a mongo frog
Well-Known Member
And they will also tell you that they were running high yielding strains.
Have any of you DIY COB Growers finished a crop under 1000W DE HPS? - POLL
- Thread starter OneHitDone
- Start date
Trippyness
Well-Known Member
I believe you mean GPW, would be great to get 2lbs a watt.
No I am saying with DE 3LBs a light I have seen consistently, 2.5 as well with less yielders.
I have seen growmau5 and greengene on YT as well as here. Love there stuff, but for commercial why would anyone invest in COBS over DE at the rates DE are pulling. Makes no sense financially
Trippyness
Well-Known Member
Not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is the electricity cost is not justified enough for the overall cost.
COBS are great for smaller grows, but not warehouses. Especially when we are talking ROI.
DE can pull 2.5-3 a light, If cobs can do that then great, but for 1500 I can get 3 DE fixtures.
So , 3 DE fixtures pulling 2.5-3lbs vs one COB...very hard to justify that in energy cost alone.
OneHitDone
Well-Known Member
Ok, so who's gonna pony up and do it?
Side A:
Sun Systems AC/DE with Phillips DE Lamp and Top Shelf Digital Ballast
Side B:
16 Cxb3590 driven at similar wattage
Partition down the middle, Same strain, same growing system, same nutrients.
Then further tests would be to back down how hard the led's are driven to truly determine the answer to the question - "how many led watts to equal 1000W hps?"
Side A:
Sun Systems AC/DE with Phillips DE Lamp and Top Shelf Digital Ballast
Side B:
16 Cxb3590 driven at similar wattage
Partition down the middle, Same strain, same growing system, same nutrients.
Then further tests would be to back down how hard the led's are driven to truly determine the answer to the question - "how many led watts to equal 1000W hps?"
BOBBY_G
Well-Known Member
yes. considering at the wall your 1000 is drawing 1100W, thats 1-1.25 GPW. i can beat that with blurples. cobs are consistently getting 1.4-2.0 gpw
and theyre getting about 10% more efficient and cost 10-20% less year over year
theyre already a better investment for anybody planning to be in it for 3 years or more. wait another year
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
I have many times already...and will continue to...
CMH 315...CX300
2 CX300...2 gavita. They are now to 5 cx300 to 2 gavita and say there is no difference in penatration or bud size except the led side always shows more color even in non-colored strains.
These are customers making their own choices on what is bringing them the best return on their investment. Not my decisions. Sure they are based off my recommendation, but these are people spending their own money to get back more in a short to mid term at most investment. There are plenty of general stories in my inbox weekly. I love to see it cause they do way better than me...and I am blown away with what I can do with them.
I am not the king of yields, no matter if it's dream or cookies. But I know what I can do in reference to the real big boys, and am not ashamed, but sure am not boasting about myself in that way. But I know the results translate. And see it personally with these guys I meet that all pull numbers that make me shake my head...with the same shit I use. Let alone what is claimed on forums.
Proof of 2000-2500$ cob fixture?
I know of a 900$+ DE setup too, but also know if a reasonable and just as good one for $400. Keep to the average or best quality for the buck if we are going to compare generals.
a mongo frog
Well-Known Member
Honestly the anwser is because of the power savings. The coverage of those COB lamps are really nice from what i have seen. And this alloys you do drop wattage out of your flower rooms. I did some math based on foot print and a certain amount of 1000 watt lamps. The math i came up with was almost 7000 dollars annually on just lights alone. I didn't calculate the A/C savings because i don't quite know how but i assume its pretty good. I did the math based on a 12k hps flower room replaced with 10 800 watt Cob fixtures based on foot print. This is all based on local power rates where i live so it could very from place to place.
Trippyness
Well-Known Member
Indeed, this is needed.
Trippyness
Well-Known Member
Thank you for supporting claims. Again, not here to bash anyone, just understand.
As for the 900 DE... thats way to much. Get the same PAR with a good hood or wing and a good ballast and a Ushio DE 2100umol.
Really nice grows by the way. I have also found there is more color with LED
Trippyness
Well-Known Member
The power savings are not that much. You need about 800w of COB to1kDE...
With the ACDE hoods, or a good warehuse ac, you are not spending as much as you may think.
Also, if you have a warehouse full of cobs youll need some ac anyways.
Trippyness
Well-Known Member
What were your yields with the gavita?
I must take your word with a grain of salt due to being a COB light advertiser, but have seen your grows and are quite good.
a mongo frog
Well-Known Member
To me 7000 a year is quite a bit of savings. And in commercial gardening yes there are people that would make that bet. Not trying to argue at all, this was just some dip shit math i did.
Trippyness
Well-Known Member
Ok, well after running some numbers I may have been dead wrong.
Say for a commercial operation.
50 lights
ACDE complete setup 550 per
27,500 total light cost
COB 1,500 per
75,000 total cost of light
So lets say 1.5GPW.
So about 3LBS per light for both give or take.
150LBS of Medical Quality Bud in one grow.
If selling wholsale at say 2k a LB thats 300k a harvest.
Now I am not factoring in electricity here or c02 , but you get the idea.
So paying off COBS would not take long at an industrial level.
However, warehouses get really cold, so this is where it goes down hill.
In a warehouse you will for sure need to add heat for the COBS which isnt cheap, with DE you must cool them, which also isnt cheap.
You will always have fans and airflow regardless of what setup, so thats not a factor.
Regardless of winter or summer warehouses are cold.
In the summer you will still need heat for COBS and AC for DE, in the winter you will need a heat for COBS even more, but DE you will need less AC.
So the conclusion is that DE and COBS are on the same level basically.
They cost more for the same job and even though they dont require AC, they do need heat.
So case proven in theory, commercial COBS are a waste of money over DE.
Again, prove me wrong, but I have mates who operate warehouses and they are cold as hell in the winter if he was not running DE as well as much less AC in the winter and the summer uses AC, but ROI is just not there for COBS.
I grow LED and enjoy it, but will be moving to ACDE HOODS.
Growers could cut costs on the fixtures by going non ACDE.
From the numbers and experience COBS are just more expensive for commercial. Smaller grows they work well, but price is just not justified.
Again, I am not biased on DE or LED or anything else. Just facts.
Say for a commercial operation.
50 lights
ACDE complete setup 550 per
27,500 total light cost
COB 1,500 per
75,000 total cost of light
So lets say 1.5GPW.
So about 3LBS per light for both give or take.
150LBS of Medical Quality Bud in one grow.
If selling wholsale at say 2k a LB thats 300k a harvest.
Now I am not factoring in electricity here or c02 , but you get the idea.
So paying off COBS would not take long at an industrial level.
However, warehouses get really cold, so this is where it goes down hill.
In a warehouse you will for sure need to add heat for the COBS which isnt cheap, with DE you must cool them, which also isnt cheap.
You will always have fans and airflow regardless of what setup, so thats not a factor.
Regardless of winter or summer warehouses are cold.
In the summer you will still need heat for COBS and AC for DE, in the winter you will need a heat for COBS even more, but DE you will need less AC.
So the conclusion is that DE and COBS are on the same level basically.
They cost more for the same job and even though they dont require AC, they do need heat.
So case proven in theory, commercial COBS are a waste of money over DE.
Again, prove me wrong, but I have mates who operate warehouses and they are cold as hell in the winter if he was not running DE as well as much less AC in the winter and the summer uses AC, but ROI is just not there for COBS.
I grow LED and enjoy it, but will be moving to ACDE HOODS.
Growers could cut costs on the fixtures by going non ACDE.
From the numbers and experience COBS are just more expensive for commercial. Smaller grows they work well, but price is just not justified.
Again, I am not biased on DE or LED or anything else. Just facts.
BOBBY_G
Well-Known Member
i hate to LOL, but LOL
sure they are the same when you discount the cost of electricity and cooling and bulb replacement and yield loss due to lumen maintenence, cooling glass in your fixture, oxidized reflectors, etc.
also you were getting 1-1.2 gpw with HPS but suddenly are at 1.5 GPW when you want to compare? and discount that many COB growers are getting *over* 1.5 GPW, regularly?
sounds like you had your conclusion predetermined and worked backwards with your analysis to suit it
Michael Huntherz
Well-Known Member
There is no person who convince you that COBs are ready at this point, you will have to wait for the data to pile up over the next year. Maybe you will need five years, ten years? I don't know how long it will take, but at a certain point you will find enough data easily consumable that you will be convinced. The price is justified because the tech is still developing. The efficiency has been improving consistently for a long time, and the price will come down. It is a matter of time, and more people taking the leap to invest in them. But it's all good, man, these fine people are just trying to give you a leg up on some good information. We all manage our own risk.
@ttystikk and his 5400 watts of COB should be something you watch closely for the next 6 months.
Trippyness
Well-Known Member
Just so you know I RUN LED CURRENTLY!.
I am comparing 1000w of de vs 1000 COB.
Both same power consumption.
DE need AC in the summer no doubt
COB needs Heat in the summer regardless
DE in the winter needs much less AC
COB still needs heat..
So, as you can see you just paid 2x the price for the same result.
Many growers are getting 1.5 + on DE.
Its very silly to think COB growers think that you hook up a COB in a warehouse and bam instant money...
No, you may not run AC but youll run heat.
You are loosing money on commercial COBS.
I love COB for small grows, but commercially is just absurd from a business and ROI standpoint.
Now as you stated, bulb changes yearly. COBS also loose light yearly.
I just dont understand how you can think you can justify the cost for the same results.
5k a year or less for bulb changes is pennies, not even 100% needed at all. When using ACDE you can get the lights way closer, so the 10% loss is much less over a year.
Its absurd to think that you think COBS dont loss efficiency over a year..
They are not practical for large scale grows.
Trippyness
Well-Known Member
I will be watching, I have run the numbers. Its not worth it.
I am a LED grower, so that should say something.
Only way COBs can be justified is of they cost less than DE or on PAR, but again still must heat the room. No worth it.
Will be watching all the threads this year. Please point me to a single COB warehouse.
Also, commercial grows must use UL and CE certified fixtures. There isnt much on the market other than hobby lights.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Looks horrible on both sides... Left is just silly.2 CX300...2 gavita. They are now to 5 cx300 to 2 gavita and say there is no difference in penatration or bud size except the led side always shows more color even in non-colored strains.
Anyway, that comment about color (apparently on just leaves in that pic), it's interesting you sort of present it as a positive. It's probably partly from the higher blue level, increasing anthocyanin levels, but a strain that otherwise would stay green becoming purple/red is often not actually a good sign, it indicates a premature chlorophyll production failure or breakdown or excessive blue, green and uv light, photoinhibition (light induced decrease in photosynthesis) and/or too cold leaf and/or roots temp. There is a myriad of reasons they "show more color" and the ones responsible are unlikely postive in this scenario.
Funny those fans pointing towards the leds... thanks for posting.
a mongo frog
Well-Known Member
Do you have experience on large scale gardens?