Water in Flint and other general problems in our political environ

[Fogdog]

They're talking 40 man crew coming down from Lansing and they can do 2 homes per day, I don't know how many crews they have in Flint
But just running the numbers I do have:

40 x 2 = 80 @ day
80 x 5 = 400@week
400 x 50 = 20,000 homes @ year

I used 50 weeks as my guide because of Holidays and such.
I have no idea how many homes need to be done.

Now using FP's idea of having water stations they can do like they did during the oil embargo odd/even addresses, 50 gallons per 10,000 gallon tanker that's 200 homes @day. ( cooking, drink water, wash clothes) it will be hard but doable or use other towns with clean water for bathing. Gyms, firehouses, bathhouses or Churches.

B4L

The crisis in Flint illustrates the high cost of cost reduction gone bad. As @Flaming Pie pointed out, this disaster was not inevitable if the Flint River water had been properly treated. I'm talking about more than the $100/day cost of phosphate-treatment but also clean-up to remove other pollutants. It wouldn't have been cheap but so is the cost of doing it wrong. Cannot trust politicians with this kind of engineering, which is the only way this could have happened. There is no way the conversion to Flint River water was given a green light by staff engineers..

Projected cost savings at the beginning of the use of Flint River water: $5,000,000 over 2 years

Costs due to lead exposure and mitigation:

Replacing pipes, estimates vary wildly:
- my estimate: 20,000 homes at minimum cost of $3000 per install = $60,000,000 to replace pipes by pulling out old and replacing with new (Lansing cost numbers);
- Democratic senators from MI are submitting a bill that budgets $400,000,000 to replace pipes, I wonder where that number came from?
- MI has budgeted $55,000,000 to replace pipes, low balling again? In any case, this has not yet been approved in MI legislature.

Societal cost due to lead exposure in children;
Annual cost of childhood lead exposure in Michigan is $300M before this episode began (Risk Science Center at the University of Michigan):
Cost to population in Flint is not published anywhere,
Total costs of lead poisoning of children include,
decreases in lifetime earnings,
additional criminal justice system expenditures,
health expenditures to diagnose and lead positioning and lead-linked attention deficit disorder
additional special education expenditures

So, let me do a back of the envelope calculation:
- 2010, percent of MI children with elevated lead in blood = 2.4% (10 yr avg est.) ; Number of children 18 yrs and under = 2.2M;
- number of children with elevated lead in blood = 52,000 children est. 18 yrs and under
- Cost per year = 300M; cost per child per year = $5800/yr est.
- percent of children in Flint affected by elevated lead in blood = 4% (prior to this, Flint/Genesee county was among the lowest grouping for lead exposure)
Number of children (5 yrs and under) affected in Flint and back of envelope cost estimate:
- 99000 total population * 8% children 5 yrs and under * 4% children with elevated lead in blood = 320 children under 5 yrs of age
- Lifetime cost of Flint River caused lead exposure to children = 320 kids * $5,800/yr * 70 years = $130,000,000 lifetime cost est.

Inital cost estimates: 60M to replace pipes + $130M total cost from poisoning Flint children = $200M rough number with +/-$100M due to error.

In any case, that $5M projected water cost savings ended up costing between $100M to $300M. Not to mention the intangible and immense hardship placed upon the families in Flint.

Those same senators that budgeted $400M in a bill in US Congress to replace lead pipes also budgeted $200M for "immediate and long-term health care needs of people who may have ingested the lead". Seems that the senators do back of the envelope calculations too. This makes me wonder how far off was the budget of $55M to replace Flint City lead pipes that Michigan lawmakers have yet to fund.

But Republicans in Congress are skeptical that it can be funded.

"I think we need to be careful here because while we all have sympathy for what's happened in Flint, this is primarily a local and state responsibility," Sen. John Cornyn of Texas, the No. 2 Senate Republican told reporters in the Capitol. "Given the fact that we have about 19 trillion in debt I think it's fair to ask do we want to have the federal government replacing all the infrastructure put in place by cities and states all across the country."

Does this not sound like Snyder and his rat pack all over again? Once again, we see how focusing and prioritizing cost reduction misses the whole point of government. And done wrong ends up costing more than doing nothing.

Didn't somebody important once describe government -- our government "of the people, by the people, and for the people"?

 

[NLXSK1]

Go back and listen to the press conference the cost is $55 million
they already did it in Lansing.

B4L

Great, they got the volume discount pricing... Who is going to pay for it?

 

[Flaming Pie]

The crisis in Flint illustrates the high cost of cost reduction gone bad. As @Flaming Pie pointed out, this disaster was not inevitable if the Flint River water had been properly treated. I'm talking about more than the $100/day cost of phosphate-treatment but also clean-up to remove other pollutants. It wouldn't have been cheap but so is the cost of doing it wrong. Cannot trust politicians with this kind of engineering, which is the only way this could have happened. There is no way the conversion to Flint River water was given a green light by staff engineers..

Projected cost savings at the beginning of the use of Flint River water: $5,000,000 over 2 years

Costs due to lead exposure and mitigation:

Replacing pipes, estimates vary wildly:
- my estimate: 20,000 homes at minimum cost of $3000 per install = $60,000,000 to replace pipes by pulling out old and replacing with new (Lansing cost numbers);
- Democratic senators from MI are submitting a bill that budgets $400,000,000 to replace pipes, I wonder where that number came from?
- MI has budgeted $55,000,000 to replace pipes, low balling again? In any case, this has not yet been approved in MI legislature.

Societal cost due to lead exposure in children;
Annual cost of childhood lead exposure in Michigan is $300M before this episode began (Risk Science Center at the University of Michigan):
Cost to population in Flint is not published anywhere,
Total costs of lead poisoning of children include,
decreases in lifetime earnings,
additional criminal justice system expenditures,
health expenditures to diagnose and lead positioning and lead-linked attention deficit disorder
additional special education expenditures

So, let me do a back of the envelope calculation:
- 2010, percent of MI children with elevated lead in blood = 2.4% (10 yr avg est.) ; Number of children 18 yrs and under = 2.2M;
- number of children with elevated lead in blood = 52,000 children est. 18 yrs and under
- Cost per year = 300M; cost per child per year = $5800/yr est.
- percent of children in Flint affected by elevated lead in blood = 4% (prior to this, Flint/Genesee county was among the lowest grouping for lead exposure)
Number of children (5 yrs and under) affected in Flint and back of envelope cost estimate:
- 99000 total population * 8% children 5 yrs and under * 4% children with elevated lead in blood = 320 children under 5 yrs of age
- Lifetime cost of Flint River caused lead exposure to children = 320 kids * $5,800/yr * 70 years = $130,000,000 lifetime cost est.

Inital cost estimates: 60M to replace pipes + $130M total cost from poisoning Flint children = $200M rough number with +/-$100M due to error.

In any case, that $5M projected water cost savings ended up costing between $100M to $300M. Not to mention the intangible and immense hardship placed upon the families in Flint.

Those same senators that budgeted $400M in a bill in US Congress to replace lead pipes also budgeted $200M for "immediate and long-term health care needs of people who may have ingested the lead". Seems that the senators do back of the envelope calculations too. This makes me wonder how far off was the budget of $55M to replace Flint City lead pipes that Michigan lawmakers have yet to fund.

But Republicans in Congress are skeptical that it can be funded.

"I think we need to be careful here because while we all have sympathy for what's happened in Flint, this is primarily a local and state responsibility," Sen. John Cornyn of Texas, the No. 2 Senate Republican told reporters in the Capitol. "Given the fact that we have about 19 trillion in debt I think it's fair to ask do we want to have the federal government replacing all the infrastructure put in place by cities and states all across the country."

Does this not sound like Snyder and his rat pack all over again? Once again, we see how focusing and prioritizing cost reduction misses the whole point of government. And done wrong ends up costing more than doing nothing.

Didn't somebody important once describe government -- our government "of the people, by the people, and for the people"?

It would of saved money still if they had done it right.

So any people dropped the ball or forgot the ball even existed.

 

[ttystikk]

It would of saved money still if they had done it right.

So any people dropped the ball or forgot the ball even existed.

 

[Flaming Pie]

The state will have to take out a federal loan or something.

I wonder if it would be cheaper to just buy out all the home and condo owners. Give them the appraised value before this shot happened.

Then give flint back to the deer or something along those lines.

If our Congress hadn't allowed the debt to be driven up again and again they could actually do their fucking job.

Infrastructure, Security, and health care.

Would be easy to take care of the important stuff if we weren't fucking around in so many different countries and hadn't driven out the companies that employed our people.

Spending is a problem and revenue is a problem. Health care for all? It could be doable. If government wasn't such a fat cow eating up all taxes for the nonessentials or paying out the ass for lackluster performance.

I'm getting off topic... fuck the government. Whoever caused this mess, I hope they are stripped of all their assets to help pay for this mess.

Does homeowners insurance cover disasters like this?

I wish you guys wouldn't take it to the Republicans are bad talking points. I am a firm believer that one bad apple does not a barrel make... or something along those lines.

Except our government. Now there is a bad batch of apples. Oh sure.. if you dig through the rot and worms, you may find a pristine apple or two. But they seem to be far and few between.

The people though, I reject the notion that all of them are bad. Sure you have the racists and the entitled crowd but I would like to believe (or I have to believe) that people as a whole have not been blighted.

I think if we all listened a bit more to each other, we would discover there aren't many differences between us that can't be overcome.

 

[Flaming Pie]

If they hadn't fucked up/cut corners, they would of saved money.

Save a penny, lose a dollar. Or 500 million dollars.

 

[ttystikk]

The state will have to take out a federal loan or something.

I wonder if it would be cheaper to just buy out all the home and condo owners. Give them the appraised value before this shot happened.

Then give flint back to the deer or something along those lines.

If our Congress hadn't allowed the debt to be driven up again and again they could actually do their fucking job.

Infrastructure, Security, and health care.

Would be easy to take care of the important stuff if we weren't fucking around in so many different countries and hadn't driven out the companies that employed our people.

Spending is a problem and revenue is a problem. Health care for all? It could be doable. If government wasn't such a fat cow eating up all taxes for the nonessentials or paying out the ass for lackluster performance.

I'm getting off topic... fuck the government. Whoever caused this mess, I hope they are stripped of all their assets to help pay for this mess.

Does homeowners insurance cover disasters like this?

I wish you guys wouldn't take it to the Republicans are bad talking points. I am a firm believer that one bad apple does not a barrel make... or something along those lines.

Except our government. Now there is a bad batch of apples. Oh sure.. if you dig through the rot and worms, you may find a pristine apple or two. But they seem to be far and few between.

The people though, I reject the notion that all of them are bad. Sure you have the racists and the entitled crowd but I would like to believe (or I have to believe) that people as a whole have not been blighted.

I think if we all listened a bit more to each other, we would discover there aren't many differences between us that can't be overcome.

There are some glimmers of hope for you yet.

Just follow the money, because where it leads will tell all.

The reason so many of us are so militantly anti conservative is because we understand what a horrible pack of cheats, sellouts and liars they are.

And then there are a few, like myself, who understand thaddeus l the Democratic party is no different anymore and it's the system itself that's been corrupted.

You can't blame the gubmint; 99% of those folks are working hard at thankless jobs, doing the best they can for the good of all of us... but damn if those one percenters don't pop up again, and ruin it for everyone(else)!

 

[Flaming Pie]

There are some glimmers of hope for you yet.

Just follow the money, because where it leads will tell all.

The reason so many of us are so militantly anti conservative is because we understand what a horrible pack of cheats, sellouts and liars they are.

And then there are a few, like myself, who understand thaddeus l the Democratic party is no different anymore and it's the system itself that's been corrupted.

You can't blame the gubmint; 99% of those folks are working hard at thankless jobs, doing the best they can for the good of all of us... but damn if those one percenters don't pop up again, and ruin it for everyone(else)!

Glimmers of hope? You never tried to know me. And please don't patronize.

I've been here open and honest. All you had to so was ask what I thought instead of assuming.

 

[ttystikk]

Glimmers of hope? You never tried to know me. And please don't patronize.

I've been here open and honest. All you had to so was ask what I thought instead of assuming.

I've been watching your posts for some time. I know you through them, just like everyone does here.

Why ask what you think when you're so happy to share, unprompted?

I see you're making progress towards being progressive over time. Keep doing your homework, follow the money and look for clues to the big picture. I'm very, very fortunate in that I've had behind the scenes access to spectate when the Big Boys play to know what's going on. Most people are still feeling their way through the fog of deliberate misinformation about politics, economics, money and power, and most are very confused- which is, of course, the point.

I'm not patronizing you. If I didn't think you had the intellectual chops to do the work, I wouldn't waste my time chatting with you. Lord knows there's no shortage of useless schmucks on my ignore list as proof of that!

 

[Flaming Pie]

I've been watching your posts for some time. I know you through them, just like everyone does here.

Why ask what you think when you're so happy to share, unprompted?

I see you're making progress towards being progressive over time. Keep doing your homework, follow the money and look for clues to the big picture. I'm very, very fortunate in that I've had behind the scenes access to spectate when the Big Boys play to know what's going on. Most people are still feeling their way through the fog of deliberate misinformation about politics, economics, money and power, and most are very confused- which is, of course, the point.

I'm not patronizing you. If I didn't think you had the intellectual chops to do the work, I wouldn't waste my time chatting with you. Lord knows there's no shortage of useless schmucks on my ignore list as proof of that!

I see corruption on both sides. I don't think it will get better.
As long as the batters for globalization keep stepping up to the presidential plate, we are fucked. They want us all under their thumb and doing their bidding.

Then we also have Islamic organizations around the world actively pursuing a caliphate. Britain prime minister exposed that a month or two ago.

We have a government that is spending too much in ALL areas and not slowing it down even when facing a debt that's interest will cripple America in 10 years.

It's really depressing to think about. We are being fed flat out lies daily. Some can be exposed through a few min of research and some take an hour or so to find answers.

They twist statistics, omit relevant data, and flat out lie straight to our faces. They are constantly forging new links for our chains and if we don't change something soon America could very well stop being free.

 

[Rob Roy]

There are some glimmers of hope for you yet.

Just follow the money, because where it leads will tell all.

The reason so many of us are so militantly anti conservative is because we understand what a horrible pack of cheats, sellouts and liars they are.

And then there are a few, like myself, who understand thaddeus l the Democratic party is no different anymore and it's the system itself that's been corrupted.

You can't blame the gubmint; 99% of those folks are working hard at thankless jobs, doing the best they can for the good of all of us... but damn if those one percenters don't pop up again, and ruin it for everyone(else)!

Your last two sentences contradict one another.

First you correctly say it is a systemic problem.

Then you say you can't blame the gubmint. Ummm, yes you can. That "system" is the root cause.

I realize you aren't responding to me, because you are one of several people that I have pointed out contradictions to and you are not emotionally equipped to argue with me, but I do read your posts sometimes for my amusement. So in that regard I "half liked" your post, until you contradicted yourself....again.

 

[Fogdog]

Given earlier studies that spelled out the problems that were realized in 2014 and 2015 in Flint, there was no way that the conversion to Flint river water would have been green lighted by water department engineers. The evidence is starting to come out finally to show that this wasn't a fuck up at the engineering or operational level. The water department's own water quality supervisor was as direct as possible to higher ups that the city water department was not ready for the conversion. This memo was sent 8 days before water was switched over.

E-mails: Flint water plant was rushed into operation
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/flint-water-crisis/2016/02/12/e-mails-flint-water-plant-rushed-into-operation/80300220/


“I do not anticipate giving the OK to begin sending water out any time soon,” Mike Glasgow, the city's laboratory and water quality supervisor, said in an April 17, 2014, e-mail to Michigan Department of Environmental Quality official Mike Prysby.

“If water is distributed from this plant in the next couple of weeks, it will be against my direction. I need time to adequately train additional staff and to update our monitoring plans before I will feel we are ready."

The need for adding corrosion controlling chemicals to Flint River water spelled out in a study in 2011. The record is clear that there was no provision for adding phosphate to the water before the switch. Given the tone and activism shown in his memo, it's certain that Glasgow and other professionals on staff in MDEQ and Flint water water quality department were shut out from the group that had oversight to the conversion.

"Other records released by the state indicate that the Flint water treatment plant only obtained a construction permit to install equipment to add phosphates to the water in late October 2015 and installation was to begin Nov. 9.

There were other indications the switch to Flint River water — timed to meet a one-year termination notice for Detroit water service — was hurried.

In March 2014, a state Treasury Department official reluctantly approved a $676,300 construction contract to help prepare the water plant for operation"

That "one year termination notice" referred to above was bogus. Detroit offered to ensure Flint had clean water well before the Flint River water valve was opened in a ceremony on April 25, 2014.

This is what happens when advice and warnings from scientists and engineers are ignored in a project that affects the health and safety of the population. This kind of crisis will repeat as long as the party that gave us the line "Brownie you are doing a heck of a job" holds power.

 

[Fogdog]

I see corruption on both sides. I don't think it will get better.
As long as the batters for globalization keep stepping up to the presidential plate, we are fucked. They want us all under their thumb and doing their bidding.

Then we also have Islamic organizations around the world actively pursuing a caliphate. Britain prime minister exposed that a month or two ago.

We have a government that is spending too much in ALL areas and not slowing it down even when facing a debt that's interest will cripple America in 10 years.

It's really depressing to think about. We are being fed flat out lies daily. Some can be exposed through a few min of research and some take an hour or so to find answers.

They twist statistics, omit relevant data, and flat out lie straight to our faces. They are constantly forging new links for our chains and if we don't change something soon America could very well stop being free.

You seem to be willing to blame our government as though its some remote monolithic organization. In fact, its our government. A lot of the problems you cite can be laid at the feet of lobbyist with big money and unlimited access to power.

The population of the US was outraged over the scandals that led to economic collapse in 2008 yet lobbyists from Wall Street managed to keep the system that works so well for them intact. Defense industry, ditto, just try to cut a project and see what hue and cry comes from their media machine.

"They twist statistics" Do you know who "they" are? Its lobbyist groups fighting those with knowlege. These folks don't have to flat out lie, they sow seeds of doubt. Witness the climate change debate. Practically all the misinformation comes from one or two lobbying groups -- the George C. Marshall Institute and Heartland Institute. The professionals that know and understand this issue are outflanked by political whores that take money so that you and your children can suffer later. Not unlike the situation in Flint today.

If you feel you are being lied to then search alternate means of learning about an issue. Also, find candidates that support the necessary changes to our system so that lobbyists and other big bucks groups can't influence lawmakers as they do today.

 

[ttystikk]

You seem to be willing to blame our government as though its some remote monolithic organization. In fact, its our government. A lot of the problems you cite can be laid at the feet of lobbyist with big money and unlimited access to power.

The population of the US was outraged over the scandals that led to economic collapse in 2008 yet lobbyists from Wall Street managed to keep the system that works so well for them intact. Defense industry, ditto, just try to cut a project and see what hue and cry comes from their media machine.

"They twist statistics" Do you know who "they" are? Its lobbyist groups fighting those with knowlege. These folks don't have to flat out lie, they sow seeds of doubt. Witness the climate change debate. Practically all the misinformation comes from one or two lobbying groups -- the George C. Marshall Institute and Heartland Institute. The professionals that know and understand this issue are outflanked by political whores that take money so that you and your children can suffer later. Not unlike the situation in Flint today.

If you feel you are being lied to then search alternate means of learning about an issue. Also, find candidates that support the necessary changes to our system so that lobbyists and other big bucks groups can't influence lawmakers as they do today.

Exactly.

And until this structural change to our politico-economic system is in place, the problems our country faces will continue to get worse, not better.

What will it take?

 

[Fogdog]

Exactly.

And until this structural change to our politico-economic system is in place, the problems our country faces will continue to get worse, not better.

What will it take?

What will it take? More dead children from avoidable government-led fuck ups or in a larger disaster that affects more than working and poor classes. Even Hurricane Katrina didn't shake Louisiana from Republican control, so it's going to have to be a big one.

 

[ttystikk]

What will it take? More dead children from avoidable government-led fuck ups or in a larger disaster that affects more than working and poor classes. Even Hurricane Katrina didn't shake Louisiana from Republican control, so it's going to have to be a big one.

Republicans have somehow successfully managed to both take power and avoid any responsibility for what happens while they do so. I wonder how long their constituencies will tolerate that?

 

[bearkat42]

I wonder how long their constituencies will tolerate that?

Ever been thru the South?

 

[NLXSK1]

You seem to be willing to blame our government as though its some remote monolithic organization. In fact, its our government. A lot of the problems you cite can be laid at the feet of lobbyist with big money and unlimited access to power.

The population of the US was outraged over the scandals that led to economic collapse in 2008 yet lobbyists from Wall Street managed to keep the system that works so well for them intact. Defense industry, ditto, just try to cut a project and see what hue and cry comes from their media machine.

"They twist statistics" Do you know who "they" are? Its lobbyist groups fighting those with knowlege. These folks don't have to flat out lie, they sow seeds of doubt. Witness the climate change debate. Practically all the misinformation comes from one or two lobbying groups -- the George C. Marshall Institute and Heartland Institute. The professionals that know and understand this issue are outflanked by political whores that take money so that you and your children can suffer later. Not unlike the situation in Flint today.

If you feel you are being lied to then search alternate means of learning about an issue. Also, find candidates that support the necessary changes to our system so that lobbyists and other big bucks groups can't influence lawmakers as they do today.

A lobbyist waves cash under the nose of a politician and a law gets written and you blame it on the lobbyist? If government was not meddling in every facet of our lives then those greedy business bastards wouldnt have to dump large piles of cash into lobbiest accounts to manipulate politicans.

 

[ttystikk]

Ever been thru the South?

I used to live in Little Rock. I get what you're saying.

 

[red w. blue]

Exactly.

And until this structural change to our politico-economic system is in place, the problems our country faces will continue to get worse, not better.

What will it take?

I used to live in Little Rock. I get what you're saying.

Did you really live in little rock? Tell us what it was like?