Vermicompost vs. Hot Compost

[GrowerGoneWild]

Its not often you ask guru's like Jeff Lowenfell's questions.. If you dont know the guy, you should. He's written books like "Teaming with Microbes". I met the guy in person after his presentation and I had to ask him something.

Q: Whats better? vermicompost or hot compost?

(not exactly quoted)
A: Vermicompost.. It has more available nutrition than regular compost. And has 7 times more potassium available than regular compost.

 

[hyroot]

Its not often you ask guru's like Jeff Lowenfell's questions.. If you dont know the guy, you should. He's written books like "Teaming with Microbes". I met the guy in person after his presentation and I had to ask him something.

Q: Whats better? vermicompost or hot compost?

(not exactly quoted)
A: Vermicompost.. It has more available nutrition than regular compost. And has 7 times more potassium available than regular compost.

Vermicompost is with worms. A mix of worm castings and what's composted on its own in the bin. Regular Compost is not with worms. How much nutrient value depends on what you feed the worms or put in the compost pile. So there's no exact answer on nutrient value. Worm castings are better though. A better source of humus and also chitin.

Hot compost is a compost pile that hasn't broken down yet. So you don't want to use it til it's completely broken down.


That's is a great book. It's all based on Elaine Inghams work. It even says that in the beginning of the book.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

Vermicompost is with worms. A mix of worm castings and what's composted on its own in the bin. Regulat Compost is not with worms. How much nutrient value depends on what you feed the worms or put in the compost pile. So there's no exact answer on nutrient value. Worm castings are better though. A better source of humus and also chitin.

Hot compost is a compost pile that hasn't broken down yet. So you don't want to use it til it's completely broken down.


That's is a great book. It's all based on Elaine Inghams work. It even says that in the beginning of the book.

I had to say "hot composting" to distinguish between the two methods because there is a "cool" method. I understand that you should not use compost until the pile has returned to normal temps.

No mention of exact nutrient value but he says vermicompost is more "available" vs hot composting method. If you look at the book it mentions polysaccharides, carbohydrates, and proteins from worms give a bacterial advantage. P. 142

Its not all based off of Dr Inghams work, but I dont doubt the huge influence with her concepts. There's at least 40 resources mentioned on pages 207-210.

The concept I've been pushing lately is the use of worms, from composting to improving soil tilth. Worms for the win!

 

[GreenSanta]

@hyroot , I respect all the work you do and tend to agree with you, however, if I had to chose between Jeff or Hyroot I would listen to Jeff!!

 

[hyroot]

@hyroot , I respect all the work you do and tend to agree with you, however, if I had to chose between Jeff or Hyroot I would listen to Jeff!!

My point was that it was too broad of a statement. Too many variables. You can't just generalize one vs the other unless you are comparing 2 specific ones and you get them tested.

 

[GreenSanta]

basically, after the worm pooped out the compost it makes the food more readily available to plants than regular compost and also has 7 times more potassium available than regular compost. Makes vermicompost look FAR superior than hot compost.

I am not sure that its a broad statement coming from Jeff, I like to think that he compares apples with apples, he must have scientifically tested it to come out with those numbers, perhaps he might have done 2 compost piles with the exact same ingredients except one was inoculated with worms?

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

basically, after the worm pooped out the compost it makes the food more readily available to plants than regular compost and also has 7 times more potassium available than regular compost. Makes vermicompost look FAR superior than hot compost.

I am not sure that its a broad statement coming from Jeff, I like to think that he compares apples with apples, he must have scientifically tested it to come out with those numbers, perhaps he might have done 2 compost piles with the exact same ingredients except one was inoculated with worms?

You're right, I didn't include this part of the conversation. No mention of side by side trials. We have to remember that Jeff is not a scientist, he is a respected gardener with over 40 years of column advice. He has proven time and time again to dispense sound advice, even if its based off others work.

Me: How do you know its more available?.
Jeff: I know it is..

To give a specific answer like "7 times" could mean hes done some testing, or research. I'm more or less assuming this.

 

[GreenSanta]

To give a specific answer like "7 times" could mean hes done some testing, or research. I'm more or less assuming this.

I am assuming he has done testing and research. otherwise he would have simply said more, not 7 times.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

My point was that it was too broad of a statement. Too many variables. You can't just generalize one vs the other unless you are comparing 2 specific ones and you get them tested.

I agree, and "compost" is literally a VERY vague term..
I have long used both my own vermicompost, and also my amended leaf compost..
and if I had to choose?
I'd take my compost pile six days a week and twice on sundays over my EWC...
and i'd also like to stack up an amended leaf compost vs a vermicompost, and i'm fairly confident my compost is higher in both humus and NPK
either way though..
I wouldn't ever do a grow without either..
another thing too...
my compost pile is CRAWLING with worms, both natives and reds

 

[whitebb2727]

basically, after the worm pooped out the compost it makes the food more readily available to plants than regular compost and also has 7 times more potassium available than regular compost. Makes vermicompost look FAR superior than hot compost.

I am not sure that its a broad statement coming from Jeff, I like to think that he compares apples with apples, he must have scientifically tested it to come out with those numbers, perhaps he might have done 2 compost piles with the exact same ingredients except one was inoculated with worms?

The point hyroot was making is vermicompost and hot compost are broad terms. Depending on what you feed the worms and what goes into the compost could drastically change the nutrient value.

Worm castings from a place that only feeds cardboard will have less nutrition than a complex compost.

You could also reverse that statement. Complex food to the worms will be better than cardboard compost.

 

[GreenSanta]

yes I understood hyroots point but my point was that in this scenario Jeff was probably comparing compost made with identical ingredients.

 

[Organicgrow42]

@greasemonkeymann care to share some of your composting methods?

I have a pile I through all my stalks and leafs from my veggie garden. I didn't turn it and the winter hit right away. I havnt turned it or anything since then. The top is mostly still stalks and vines. Any thoughts on how to proceed? And some thoughts on composting methods and what amendments were used. Thanks!

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I am assuming he has done testing and research. otherwise he would have simply said more, not 7 times.

hmmm...
I hate to say it... but I'm feeling that's a lil exaggerative... or at the least, a lil misleading
I mean.. a compost pile can be made from damn near anything..
so sure.. a wood chip compost pile is gonna be almost devoid of typical macro nutrients..
but the last I heard.. a leaf compost by itself has higher macro values than manure does.
So even if a compost pile is 1% potassium, than that means a EWC would have to have a npk value of at least 7%
That doesn't make sense to me..
but keep in mind that's ALL just theory.. but last I heard.. EWC is like a .25/.5/.5 value..
that ain't 7 times of anything
Know whattamean verne?

 

[greasemonkeymann]

@greasemonkeymann care to share some of your composting methods?

I have a pile I through all my stalks and leafs from my veggie garden. I didn't turn it and the winter hit right away. I havnt turned it or anything since then. The top is mostly still stalks and vines. Any thoughts on how to proceed? And some thoughts on composting methods and what amendments were used. Thanks!

here you are
Let me know if you have questions
https://www.rollitup.org/t/greasemonkeys-compost-pile.893592/

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

yes I understood hyroots point but my point was that in this scenario Jeff was probably comparing compost made with identical ingredients.

There is a very specific C:N ratio for hot compost. People are making a odd scenario where vermicompost is fed with only one material, wormbin with only cardboard?. Or my favorite.. "wood compost chip pile".. Thats not hot compost. I wouldn't use wood based compost either, that will mess up the nitrogen in the soil for sure.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

So even if a compost pile is 1% potassium, than that means a EWC would have to have a npk value of at least 7%
That doesn't make sense to me..
but keep in mind that's ALL just theory.. but last I heard.. EWC is like a .25/.5/.5 value..
that ain't 7 times of anything

Keep in mind it wasn't an exact quote.. The point is that its more available, it could be that a quality potting mix with 10% added vermicompost makes it easier to unlock the potassium in the soil vs 10% hot compost. I dont think its as simple as quantity of potassium, its more of an efficient way of making potassium available.

I'm not saying that you should use one over the other because I'm not opposed to either material.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Keep in mind it wasn't an exact quote.. The point is that its more available, it could be that a quality potting mix with 10% added vermicompost makes it easier to unlock the potassium in the soil vs 10% hot compost. I dont think its as simple as quantity of potassium, its more of an efficient way of making potassium available.

I'm not saying that you should use one over the other because I'm not opposed to either material.

I got ya man
and not to beat a dead horse, but potassium is never a deficient thing in my mixes..
potassium isn't something I have an issue with normally.
in fact.. too much is a problem.
and do you mean by "hot-compost", a simple thermophilic portion of the composting? cuz all piles, assuming they are assembled correctly will go through that.
In fact even a 100% pure wood chip pile will steam like a mofo if moist

 

[hyroot]

Heres a thought on the whole thing.

Everyone puts coco in their worm bin as bedding. The coco in the worm bin breaks down faster than in a compost pile. There probably isn't coco in the compost pile. So when coco breaks down it releases potassium.

Worms break down organic material faster. Once compost is broken down it should be just as readily available. So he might have taken the term hot compost literally. As in not composted yet.

 

[whitebb2727]

hmmm...
I hate to say it... but I'm feeling that's a lil exaggerative... or at the least, a lil misleading
I mean.. a compost pile can be made from damn near anything..
so sure.. a wood chip compost pile is gonna be almost devoid of typical macro nutrients..
but the last I heard.. a leaf compost by itself has higher macro values than manure does.
So even if a compost pile is 1% potassium, than that means a EWC would have to have a npk value of at least 7%
That doesn't make sense to me..
but keep in mind that's ALL just theory.. but last I heard.. EWC is like a .25/.5/.5 value..
that ain't 7 times of anything
Know whattamean verne?
View attachment 3632797

I kind of get everything in my compost. All kind of plants and vegetation. All the stalks, stems and what not from the garden. I put manure from a couple different sources. Cardboard. Plain shredded paper. Alfafa pellets and straw. Leaves. Wood chips. Worms are in it. Little of everything.

 

[GrowerGoneWild]

I got ya man
and not to beat a dead horse, but potassium is never a deficient thing in my mixes..
potassium isn't something I have an issue with normally.
in fact.. too much is a problem.
and do you mean by "hot-compost", a simple thermophilic portion of the composting? cuz all piles, assuming they are assembled correctly will go through that

I mean a finished hot compost pile that has reached the 140F+ internal temp, and has returned to normal.

For clarity: When I say "hot", I dont mean it in the terms of nutrients, I mean it as a pile that has reached those temps and returned to normal.