24 hour light vs. 18/6.

Bangaman

Active Member
In other words the darkness causes the plant(s) to complete their life cycle...like a fish does in a river under the correct environment :) Without darkness a so-called female marijuana plant can live indefinitely in the correct environment.
Plants need to photosynthesize 24/7. But b2cause there is no light at night, they evolved an energy draining process to supply the "power" like the sun. They use Ferredoxins to do this. This is an energy draining process that uses energy that could have been used for say growth. 24/0 spares this energy drain.



When Ferredoxins where first discovered the hype of "needed" sleep was born. But quickly squashed by further research
 

Bangaman

Active Member
Olive Drab Green said it in the best lay terms, about sunlight, "it's part of its figurative pulmonary/circulatory/digestive system. Light causes circulation and is what causes the negative pressure needed to bring the nutrients up into it from the root zone. Think of the light as the exterior heart."

Shut down sun energy and the plant's "figurative pulmonary/circulatory/digestive system" stops.

In the same way humans evolved lungs to breath outside of water, plants evolved Ferredoxins to keep phloem flow in darkness.

I just love it when people claim "natural harmony, mother nature stuff" because there is no harmony in nature. Mother nature is always trying to kill off living things who evolve to fight back (survival of the fittest). Plants are "happier" under 24/0. Plants want and need light all the time.

The only harmony and constants in nature are gravity and chaos (entropy).
 

Skunk Baxter

Well-Known Member
If my final product is the result of dumb luck, I'll take it. I may not have a firm grasp on botanical science, but I know my plants & know how to keep them happy.
I've kind of got one foot in both camps.

There's a lot more to growing cannabis than botany. It's both an art and a science, and if you treat it exclusively as a science, you'll never learn the art. The more you know about the science, the better you'll understand how to apply the art, but if the science is all you know then you don't know shit about growing.

I think a lot of us who haven't had the education that Bangaman has had, and who have had to acquire the art over the years, have still learned a lot of the same principles, and apply many of those principles in our grows - but we probably don't understand them as deeply as he does, nor do we have the same comprehensive grasp of how all those principles interrelate and work together. We just know what works, and usually have some basic understanding of why it works, but could not explain it in a book.

But we do it because it works. As he said himself, he's perfectly willing to try some of what he calls "bro science" if he thinks it has a basis in fact, and that's not any different from the way most of us approach it. If something sounds somewhat logical, and credible people say that it has worked for them, many of us will give it a try as well - but I think most of us are smart enough to tell the difference between whether some new technique works or does not work. If it works, we may incorporate it (or adapt some modified version of it), and while we may not fully understand why it works, we still get along fine. We all have certain results in mind that we want to achieve - and if something gets us those results we keep doing it, and if it doesn't, we don't bother. I consistently get well over a gram a watt on indoor grows, and I'm happy with that outcome. I don't need to be able to defend my techniques in a doctoral dissertation; that doesn't interest me.

All that matters to me is that I enjoy what I'm doing, and I do. I grow this plant because I absolutely love it - every aspect of it - and I love the results I get in terms of yield, potency, taste, fragrance, and type of high I get, and also because I hope to breed better medicinal strains for some specific conditions that impact someone I care about. I'm doing what I enjoy doing, the way I enjoy doing it. And that's all that matters to me.
 

MeJuana

Well-Known Member
Interesting, 24/0 chopped my bill down by about 25%. Makes me want to ask, Did you not see faster growth? I did the same and consistently reached target height much quicker with 24/0, this quicker time to "flower size" was my cash savings-not that 6 more kwh daily made that worth of a difference but I like the time savings. Veg longer or shorter
I didn't think I did see increased growth but now you are making me think I should try a little more scientifically so I can speak with more confidence.
 

Bangaman

Active Member
Hmmm. See those shadows about knowing how to grow? I am in Plato's cave. I did come here to share, but the resistance to enlightenment and change has made me the enemy. Quite frankly who cares? obviously you are in bliss bathing in dogma. Who am I to want to tell you the world is not flat? I love my Banga and so do you. That is the most important thing here.
 

a mongo frog

Well-Known Member
Hmmm. See those shadows about knowing how to grow? I am in Plato's cave. I did come here to share, but the resistance to enlightenment and change has made me the enemy. Quite frankly who cares? obviously you are in bliss bathing in dogma. Who am I to want to tell you the world is not flat? I love my Banga and so do you. That is the most important thing here.
Can you say this in bro science please. Having a hard time understanding your post.
 

Bangaman

Active Member
I've kind of got one foot in both camps.

There's a lot more to growing cannabis than botany. It's both an art and a science, and if you treat it exclusively as a science, you'll never learn the art. The more you know about the science, the better you'll understand how to apply the art, but if the science is all you know then you don't know shit about growing.

I think a lot of us who haven't had the education that Bangaman has had, and who have had to acquire the art over the years, have still learned a lot of the same principles, and apply many of those principles in our grows - but we probably don't understand them as deeply as he does, nor do we have the same comprehensive grasp of how all those principles interrelate and work together. We just know what works, and usually have some basic understanding of why it works, but could not explain it in a book.

But we do it because it works. As he said himself, he's perfectly willing to try some of what he calls "bro science" if he thinks it has a basis in fact, and that's not any different from the way most of us approach it. If something sounds somewhat logical, and credible people say that it has worked for them, many of us will give it a try as well - but I think most of us are smart enough to tell the difference between whether some new technique works or does not work. If it works, we may incorporate it (or adapt some modified version of it), and while we may not fully understand why it works, we still get along fine. We all have certain results in mind that we want to achieve - and if something gets us those results we keep doing it, and if it doesn't, we don't bother. I consistently get well over a gram a watt on indoor grows, and I'm happy with that outcome. I don't need to be able to defend my techniques in a doctoral dissertation; that doesn't interest me.

All that matters to me is that I enjoy what I'm doing, and I do. I grow this plant because I absolutely love it - every aspect of it - and I love the results I get in terms of yield, potency, taste, fragrance, and type of high I get, and also because I hope to breed better medicinal strains for some specific conditions that impact someone I care about. I'm doing what I enjoy doing, the way I enjoy doing it. And that's all that matters to me.
I Agree, there needs to be a balance between art and science. I have been practicing Banzai for many years, and belong to several local Banzai groups. I apply allot of the same principles in my cannabis grow.

The art of Banzai is much much older than indoor weed growing and it is to the point where it has completely separated the science behind Banzai and the art of Banzai. one must be good at both. The science of Banzai is carved in stone, the art of Banzai is a life journey.

The art of Banzai is the artistic eye's ability to push the plant's science to it's limit. We all have an artistic fingerprint we can perfect over time.

There is an art in the way you build your grow room or train your plants, but the underlying science is exact.

Because indoor and weed growing in general are relatively new, many are confusing the art with the science.

My Banzai mentor who is also Sushi Chef once told me, "Banzai like carving Fugu, you can master the knife art, but if you do not understand Fugu body...You must understand Fugu body." Fugu fish is lethal if carved by someone who does not understand fish anatomy and physiology and not necessarily in an academic way but understand it nonetheless.

There is no art in mixing nutrients, there is no dogma in gardening, everything has a solid scientific basis. However, a "green thumb" is someone who has an inborn (instinctive) compass to sometimes stumble on the right science. Until Cannabanzai ages enough, we have to weed out "bad green thumb" myths that pollute this fledgling Cannabanzai . It is our duty.
 
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Bangaman

Active Member
The good thing about applying Banzai to growing banga is that if you understand the science, you can perfect the art relatively quick because you can have several crops a year, practice makes perfect. Not with Banzai where actions can take years or even decades to show results
 

Will Thayer

Well-Known Member
Hey Bro,
The word bonsai, when translated from the Japanese, becomes "bon," a low-sided pot or tray, and "sai," a planting. Let us not confuse bonsai, as we often do, with "banzai," the word shouted by Japanese soldiers as they launched their suicide attacks on allied emplacements in World War II. One pronunciation denotes peace and tranquility, the other havoc and death.


Bonzai
upload_2016-4-25_8-53-11.jpeg
 

Bangaman

Active Member
Thank you for the correction. It was a typo, I did mean Bonsai. And though introduced to the rest of the world through Japan (during the Japanese occupation of China, yes that recent), Its true origins is China for indoor growing, to much easier transport container-grown plants in addition to having more control over the production of flower and fruit before it became a Japanese hobby. Keep in mind different plants are strongly associated with various ceremonies and customs throughout the Chinese year. It is not uncommon for Chinese to bring a fully potted fruit tree to temple one week and switch it with a blooming tree the following week, both plants fruiting and blooming outside their natural seasons.

There are many many applications Bonsai applications that indoor Cannabis growers are already doing and many more they could apply.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Plants need to photosynthesize 24/7. But b2cause there is no light at night, they evolved an energy draining process to supply the "power" like the sun. They use Ferredoxins to do this. This is an energy draining process that uses energy that could have been used for say growth. 24/0 spares this energy drain.

When Ferredoxins where first discovered the hype of "needed" sleep was born. But quickly squashed by further research
This statement you make, is just as wrong as the myth your trying to dispel...Your being obtuse here.

I don't know what to think of you exactly.

You have a good deal of book learn'in. Yet there are gaps in it that too. Not to mention you misspell "Bonsai" in a post basically meant to impress us somehow.

Your challenged to post pics and all you give are small vegging plants - OUTDOORS and no real bud or harvest shots other then excuse's why you don't "feel" that they say anything about how someone grows....I can understand not wanting to post pics as it took me years on here to be able do it.. No harm-No foul......But I still find the excuse as an "odd" one...

I don't know what to say here or how to say it.....While you have what appears to be good book learn'in. I'm having a hard time seeing the overall actual growing skill and time growing under your belt! The amount of years growing "alluded" to are, well, not exactly impressive. At one point you say you carb load your soil with molasses and other "sugar" source's. Then foliar molasses at the end. Molasses does actually so little for a plant, not to mention MOST carbs do not "feed" the plant they feed the Living Bio's in the soil. Molasses IS "Bro Science" for actual plants Dude! Molasses is for brewing AACT bio Teas. You use it like an Agar in a petri dish to grow bacteria!

Your "too one sided" on the issue here. Not accepting of what others have found in there own experience as being what works better for them.....I agree, science has answers.. And there is a shit ton of "Bro Science" (your term) or hippie Myth as I like to say..We should be simply looking to apply it properly and/or use it as a tool..

On that note. I know a guy on here who has well over 30 years more actual grow experience then you imply. He vegg's for 16/8 and has some fantastic results......I find I have healthier plants with less stress when mine get a lights out.

As I said in a way before. No, Cannabis does not require a lights out time to grow. Yet, I (and MANY others) get better end quality when we do....

I was also hoping you would have commented on my reasoning on my earlier disagreement. I used a "book learn'in" reason to counter your assertation's. You did not.

Now why is that?


I'm still not sure about you....there's just something I can't put my finger on yet..

STILL


Peace on !!
 
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Optic1

Well-Known Member
This statement you make, is just as wrong as the myth your trying to dispel...Your being obtuse here.

I don't know what to think of you exactly.

You have a good deal of book learn'in. Yet there are gaps in it that too. Not to mention you misspell "Bonsai" in a post basically meant to impress us somehow.

Your challenged to post pics and all you give are small vegging plants - OUTDOORS and no real bud or harvest shots other then excuse's why you don't "feel" that they say anything about how someone grows....I can understand not wanting to post pics as it took me years on here to be able do it.. No harm-No foul......But I still find the excuse as an "odd" one...

I don't know what to say here or how to say it.....While you have what appears to be good book learn'in. I'm having a hard time seeing the overall actual growing skill and time growing under your belt! The amount of years growing "alluded" to are, well, not exactly impressive. At one point you say you carb load your soil with molasses and other "sugar" source's. Then foliar molasses at the end. Molasses does actually so little for a plant, not to mention MOST carbs do not "feed" the plant they feed the Living Bio's in the soil. Molasses IS "Bro Science" for actual plants Dude! Molasses is for brewing AACT bio Teas. You use it like an Agar in a petri dish to grow bacteria!

Your "to one sided" on the issue here. Not accepting of what others have found in there own experience as being what works better for them.....I agree, science has answers.. And there is a shit ton of "Bro Science" (your term) or hippie Myth as I like to say..We should be simply looking to apply it properly and/or use it as a tool..

On that note. I know a guy on here who has well over 30 years more actual grow experience then you imply. He vegg's for 16/8 and has some fantastic results......I find I have healthier plants with less stress when mine get a lights out.

As I said in a way before. No, Cannabis does not require a lights out time to grow. Yet, I (and MANY others) get better end quality when we do....

I was also hoping you would have commented on my reasoning on my earlier disagreement. I used a "book learn'in" reason to counter your assertation's. You did not.

Now why is that?


I'm still not sure about you....there's just something I can't put my finger on yet..

STILL


Peace on !!
Did you wake up in a bad mood lol.
 

platt

Well-Known Member
^^ was neccesary lol heś just trying to block picky language & an incoming homeround around all mythbust. Mind when we were newcomers^

Please can everyone focuse on the light/darkness cycle? looks like opening an empty fridge o_O

crap, at least we could make a darkness benefits list. Males also like lists.
 

Resinhound

Well-Known Member
^^ was neccesary lol heś just trying to block picky language & an incoming homeround around all mythbust. Mind when we were newcomers^

Please can everyone focuse on the light/darkness cycle? looks like opening an empty fridge o_O

crap, at least we could make a darkness benefits list. Males also like lists.
A darkness benefit list would be really short...
And just be populated by what people THINK are benefits.. In truth the only real benefit is to build ethylene to initiate flowering... If you are growing a species that requires that. I've read some studies that point to darkness
causing depletion of stored starches. This can be a benefit pre harvest I guess. But the benefits of light far outweigh the benefits of darkness from my research.
 

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
A darkness benefit list would be really short...
And just be populated by what people THINK are benefits.. In truth the only real benefit is to build ethylene to initiate flowering... If you are growing a species that requires that. I've read some studies that point to darkness
causing depletion of stored starches. This can be a benefit pre harvest I guess. But the benefits of light far outweigh the benefits of darkness from my research.
Interesting points.

I disagree.....for the most part. If you can explain correctly why the use of Co2, increases results by as much as 30+ %. Then you have the basis of why I believe in a dark period......I do run clones and seedlings 24/0. But out of solo's, no way! Not at the lighting intensities I'm running!

As far as depletion of stored starch's. What I would get from such a paper is that;
1: They needed to adjust the various conditions to optimize production/storage of the effected C3 plant.
2: Plants seeing the this are most likely showing effects of the condition that requires a "night" or "lights out period" to actually repair on that cellular level for optimal operation. ALL C3 Plants are effected by this action/reaction..

As far as any benefit in Bloom or "pre harvest". Your are having a lights out to actually "bloom"....

Sure, Cannabis does not, as a C3 plant. "Require" a lights out or darkness period to grow.....That does NOT mean that your actually "optimizing" anything other then time to complete the vegging period. Some random and minor effects can and do result if the grower is doing things right for his plant by 24/0

Yet, in the end. I have found it to be more conductive to follow a more Mmmm,,"natural" approach to get as close to plant "potential" vs. 24/7.....If fact I earlier mentioned someone who runs 16/8.....He does that to have a more accurate circadian rhythm.. I'm close to setting up a 2 area match to his grows. Just to map the idea's he's implementing along those lines for myself......If you don't experiment, you stagnate!

In the long run. I'm not in a hurry. I'm in for the best I can get!

And AGAIN! 24/0 works - do whats right for YOU!
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
People who think they save 25% electricity under 18/6 miss the point that they could be using a less powerful veg lamp when it's on 24 hours a day. Under 18/6, the plant has to use starch reserves during the night, and during the day it must use some of its sugars it would have used for growth to produce starch for the next night. Under 24/0, it saturates with starch and then can use all its sugars for growth.

This means you need a more powerful lamp with 18/6 to get the same DLI (daily light integral). I said this a few pages back but it seemed to get brushed over by most readers here.
 
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Resinhound

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry I don't see the connection you are trying to make about co2 utilization and a dark period.

As far as circadium rhythms and all that... I guess that kinda falls into the realm of "bro science" if you will.Plants will adapt to their environment as much as possible.
 
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Bangaman

Active Member
I've kind of got one foot in both camps.

There's a lot more to growing cannabis than botany. It's both an art and a science, and if you treat it exclusively as a science, you'll never learn the art. The more you know about the science, the better you'll understand how to apply the art, but if the science is all you know then you don't know shit about growing.

I think a lot of us who haven't had the education that Bangaman has had, and who have had to acquire the art over the years, have still learned a lot of the same principles, and apply many of those principles in our grows - but we probably don't understand them as deeply as he does, nor do we have the same comprehensive grasp of how all those principles interrelate and work together. We just know what works, and usually have some basic understanding of why it works, but could not explain it in a book.

But we do it because it works. As he said himself, he's perfectly willing to try some of what he calls "bro science" if he thinks it has a basis in fact, and that's not any different from the way most of us approach it. If something sounds somewhat logical, and credible people say that it has worked for them, many of us will give it a try as well - but I think most of us are smart enough to tell the difference between whether some new technique works or does not work. If it works, we may incorporate it (or adapt some modified version of it), and while we may not fully understand why it works, we still get along fine. We all have certain results in mind that we want to achieve - and if something gets us those results we keep doing it, and if it doesn't, we don't bother. I consistently get well over a gram a watt on indoor grows, and I'm happy with that outcome. I don't need to be able to defend my techniques in a doctoral dissertation; that doesn't interest me.

All that matters to me is that I enjoy what I'm doing, and I do. I grow this plant because I absolutely love it - every aspect of it - and I love the results I get in terms of yield, potency, taste, fragrance, and type of high I get, and also because I hope to breed better medicinal strains for some specific conditions that impact someone I care about. I'm doing what I enjoy doing, the way I enjoy doing it. And that's all that matters to me.

Saying there is no science in art is a fallacious misconception. Science, is art and art is science. Cannot separate the two. It is like saying, trying to separate a woman's beauty and her physical person. The person is beautiful, the beauty is the result of the science (biology).

So from my beauty analogy you see that Bad Art is identical in DNA to Bad Science, (Instead of saying Ugly Woman, you could say ugly Genes).

Lets take the Art of Basketball, or any sport, and Look at the genetics behind every player's particular artistic skill set and you cannot separate the two, the are one and the the same, Science and art.

Take Michael Jackson . . .for example, that birth mark or mold on his penis was meant, oh wait wrong subject..

Now you maybe thinking Art is Dogma, no no, you want Dogma you go to church. The art of growing Satan's Plant (Cannabis) is scientific indeed, no different than Leonardo Davinci's mathematical equations to perfect Mona Lisa or the chapel ceiling, all based on mathematical precision . . . .science.


Now I am going to freak you out if I say Cannabis is what I call Satan's Plant because it has a mathematical precision. And every good gardener will tell you, there is no luck or guessing in a being a green thumb. It is precise. Like every living thing has a golden ratio. Cannabis happens to have a golden ration of 666 using Big Satan's Inches and Feet, and pounds etc, and a golden ratio of 612 using the metric system., The funny thing about that is that 666, and 612 are the Numbers of the Beast, and 666 using the American measuring system the only country that still uses that system is also nick named the Big Satan.

The study of Plant ratios is called Allometry, and if you really want to begin learning about this plant my friends, follow the 666 or to be precise 0.666 if using inches and pounds and 612 if using metric.

What does this mean? This means everything on Cannabis will have a ratio of 0.666, the closer you are to that ration, in everything you do with this plant, the closer you are to perfection and maximized yields.

No seriously, do not take my word for it, go measure your plant, if the ration of branch from node to node is not 0.666 you plant is really sick or something os off. Measure the battom branch and the one right above it, you should see 0.666 2/3 ratio.

HAHA! You gonna thank me for this one HHHHAAAAAA MWAHHHHHHHHAAAAA loughs SATAN!

Now, perfect cure zone is 0.666 humidity left in the plant that means that the
Perfet dry weight is ater you lose 0.666 of 75% of of the wet trimmed weight because plants are 25% pure dry weight if charred, and 75% water, you take out .666% of the 75% water and that is your perfect mummified bud with all the right moisture left in it and all the stuff has broken down to perfection for the perfect hoppy earthy, flavor of good cannabis, for a dank sticky almost discolored bud that makes your mouth water because you can taste it in your mouth from just smelling it, it is so dank!

And the .666 ratio goes on and on and on. When in doubt with this plant, check your ratios.

Now, my friends, when you have built an internal road map of this plant to the point where your brain processes all the science behind in by one glance at your plant, that is when the science becomes an art because you do this unconsciously. I can glance at a cannabis plant and almost tell you with 99% certitude is something is off. One glance over my plants and I wander towards one of them without thinking or knowing what I am doing but I am in auto mat mode because the science is built into my reasoning.

The science behind the midget is that his geometrical measurements are off, GOOD LORD. But, please be advised, just because your allometric measurements are off does not mean your plant is sick, in fact you can use the knowledge to maximize yield, for instance, root zone ratio is 0.6666 and therefore if your root zone ratio is 6, (Above ground length to root lenth) guess what, your plant is not sick but a supperfreak, like Randy Moss and his arm span (and that magic catch)

So by knowing your ratios you can enhance your yield, we like women with big asses and boobs, well Jennifer Lopez has a piss poor Allometric ratio but good Lord, I divorce my wife for 5 minutes inside that rectum, or to see that face looking up at me.

You think I am Kidding? Chop a full grown plant in half and stick int in flower and see what you get for size bud, because you had a kitchen (root zone) of 3 cooks for every 1 Soldier, and by cutting the plant (abopve ground) in half you have now 3 cooks for every 1 soldier. Your soldier gonna be fight juicy and healthier. IN fact drastic cutting like this makes plants that are 6 times more robust and resistant to pests because that root zone ratio boosts everything else as the plant now feeds supper more. Do this in Hydry and Bowaka!

Not knowing the science makes you do and accept dumb stuff like the religious fools accept DOGMA! Like fools around here saying plants need dark and shittty advice like that, or that 18/6 and fast growth or some other Bro Science stpidity.
 
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