This is gonna get interesting! Militia takes over Ore. federal building after protest.

[Rob Roy]

Nope nope nope. Hitler did not rise to power because the German people had been trained in obedience to the state through the Prussian school system. Prussia was only part of Germany, the north eastern part. Parts of Prussia had been lost due to the Treaty of Versailles. By the time Hitler came to power, Germany was comprised of Prussia, Bavaria, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Oldenburg, Anhalt, Baden, Brunswick, Hesse, Lippe, Mecklenberg-Strelitz, Saxe-Coburg, Saxony, Schaumburg-Lippe, Thuringia, Waldeck-Pyrmont, Wurttemburg, Bremen, Hamburg, and Lubeck. All of these were independent nations that formed the German Empire in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian war.

The Prussian education system was actually a great boon to Prussia which led it to military and economic excellence since Frederick the Great introduced it.

I'm afraid you refuted a point I wasn't trying to make, didn't refute the ones I DID make and then you came thru and made a point for my argument. ... That the Prussian education system breeds obedience.

The methods of the Prussian King, which later were employed on a grander scale in a larger area, was to employ a school system which bred unthinking obedience to the state. How ELSE do you think the German people became so obedient that they turned their neighbors in routinely and in large part turned a blind eye to the Jewish holocaust. IT WAS STATE INSTILLED OBEDIENCE! (sorry for shouting, but you need to hear that point)

The "great boon you speak of did not benefit the Prussian or German people, it created a benefit to the self proclaimed leaders and was (still is) instrumental in continuing their grip on power. You confused a victory for the rulers as some kind of victory for the people being ruled. Not the same thing.

 

[Fogdog]

Decemberists singer's #BundyEroticFanFic taunts Oregon militants

If you can't join them, poke fun at them:
http://www.oregonlive.com/geek/2016/01/decemberists_colin_meloy_start.html

"They huddled together for warmth. The cold of Ammon's Ruger 22 against Brian's naked thigh sent a thrill up his spine."

"Brian leaned in and softly whispered "Ammon, we are out of snacks""

"Ooh my... you fellers sure put the 'men' in Amendment."

Too funny this

 

[pnwmystery]

I'm afraid you refuted a point I wasn't trying to make, didn't refute the ones I DID make and then you came thru and made a point for my argument. ... That the Prussian education system breeds obedience.

The methods of the Prussian King, which later were employed on a grander scale in a larger area, was to employ a school system which bred unthinking obedience to the state. How ELSE do you think the German people became so obedient that they turned their neighbors in routinely and in large part turned a blind eye to the Jewish holocaust. IT WAS STATE INSTILLED OBEDIENCE! (sorry for shouting, but you need to hear that point)

The "great boon you speak of did not benefit the Prussian or German people, it created a benefit to the self proclaimed leaders and was (still is) instrumental in continuing their grip on power. You confused a victory for the rulers as some kind of victory for the people being ruled. Not the same thing.

Except you're showing a fundamental lack of understanding of German history, one that I studied (and my family lived).

Each of the states that made up the German Empire were independent Republics, Duchies, Principalities and Kingdoms. While the German Empire ran them as a whole, they were each responsible for their own internal workings. Meaning that the Prussian education system was not a part of say the Kingdom of Bavaria's, the Kingdom of Wurttemburg's, or the Duchy of Anhalt's education system.

Moreover, if it instilled obedience to the German State, then why did the German Revolution of 1918 happen which ended the German Empire with the forced abdication of Kaiser Wilhelm II (Emperor of Germany, King of Prussia) and the creation of the Weimar Republic?

 

[Rob Roy]

Except you're showing a fundamental lack of understanding of German history, one that I studied (and my family lived).

Each of the states that made up the German Empire were independent Republics, Duchies, Principalities and Kingdoms. While the German Empire ran them as a whole, they were each responsible for their own internal workings. Meaning that the Prussian education system was not a part of say the Kingdom of Bavaria's, the Kingdom of Wurttemburg's, or the Duchy of Anhalt's education system.

Moreover, if it instilled obedience to the German State, then why did the German Revolution of 1918 happen which ended the German Empire with the forced abdication of Kaiser Wilhelm II (Emperor of Germany, King of Prussia) and the creation of the Weimar Republic?

I won't pretend to have an intimate knowledge of the various states within Germany, but I was and remain under the impression that their state approved school system was top down from the central government and predominantly used the Prussian school model and methods. If it was called something else that doesn't mean it wasn't an obedience instilling model, which was my point. My other point was it worked there, it's at work NOW in the USA. Wait and see how it turns out.


from Wikipedia...

In 1810, after the Napoleonic wars, Prussia introduced state certification requirements for teachers, which significantly raised the standard of teaching. The final examination,Abitur, was introduced in 1788, implemented in all Prussian secondary schools by 1812 and extended to all of Germany in 1871. The state also established teacher training colleges for prospective teachers in the common or elementary grades.

 

[pnwmystery]

In 1810, after the Napoleonic wars, Prussia introduced state certification requirements for teachers, which significantly raised the standard of teaching. The final examination,Abitur, was introduced in 1788, implemented in all Prussian secondary schools by 1812 and extended to all of Germany in 1871. The state also established teacher training colleges for prospective teachers in the common or elementary grades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur

What you referenced was in regards to the above - a standardized test that was required to move from secondary schooling to higher education/teaching/into the upper echelons of civil service. I can see your argument, but it's not entirely true. The Prussian education system was once again what led to Prussian dominance in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th century and the remnants of the model in Germany today also make Germany the powerhouse nation it is.

"Up until the 18th century, every German university had its own entrance examination. In 1788 Prussia introduced the Abiturreglement, a law that—for the first time within Germany—established the Abitur as an official qualification. It was later also established in the other German states. In 1834 it became the only university entrance exam in Prussia, and it remained so in all states of Germany until 2004. Since then the German state of Hesse allows also students with Fachhochschulreife (see below) to study at the universities within that state."

If anything Prussia is to blame for it's standardized testing.

 

[pnwmystery]

I mean, for the 1830s the Prussian education system was progressive as fuck. From the wikipedia article you mentioned I pulled this

• Free primary schooling, at least for poor citizens
• Professional teachers trained in specialized colleges
• A basic salary for teachers and recognition of teaching as a profession
• An extended school year to better involve children of farmers
• Funding to build schools
• Supervision at national and classroom level to ensure quality instruction
• Curriculum inculcating a strong national identity, involvement of science and technology
• Secular instruction (but with religion as a topic included in the curriculum)

Apparently it was reformed from when Frederick the Great introduced it in reaction to the Levée en masse that led to the Prussian defeat at the Battle of Jena. And yeah, there is the "inculcating a strong national identity" which leads to your argument, but the problem is that once again your argument is fundamentally flawed. If it had instilled obedience and complete obedience the German Revolution would have never had happened.

 

[Rob Roy]

I mean, for the 1830s the Prussian education system was progressive as fuck. From the wikipedia article you mentioned I pulled this

• Free primary schooling, at least for poor citizens
• Professional teachers trained in specialized colleges
• A basic salary for teachers and recognition of teaching as a profession
• An extended school year to better involve children of farmers
• Funding to build schools
• Supervision at national and classroom level to ensure quality instruction
• Curriculum inculcating a strong national identity, involvement of science and technology
• Secular instruction (but with religion as a topic included in the curriculum)

Apparently it was reformed from when Frederick the Great introduced it in reaction to the Levée en masse that led to the Prussian defeat at the Battle of Jena. And yeah, there is the "inculcating a strong national identity" which leads to your argument, but the problem is that once again your argument is fundamentally flawed. If it had instilled obedience and complete obedience the German Revolution would have never had happened.

You may want to alter your opinion after you have researched the Prussian school system and how it has been used in the USA.

The Milgram Experiment is another interesting study which points out the adherence to authority that people have. If you haven't heard of it, consider checking it out.

Also, there's no such thing as "free school" somebody pays for it.

 

[Rob Roy]

Just admit you were wrong and misunderstood the reading of the article.
and playing with your tiny pecker is not called one handed pushups

You are right pushups and peckers are two different things. However playing with my pecker requires TWO hands, pushups STILL one hand albeit not as many as in the past.

 

[pnwmystery]

You may want to alter your opinion after you have researched the Prussian school system and how it has been used in the USA.

The Milgram Experiment is another interesting study which points out the adherence to authority that people have. If you haven't heard of it, consider checking it out.

Also, there's no such thing as "free school" somebody pays for it.

I know a lot about the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prison Experiment, neither of which have anything to do with schooling. You need to read complete sentences also. I have researched the Prussian school system and how it's used in the USA. It was reformed under the Humboldt idea of science and once more this is what led to Germany becoming an incredibly powerful nation in a very short amount of time -- is it any wonder where we're at now?

Education, by virtue, teaches you to question things and this is what Humboldtian science did too. Public education is a good thing because classically and historically - and if you knew as much about politics and history as you think you do you'd know this - one of the main ways for a state to control the populace is by denying them proper education.

To say that Hitler rose to power via the Prussian education system that instills obedience to the state is a fundamentally flawed argument because the way Hitler rose to power was very complex and took a while to achieve. Moreover, by the time he took power he had already consolidated power and curbed civil rights to the point where nothing could be done. Another thing that added to him being able to do this was that there was no liberal political party that represented the middle class in Germany.

Also on your final point, of course education isn't free, public education in Germany was free to poor citizens as a means to rise them up into the middle class and thus they'd be able to pay taxes. Taxes is what drove this; Prussia was one of the first nations to introduced tax-based funding for compulsory education which made Prussians at the time some of the best educated people. All in all, there are many more good things about the Prussian education system than there were bad things (instilling a strong national identity?).

 

[Rob Roy]

I know a lot about the Milgram Experiment and the Stanford Prison Experiment, neither of which have anything to do with schooling. You need to read complete sentences also. I have researched the Prussian school system and how it's used in the USA. It was reformed under the Humboldt idea of science and once more this is what led to Germany becoming an incredibly powerful nation in a very short amount of time -- is it any wonder where we're at now?

Education, by virtue, teaches you to question things and this is what Humboldtian science did too. Public education is a good thing because classically and historically - and if you knew as much about politics and history as you think you do you'd know this - one of the main ways for a state to control the populace is by denying them proper education.

To say that Hitler rose to power via the Prussian education system that instills obedience to the state is a fundamentally flawed argument because the way Hitler rose to power was very complex and took a while to achieve. Moreover, by the time he took power he had already consolidated power and curbed civil rights to the point where nothing could be done. Another thing that added to him being able to do this was that there was no liberal political party that represented the middle class in Germany.

Also on your final point, of course education isn't free, public education in Germany was free to poor citizens as a means to rise them up into the middle class and thus they'd be able to pay taxes. Taxes is what drove this; Prussia was one of the first nations to introduced tax-based funding for compulsory education which made Prussians at the time some of the best educated people. All in all, there are many more good things about the Prussian education system than there were bad things (instilling a strong national identity?).

You said -
and if you knew as much about politics and history as you think you do you'd know this - one of the main ways for a state to control the populace is by denying them proper education.

That represents a false dichotomy, if the state gets out of the way, they are neither encouraging or denying education.



Also some of your claims above are rationalizations / utilitarian arguments and essentially claim that the means used is not part of the process, which is a demonstrable failure. Don't make me prove that one now please, it will just harsh on my buzz.

 

[pnwmystery]

More often than not, historically, when the state does not encourage education education does not happen. This is also a way of controlling the populace by keeping them dumb. The reason why we have universities and schools that are largely secular is because the state has encouraged education. Otherwise classically the only other means of gaining an education was a religious one.

I thought this was well known history lol.

 

[Rob Roy]

More often than not, historically, when the state does not encourage education education does not happen. The reason why we have universities and schools that are largely secular is because the state has encouraged education. Otherwise classically the only other means of gaining an education was a religious one.

I thought this was well known history lol.

Nice use of a euphemism. The state doesn't "encourage education". It enforces indoctrination.

The means used is evidence of the truth of what I just said above.


You know, I'm gonna have to spark up another one here real soon and hope you don't keep going because then I'll have to come back tomorrow and ask you questions you can't answer and you seem like such a nice person, misguided, but still a nice person.

 

[pnwmystery]

Nice use of a euphemism. The state doesn't "encourage education". It enforces indoctrination.

The means used is evidence of the truth of what I just said above.


You know, I'm gonna have to spark up another one here real soon and hope you don't keep going because then I'll have to come back tomorrow and ask you questions you can't answer and you seem like such a nice person, misguided, but still a nice person.

Well you know what they say: Can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Edited to add: also in my public education upbringing. Primary, secondary, and university I was constantly taught to question everything. My government and history teachers told us to question the government, get involved in politics on every level, taught us how great the anti war movement was etc. The only places that I've seen indoctrination are home schooling.

 

[Rob Roy]

Well you know what they say: Can't teach an old dog new tricks.

 

[pnwmystery]

Should read my edit also btw

 

[Rob Roy]

Well you know what they say: Can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Edited to add: also in my public education upbringing. Primary, secondary, and university I was constantly taught to question everything. My government and history teachers told us to question the government, get involved in politics on every level, taught us how great the anti war movement was etc. The only places that I've seen indoctrination are home schooling.

Can a person(s) delegate a right they do not possess?

(you DID ask for it)

 

[pnwmystery]

Can a person(s) delegate a right they do not possess?

(you DID ask for it)

I know what you're getting at and the argument is flawed from the beginning. Nor does it have anything to do with my statement.

Moreover the old dog comment was a metaphor meaning: You're too old and set in your ways for me to change your thinking.

 

[Rob Roy]

I know what you're getting at and the argument is flawed from the beginning. Nor does it have anything to do with my statement.

Moreover the old dog comment was a metaphor meaning: You're too old and set in your ways for me to change your thinking.

It almost looks like you are afraid to answer the question.

 

[pnwmystery]

It almost looks like you are afraid to answer the question.

Don't confuse fear with an unwillingness to get dragged into a philosophical debate that has a flawed premise at the beginning. It's a waste of our time.

 

[pnwmystery]

The argument has to deal with say... I don't have the right to rob my neighbor so then why does the government have the right to tax my neighbor? Well taxation and robbery are two very different things because of the social contract theory. There done with that argument.