairly priced supply of those domed focal point reflectors? Or would you suggest a different type of optic to spread the beam in the manner I am talking about to acheive overlap, with each LED.
Talk to @Stephenj37826 about single COB fixtures. That plan has legs if you're on a budget.

I'm having my panels custom made to save cost. I'll be replacing every damned light bulb I have except the one in the bathroom! ...and maybe a T5 over the clones.
 

febisfebi

Well-Known Member
View attachment 3570608
Way more than 21sq, you don't know how they work,unless you use them...
I understand where you are coming from, but that reflector is not designed for the 21' sq footprint. it is designed to be 36" from the tops, and because of this it focuses the beam mostly straight down, which is why they are boasting better numbers than others setups. But in reality, that might give it a 10 or so square foot coverage.
I'm not trying to knock your setup, i'm sure you spent plenty of time and work setting it up, and you are obviously seeing gains over SE HPS, which is not surprising. You are right, I dont know exactly how well it works without trying it, I can only guess based on the information available about this product. I have studied this product for almost as long as the CMH, and in this case I'm not really intersted in finding out for myself, exactly how well it performs, because the design is not only inferior, it goes directly against how the lamp is meant to be used. Plus the price is outrageous, and any time you use glass, you are losing performance, period.
The fan cooling that hood, should be bringing in more fresh air, which actually gives you better cooling than cooled hoods, I have tested this. I have used cooled hoods, and since I took the fans off those, and set them up to move more air in and out of the room. running only bare bulbs, my temps are lower than ever. Plus you get more fresh air, which means more CO2, and more plant growth.
Again, you have more than enough cooling to use open focal point reflectors, and regardless if the cooled hood allows the bulb to burn at proper heat, you still have glass in front, which blocks light, degrades spectrum, and blocks out most of the UV this bulb has. On top of that, the $300 cooled hood, $100+ fan, speed contoller/ducting/reducers, etc, etc, you could have easily bought a second light, and then you would have proper coverage at 1000umol/meter squared of uniform light, since you are obviously covering more than 21 sq ft, which is the max this lamp is rated for, and only when used in the manner it was designed for, in an open focal point reflector, which is more efficient than any other reflector available, and there are several reasons for this. One is, that it traps the heat around the bulb, due to its small size, keeping the operating temp at optimum, so the ballast doesnt have to try and compensate, overdriving the bulb to get proper temp. As far as light spreading eficiency it can't be beat. It works in the same way as the new Andasol I, II, and III solar power stations in Spain, but in the inverse. These power plants are simply made up of a long mirror trough, which is essentially an upside down focal point reflector, with a long boiler tube at the focal point, instead of a DE bulb. Think magnifying glass buring ants... same concept. There is more desert on this planet than anything besides ocean, so anyone who thinks solar power is inferior to fossil fuels/nuclear energy, needs to do some research.
These solar plants produce around the same output as a single reactor nuclear plant, which is why I brought it up to explain the superiority of focal point reflectors. They are very different from any other type of reflector. Dont let the small size fool you, it is to your advantage, and spreads light far more efficiently than that huge heavy awkward expensive cooled hood, or any other reflector hood, which does a lot more shading, than reflecting.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
These solar plants produce around the same output as a single reactor nuclear plant, which is why I brought it up to explain the superiority of focal point reflectors
Please note title of the thread...

Not brought, but made up. There's really no logic at all in the comparisson, seems more like female intuition lol. The towers are not the andasol power stations, which use parabolic throughs, the towers are PS10 and one or two others. All solar power plants in Spain combined are better compared to some nuclair plants but the towers you use as an argument for how great the reflectors are, generate only a fraction of the power of a nuclair plant. 11MW opposed to the roughly 500MW the smallest nuclair power generator in the US... Or the 400w per plant in NL. Which can run 24hrs a day at that capacity. The largest in the US generates 800x as much power as that fancy subsidized tower in Spain.

Obviously harvesting the power of the sun in those deserts isn't nearly as simple as you claim.

For the record, the reflectors are great, and I actually agree with much of your post. But the arguments you use to "prove" that are just a pile of BS.
 

febisfebi

Well-Known Member
@ttystikk, and @verticalgrow
Thanks guys, thats a good start. I certainly have some homework of my own to do, but any good examples, out there, like the ones posted, will help speed the process along.

Talk to @Stephenj37826 about single COB fixtures. That plan has legs if you're on a budget.

I'm having my panels custom made to save cost. I'll be replacing every damned light bulb I have except the one in the bathroom! ...and maybe a T5 over the clones.
Thank you, I will contact him. THhe plan is starting to sound better and better the more I look into it :) Thanks for the idea.
What kind of optics is your guy building into your lights? domed focal reflectors?, domed glass magnifiers?, or are they just surface mounted?
Will your lights be just 3500k 3590's or are you mixing others in there too?

Looking at the PDF, it doesnt look like any of tho 3590's have much in the UV vicinity, maybe UVA, but
Do they make a COB that outputs UVB? or are we still stuck with reptile flourescent/incandescants lamps, and/or other mfr's led's for that?
If so, Philips has a new model "TL-20" t12 flourescent lamp I am considering for this, that puts out all UVB, for about $50 per 40w tube, that I wanted to get your opinion on. check out the spectrum, on each of the links below. they make a broadband, and narrowband, both directly focused in the true UVB band of 280-315, nm instead of the reptile bulbs which are max 10% uvb, and 30% uva, and the rest, who knows.

http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/lamps/special-lamps/medical-lamps/medical-therapy-uvb-broad-band/uvb-broadband-tl/928010001201_EU/product

http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/special-lighting/medical-lamps/medical-therapy-uvb-narrow-band/uv-b-narrowband-tl/928010000101_EU/product

The problem is, like any reptile UVB lamp they are only good for 600 hours, which I believe is even less than reptile bulbs, reptile bulbs are supposed to be good for 6 months max, but I'm not sure what type of light cycle reptiles need, but I would assume they dont like 24hrs of light, because thats just not natural.
 

TheChemist77

Well-Known Member
at boulderlamp, the new 315 watt cdl's available in feb.2016 will or can include led lighting added to the reflectors. it will increase the coverage and add uv spectrum.. i will be buying the led add on kit for 1 or 2 of my cmh lamps as soon as they are available.. they have been testing different leds they say by feb it should be available... i dont know much about led but i do know the addition of led to the cmh should be really nice..please look it up and tell me what you think at www.boulderlamp.com
 

febisfebi

Well-Known Member
Please note title of the thread...

Not brought, but made up. There's really no logic at all in the comparisson, seems more like female intuition lol. The towers are not the andasol power stations, which use parabolic throughs, the towers are PS10 and one or two others. All solar power plants in Spain combined are better compared to some nuclair plants but the towers you use as an argument for how great the reflectors are, generate only a fraction of the power of a nuclair plant. 11MW opposed to the roughly 500MW the smallest nuclair power generator in the US... Or the 400w per plant in NL. Which can run 24hrs a day at that capacity. The largest in the US generates 800x as much power as that fancy subsidized tower in Spain.

Obviously harvesting the power of the sun in those deserts isn't nearly as simple as you claim.

For the record, the reflectors are great, and I actually agree with much of your post. But the arguments you use to "prove" that are just a pile of BS.
I apologize, I never claimed to be an expert on the Andasol plants. I only brought it up to explain how the focal point reflectors work, and why they are diffferent than others.
You are absolutely right, the andasol plants produce 50mw each. They must only use one turbine on each plant, as the turbine spec's on the andasol plants are 49.9 mw each. they should really scale it up.
My information on that specifically, came from a quick search of "andasol output vs nuclear"
The numbers I was looking at, upon closer examination, were actually for the the Ivanpah solar plant, in the mohave desert, which had an original planned output of 440mw (which was later scaled back to 392mw to preserve the habitat of desert turtles in the area. which I was comparing to a single fission reactor plant.
sorry for the confusion, I am 100% self taught with everything I know and do, so please feel free to correct me if I have misread something or stumbled across misinformation. I dont always have time to read the entire hundred page spec sheet, in detail on such things, especially when they are so far off topic. But I do not make shit up, I want to be clear about that.
Now lets get back on topic. lol
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
i dont know much about led but i do know the addition of led to the cmh should be really nice..please look it up and tell me what you think at www.boulderlamp.com
I think that is another good addition to the available options for lighting, one I've been considering for a while. Run the cmh for veg (on 4x4') and switch on the leds during flower. Still get the temps I want without additional climate control, more control over spectrum. Mixing mh or cmh with hps uniformly is not doable with just a couple of bulbs, while hid combined with led allows for more control (those leds ideally cover the 4x4 uniformly as well as the cmh, so they overlap entirely, instead of having cmh in the center and growing under led along the edges).
 

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
That's exactly what I want,that drone type LED rig,that fits right on most any air cooled hood..... @Greengenes707 im ready to click buy on something like this,if it was to ever pop up.
I won't be making it, but I have been asked recently about the concepts. To me it's over kill and/or a waste with big sodiums.
It may have a place with a 315 LEC and then a COB pontoon setup to get you to ~700w over an area. Maybe even high CRI pontoons.

For me cobs give the horse power, and great quality. But if trying to squeeze more out of them...toss some UVB on them.

You want something like this(uvb saddle) but with cobs...
IMG_4802.jpg
 

swagslayer420

Well-Known Member
@swagslayer420 I still dont know why anyone would want to use anything but an open reflector. those cooled reflectors may be made in the USA and have nice build quality, but they are also expensive, and have some serious design flaws. besides not having the advantage of being placed in the focal point, you have glass in front, and are wasting moneyand power on fans, speed controllers, and other expensive gear including the ~$300 reflector that is only hurting your performance. you have more than enough cooling to run them open, you say you want to run it closer to the plants? why is that? you are just going to over saturate the plant right below it, and the others will not have proper coverage. these lights are meant to be mounted real high, and cover 21 square feet each. they are able to do this at 1000umol/square meter, which is where you will see the best performance.

@genuity that video does not prove anything. I have found other reviews that show way higher numbers with the cooled reflector. This is because they are testing it at 36" in a small footprint, so the numbers mean nothing. of course your going to get higher numbers the closer you go to the light with your meter. But to your garden you are going to end up focusing a beam meant to cover 21square feet, in a small area, so the plant right underneath will be over saturated, and the rest will be sitting outside the focused beam. This is going to hurt all your plants, not just the ones witout proper light coverage, but also the one directly underneath will get fried, not from heat, with the coooled reflector, but from too much light in one small area.
Dont believe everything you read or hear. even with expensive testing equipment, the tests are meaningless when the lamps are used in configurations other than they were designed for.


Okay, thank you. I was looking real hard for some kind of comparison, and trying everywhere I could think of to find out a rough idea of the PPFD of the plantmax DE. The best I could come up with though was a hydrofarm (I believe) sponsored "test" that supposedly was comparing 8 or so DE bulbs/configurations available, and guess what they show as coming out on top. The 8" cooled ac/de reflector, supposedly has highest PAR output which I dont believe for a second. They also show gavita/philips, almost as low as plantmax, being about half the PAR output, of hydrofarm products. This entire study is obviously total bullshit, and I dont know why they are knocking their own product, but they obviously just want to sell the most expensive bulb/driver period, without losing cutomers to gavita/philips once they realize they will be spending a fortune regardless, if they want "quality" DE tech. I was trying to find the study again, so you all could see how ridiculous the information they are trying to push is getting, but I cant seem to pull it up again, and im not going to waste any more time looking for it, just to spread misinformation, lol. I'm still not convinced the plantmax DE is crap, and could potentially be the last $60 I need to buy for this setup, as opposed to the $125 philips, which could mean more money for my next project, which will be COB.
to each there own, I am happy with my set-up didn't buy it to please you and seen it first hand over multiple runs its performance beats out most lighting on the market today I never said I want to get it close I keep it 30-36 inchs off the canopy.
 

swagslayer420

Well-Known Member
I won't be making it, but I have been asked recently about the concepts. To me it's over kill and/or a waste with big sodiums.
It may have a place with a 315 LEC and then a COB pontoon setup to get you to ~700w over an area. Maybe even high CRI pontoons.

For me cobs give the horse power, and great quality. But if trying to squeeze more out of them...toss some UVB on them.

You want something like this(uvb saddle) but with cobs...
View attachment 3570789
that uvb saddle is sick when can you manufacture a rig for 315 LEC set-up that would be a hot seller on PLC!
 

swagslayer420

Well-Known Member
I see how the hood works now. It's still under glass, taxing both intensity and spectrum.

Having looked over the list of lighting you have, I'd say it's a great collection of lighting- nearly all of which is soon to be made obsolete by COB LED!
I am testing 7 area 51 w90's 3000k right now and don't see this beating a DE anytime soon in yield only thing its beating is less heat output but power cost 6 cents a Killawatt... I am impress with induction lighting thus far
 

swagslayer420

Well-Known Member
View attachment 3570608
Way more than 21sq, you don't know how they work,unless you use them...
Thank you!!!!! @genuity..... people love to troll on here and don't own and test gear, how he keep typing and I am looking at led cobs in gorilla tent and DE in the other and see whats going on for my own eyes and the comparison of each plant, DE Produces the biggest nugs i've ever seen.
 

bird mcbride

Well-Known Member
Please note title of the thread...

Not brought, but made up. There's really no logic at all in the comparisson, seems more like female intuition lol. The towers are not the andasol power stations, which use parabolic throughs, the towers are PS10 and one or two others. All solar power plants in Spain combined are better compared to some nuclair plants but the towers you use as an argument for how great the reflectors are, generate only a fraction of the power of a nuclair plant. 11MW opposed to the roughly 500MW the smallest nuclair power generator in the US... Or the 400w per plant in NL. Which can run 24hrs a day at that capacity. The largest in the US generates 800x as much power as that fancy subsidized tower in Spain.

Obviously harvesting the power of the sun in those deserts isn't nearly as simple as you claim.

For the record, the reflectors are great, and I actually agree with much of your post. But the arguments you use to "prove" that are just a pile of BS.
I suggested using a big ass magnifying glass and a boiler to help power the International space station:)
 
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