First HID lighting and questions about hot restrike

[JMichael]

OK so I decided to do an inside tent grow with MH/HPS. I bought a Lumatek 400/250/SL dimmable ballast. When it arrived and I started reading the literature, I got my first introduction to hot restrike (what it is and why it's bad). Maybe I'm lousy at finding the info but I've finally admitted to myself that I can't find the info if it's out there. So here goes.

I keep seeing the warnings about hot restrike but have been unable to determine if it only applies to MH, or if it's a problem with HPS as well. From what I've been able to find out (haven't called the co. yet), my Lumatek doesn't have a built-in delay. I get very frequent power outages that last anywhere from hard flicker to 20 seconds, but most times it's about 5 seconds, so I had to come up with something. Well the search for a timer with a built in delay to handle the cool down time was unsuccessful, so I ordered the components and intend to build my own adjustable delay circuit to handle that. The blower will be on a separate timer so it starts cooling the bulb the instant the power comes back which should shorten the delay needed. At least that's my plan and how I hope it's going to work.

My other question is concerning wattage to use. I was thinking I would use a 250 MH in a cooltube w/ reflector for vegging 2-3 plants in a 2x3x7 or 2x4x7, and a 400 HPS for flowering. I have 180 watts worth of CFL I can add for veg and same for flower if I need more light. Any help with these questions and/or suggestions are welcome.

I'm also currently looking at how others are handling odors while lights out, and come up with some design that will work for my setup and needs. But I have a lot of searching to do on that front still.

 

[ttystikk]

I think with your power problems and low wattage requirements that you'd really be better off with a T5 fixture. No hot restrike problems, better spectrum, easier top manage plant to light distance.

Look into 8 lamp 2' units for a square pattern, or 4' units for best lamp selection.

 

[JMichael]

Hmm... 60 views and no answers, not sure what to make of that. Could be a really stupid question so no one is answering, could be that the right people haven't seen it yet, or, maybe no one else knows. I appreciate you taking the time to reply ttystikk, I'm already committed to the HPS, but I have to admit it made me chuckle a little. For my first indoor grow I decided to do a CFL stealth grow. And through all my searching and questions about doing it, I consistently ran into advice to not waste time with CFL, go with HPS. So my first real question after committing to go HPS on my next grow was this post. Low and behold, the only response so far is to not go with HPS. haha Just found the overall sequence of events funny.

 

[Stevie51]

Both the Titan Controls Hades 1 and the C.A.P. HLC-2e offers 15 minutes delay on-time. For a few dollars more the C.A.P. HLC-3e has both high temperature shut-off and 15 minutes delay on-time. For 120 volts use only. I have not use either brand and therefore can not speak of their quality, performance, or reliability.

 

[Stevie51]

@JMichael, you stated "I ordered the components and intend to build my own adjustable delay circuit". You care to share with us in detail what components you plan to use? The answer to your question is ...warnings about hot restrike does applies to both MH and HPS.

 

[jijiandfarmgang]

Hot restrike doesn't matter for gavita double ended hps. Not sure what others though.

I had one of those cap 15 minute delay timers. I'm pretty sure it broke like every other Cap thing I owned.

- Jiji

 

[JMichael]

@JMichael, you stated "I ordered the components and intend to build my own adjustable delay circuit". You care to share with us in detail what components you plan to use? The answer to your question is ...warnings about hot restrike does applies to both MH and HPS.

I intend to use a timer relay to set the amount of delay and it will be controlling a power relay.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ARBSRDY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DN32YOG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00

I'm opting to use a timer relay in conjunction with a power relay, that should handle up to two separate 5 amp loads continuous, (only need a single 3.5 - 4 right now).

 

[JMichael]

Both the Titan Controls Hades 1 and the C.A.P. HLC-2e offers 15 minutes delay on-time. For a few dollars more the C.A.P. HLC-3e has both high temperature shut-off and 15 minutes delay on-time. For 120 volts use only. I have not use either brand and therefore can not speak of their quality, performance, or reliability.

Thanks, I hadn't found anything like that in my searching. Guess I just wasn't using the right keywords. Strange that they don't seem to show what sort of amp load rating though.

 

[Stevie51]

The answer to your question is ...warnings about hot restrike does applies to both MH and HPS.

Edit: After searching the web this weekend it is my understanding that the cool down time required after a power interruption to prevent hot re-strike is between 2 to 5 minutes for HPS bulbs (recent technology has now improve the re-strike time to 1 minute for HPS bulbs), and between 10 to 20 minutes for traditional probe-start MH bulbs, and between 4 to 5 minutes for pulse-start MH bulbs. Please be advised that I am a noob on this subject and comments are always welcome.

 

[JMichael]

Well, again that is more than I've been able to find when it comes to HPS. I have found a lot on MH though and based on that, I decided to go with a cool tube as much for faster cooldown as I did for heat control. Do you happen to have a link or remember what website you found that info on? Based on what I read, I think I can get my restrike down to 10 minutes max by having the fan come on instantly, so that the airflow over the bulb will cool it much faster. I hope that logging complaints with the power company about the sub par service will have a positive effect some day, but this situation has been going on for years, so I'm not real hopeful there. I feel pretty certain that they are crashing a lot of computers and hopeful that other residents in the area will be applying pressure to the power company as well.

As far as the pulse-start bulbs having faster restart times, I thought I read that that was a European style and not the common type found in the US. But even if not, I've already purchased a Lumatek digital ballast so it won't mater for me even if I'm wrong on that count.

 

[vostok]

OK so I decided to do an inside tent grow with MH/HPS. I bought a Lumatek 400/250/SL dimmable ballast. When it arrived and I started reading the literature, I got my first introduction to hot restrike (what it is and why it's bad). Maybe I'm lousy at finding the info but I've finally admitted to myself that I can't find the info if it's out there. So here goes.

I keep seeing the warnings about hot restrike but have been unable to determine if it only applies to MH, or if it's a problem with HPS as well. From what I've been able to find out (haven't called the co. yet), my Lumatek doesn't have a built-in delay. I get very frequent power outages that last anywhere from hard flicker to 20 seconds, but most times it's about 5 seconds, so I had to come up with something. Well the search for a timer with a built in delay to handle the cool down time was unsuccessful, so I ordered the components and intend to build my own adjustable delay circuit to handle that. The blower will be on a separate timer so it starts cooling the bulb the instant the power comes back which should shorten the delay needed. At least that's my plan and how I hope it's going to work.

My other question is concerning wattage to use. I was thinking I would use a 250 MH in a cooltube w/ reflector for vegging 2-3 plants in a 2x3x7 or 2x4x7, and a 400 HPS for flowering. I have 180 watts worth of CFL I can add for veg and same for flower if I need more light. Any help with these questions and/or suggestions are welcome.

I'm also currently looking at how others are handling odors while lights out, and come up with some design that will work for my setup and needs. But I have a lot of searching to do on that front still.

Waiting for that Mh bulb to restart has always been my bitch,

for that ..I now veg under a bank of T5's 4 feet long, on a rack of 4-8 tubes

most of the time they veg well under just 4 T5 tubes

the initial cost is high but pay out in time with far less heat and running costs

you can start under the T5 from germing onward even budding under later

you will find in time the 250w Mh is more heat than light, and with a bunch of cfls on an array

its the best way to go until the T5's arrive.

another is to put your 250w Mh on an inverter 24vdc so when the power goes ur light stays on the inverter

the inverter is on constant charge to a pair of car batteries

good luck

 

[jijiandfarmgang]

If its that big of deal, why the hang up on MH?

I mean they have some benefits, but they are not required at all for a good grow.

- Jiji

 

[JMichael]

If its that big of deal, why the hang up on MH?

I mean they have some benefits, but they are not required at all for a good grow.

- Jiji

I'm not sure I'm "hung up" on anything, although I am committed at this point to at least try hps. I'm aware there are people out there using different types of lighting for veg vs flower. That being said, I was under the impression that most small personal use type growers were using MH in conjunction with HPS. I intend to grow a couple of plants at a time and 1 or possibly 2 grows a year. I'm not going to have a separate veg n flower areas. It seems to me that setting up both light systems in the same small grow area would require some creative thinking and a lot of extra work and money vs just changing out a bulb. Changing out a bulb also seems to be the least expensive option that I've seen so far, and expense is definitely a consideration for me. I understand I'm not looking at the "best", but from what I've read, people have been using MH/HPS setups for a long time and done quite well with it based on what I'm reading. So I guess the reasons I'm "hung up" if indeed I am, are limited space, cost, and simplicity, to name a few.

As for setting up a backup power for the lights, that seems like a lot of expense for limited benefits if a simple delay restart will solve the potential for a hot restrike and any problems that would be caused by a hot restrike. In my limited experience with inverters (I own a small one and a friend has a larger one), they seem to have a power up delay, so that would require they be powered up all the time. Then there is the mater of a switching device, to switch the ballast from wall power to inverter power, and a couple of marine batteries, (automotive batteries would likely have a short life in this environment). A single battery would cost about 6 times what components to build a delay restart cost.

 

[Stevie51]

I intend to use a timer relay to set the amount of delay and it will be controlling a power relay.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00ARBSRDY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DN32YOG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00

I'm opting to use a timer relay in conjunction with a power relay, that should handle up to two separate 5 amp loads continuous, (only need a single 3.5 - 4 right now).

It is often said in many trades that "one should use the correct tool for the job". This rule also apply when selecting the correct relay or contactor to use for HID lighting. It is my understanding that lighting ballasts are generally considered to be inductive loads and thus will require a relay or contactor that is rated to handle the inductive amps of the load. Although electricians who do commercial installation of HID lighting are bound by their profession to use contactors that are HID ballast rated in amps, it is the general consensus in the RIU forums that a definite purpose contactor that is rated in inductive amps (or FLA amps because electric motors are also inductive loads) would be sufficient to handle HID lighting loads for grow room lighting. The problem with using general purpose ice-cube relays is that their contacts are rated in resistive load amps. Unless the manufacturer has specified the inductive amp rating of the contacts, it would at best to not allow the ballast load amps to exceed half of the resistive amps rating of the contacts to avoid premature failure of the contacts from pitting or welding together the contacts due to arcing. Please be advised that I am not an electrician by trade on this subject and comments are always welcome.

 

[jijiandfarmgang]

What I was trying to say is that you can grow quality plants using hps only.

Trust me I know.

- Jiji

 

[ttystikk]

What I was trying to say is that you can grow quality plants using hps only.

Trust me I know.

- Jiji

I have vegged and bloomed under HPS for years and other than lankiness there's no problem.

@JMichael I said it above and others have echoed my thoughts; if the power sucks in your area, DON'T run HID or you'll never get a good night's sleep. At the very low wattages you're planning they're a waste anyway.

So in other words, why the hangup on HPS/MH? NEITHER of them are any kind of a superior light source, far from it.

 

[JMichael]

It is often said in many trades that "one should use the correct tool for the job". This rule also apply when selecting the correct relay or contactor to use for HID lighting. It is my understanding that lighting ballasts are generally considered to be inductive loads and thus will require a relay or contactor that is rated to handle the inductive amps of the load. Although electricians who do commercial installation of HID lighting are bound by their profession to use contactors that are HID ballast rated in amps, it is the general consensus in the RIU forums that a definite purpose contactor that is rated in inductive amps (or FLA amps because electric motors are also inductive loads) would be sufficient to handle HID lighting loads for grow room lighting. The problem with using general purpose ice-cube relays is that their contacts are rated in resistive load amps. Unless the manufacturer has specified the inductive amp rating of the contacts, it would at best to not allow the inductive load amps to exceed half of the resistive amps rating of the contacts to avoid premature failure of the contacts from pitting or welding together the contacts due to arcing. Please be advised that I am not an electrician by trade on this subject and comments are always welcome.

Like you, I'm not an electrician by trade, but I do have some experience in the field. I was unaware of the concern over "inductive vs resistive" loads but I've always been fond of the "safe vs sorry" mentality. For that reason, I went with a power relay that is rated at 2.5 x the amp rating of my ballast, which will be the only load on my delay timer setup.

What I was trying to say is that you can grow quality plants using hps only.

Trust me I know.

- Jiji

I was completely unaware of this, and I'm very interested in learning more about it. Are there any good sources of info on this that you would recommend to educate me on this? Do you have any post or personal recommendations for how to set that up, like a particular bulb as in temp range?

I have vegged and bloomed under HPS for years and other than lankiness there's no problem.

@JMichael I said it above and others have echoed my thoughts; if the power sucks in your area, DON'T run HID or you'll never get a good night's sleep. At the very low wattages you're planning they're a waste anyway.

So in other words, why the hangup on HPS/MH? NEITHER of them are any kind of a superior light source, far from it.

As I said above, I'm "committed" to trying HPS at this point for the reasons I listed in my last post and the fact that I've already purchased the ballast and other items for going this route. As for being "hung up" on this method, it's just the method I chose based on my research into growing (even if flawed), my expectations, and my personal situation and resources. I didn't choose this because I think it's superior. The research I did led me to believe it was the best choice for what I plan to do now and possibly do in the near future, under the circumstances.

As I already said in this post, I was unaware you could veg with HPS and I'm excited at the prospect that I don't need to worry about MH. That's one less headache, and less expense to get started. I've already got some CFL on hand that I could use to possibly help with the lankiness. So no added expense other than power to do that.

What is/are the reason/s for not getting a good nights sleep? Is it because of the fire hazard potentially cause by restrike, damage to equipment, damage to crops or what?


I'd like to thank you all for taking the time to reply and for helping educate me. I truly appreciate it.

 

[JMichael]

I have vegged and bloomed under HPS for years and other than lankiness there's no problem.

As stated earlier, I was not aware of this, so it was welcomed news for me. Since no one replied to my inquiry about whether one hps bulb was better suited to doing both veg and flower, I went bulb shopping. I've come to the conclusion that most hps bulbs apparently come in 2000 - 2100 K. Next thing to consider was which brand. Well my research has led me to believe that most people that have used and Eye Hortalux have given it high marks. And since I only need to purchase one bulb, I decided to take the money saved from not buying a MH and purchase a "better grade" of HPS. My conclusions may be in error, but I ordered an Hortilux Super HPS Enhanced Spectrum bulb. I also have 6 x 6500k CFL's (175w total), that I can place around the grow to hopefully help with the lankiness during veg. Now, I'm off to find a light fixture, inline fan, and carbon filter.

 

[LOFT]

What I was trying to say is that you can grow quality plants using hps only.

Trust me I know.

- Jiji

Same with me...
Just use a dual spectrum bulb