3500k vs 4000k vs 5000k ?

nevergoodenuf

Well-Known Member
I am vegging a few OG's for my next run right now. These will be huge by the time the rooms ready, so my plan is to run the first 2 weeks under the 4000k ( or maybe the 5000k if it comes in on time). After the stretch is over I will then run the 3200k 95+cri until the last 2 weeks switch back to the 4000k (or 5000k) to finish.
 

kmog33

Well-Known Member
I am only a couple weeks in testing CRI, but it is also between 4000k 80cri and 3200k 95+cri. Still the only difference I see is the amount of stretch and the sun leaves are larger under the 95+. So far those are the only differences I can see. Do you guys see anything different?View attachment 3694510 View attachment 3694514 View attachment 3694520
Yeah on The closeup pics the color green of the leaves looks pretty different. So there may be something there. Maybe just the pictures, but it looks to me like those plants are responding to your feed a bit different(if your nute solution is the same in both systems).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Those look just great under the high cri. That's what the high CRI is all about, produce natural realistic looking (for us) colors. That is a result from the spectrum though, and is this case a MUCH better one if you use 3000.

2700-3000k at 90CRI is what people should be using instead of being blinded by luminous efficiency and picking 80cri 3500K. Those are the ones for fat colas. Especially buying 3500k and 4000k cri 80 and adding photo red show nicely how the lum/per watt at the light source epeen race leads to idiocracy. Buy lower color temp with cri 90 and you don't have to.

Buys led roughly 17% more efficient in producing light (top bin 3500k 80 cr vs , especially blue yellow orange, and ignores the cobs with the excellent spectrum for photosynthesis with a 640-660 peak 40% higher than the 80cri. Can buy grow light, buys bay lighting instead... All some Unlucky Brians material.

More stem elongation compared to more blue light is to be expected. It's not that big of a problem as people make it out to be though. And easy to fix by adding some cooler temp, or adding xpe for more blue. If you care about the effectiveness of efficient led you barely veg in a flower space anyway. When you have to choose only one, you obviously pick the best one for the two months flowering. And add steer lighting when necesary. That's one of the major advantages of led horticulturist and professional grow light designers are a lot more interested in.

Supra wrote a good post once with some key info:
The 5700K shows a lower lumen/W due to a lower LER. It may be slightly more efficient but possibly less effective. The theory I have been keeping in mind, we should use as little blue as we can without sacrificing bud quality or COB efficiency. The higher color temps could have excess blue photons for a handful of reasons.

-Blue photons require more more energy to create and they drive photosynthesis less efficiently than the longer wavelengths.

-White LEDs have a blue spike around 450nm and the higher color temps have an even higher spike. It seems to be beneficial to spread the power across many wavelengths as sunlight does so we may want to avoid tall spikes, especially in the blue range.

-Excess blue photons might even some forms of stress to the plant, damaging some compounds (including cannabinoids if it were used in late flowering) and making the plant think it is being bombarded by high energy photons UVA and UVB. Dentists use 450nm blue to bleach stains out of teeth and it works very well on laundry, carpeting etc.

I am not suggesting that 5700K won't work, just the reasoning why we should only use as much blue as is necessary. KNNA recommended 25-30% for vegging, 15-20% for flowering. SDS recommends even less if I recall.
The 80cri (and higher K) are better for warming up plants though lol

Rough, but should be obvious enough for those with more than half-a-brain:

image.jpeg

The 3500k and up users are mainly focussing on chlorophyll b. You're all running, as many others knew already, an efficient veg light. Which yes, can grow bud too, just like mh can. And yes, plenty of margin in efficiency to beat hps with it it gpw-wise but when you design a led grow light that is not the goal... The energy saving is inherent to led, you don't have to use a sub optimal spectrum.

The whole blue for veg and red for flower didn't fall out the sky... More blue is more compact plants, depending on R:FR ratio. In combination with daylight/fullspectrum, more FR is larger and thin leaf surface, more blue is smaller but thicker leaf surface.

This is still confirmed and researched daily by photobiologists for different plant species. As I said long ago, grow led is all about steer lighting. And the high cri version offer a very solid basis instead of the higher color and lower cri versions. Besides, as you all know, red light is way more efficient for the plant....

@Rahz: remember what I said about that the quest for lum efficiency should not lead to wasting space or light... Well here you go. That max ppfd depends on the quality of light as well. High ppfd with suboptimal spectrum leads to photoinhibition much faster. As is evident in the grows from people who claim cobs bring out the colors better... and follow that up with pics of plants showing the clear signs of photoinhibition. The unusual anthocyanin production to protect the plant against all that excess far less useful green and some blue (absorping those and removing those from the reflected spetrum, hence the red/purple appearance). At the same time it causes a decrease in quantum efficiency and reduction in net photosynthesis.

Malvidin is a common anthocyanin:



Moral of the story, most here are doing led all wrong and it's time you start talking plants instead of light source efficiency. Buy 3000k 90cri instead. Or the 2700k even, no spectrum data in the specs and may be overdoing it in terms of lowering blue,

Proper color, under hps of course:
image.jpeg
 

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
And you know this how? So your a LED expert now. Have you done side by sides 80 CRI vs 90 CRI? Does the shift in spectrum make up for the loss in efficiency? Or are you just yanking this out of your backside as usual and guessing.

What's the CRI of HPS and how do you explain that?
 
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nevergoodenuf

Well-Known Member
I don't think the 90 cri pushes the red peak high enough. These 95+ cri peak closer to 660nm. Later I will find CDIwebs link to ppf vs active ppf.
 

SoOLED

Well-Known Member
I'm guessing if I was building my own: make symmetrical L/R with 3500k and 5000k's

if I had to pick one: 3500k
 

nevergoodenuf

Well-Known Member
With COBs like the Duet, our lights already have the ability to be made fully tunable with little change to are designs.
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Those look just great under the high cri. That's what the high CRI is all about, produce natural realistic looking (for us) colors. That is a result from the spectrum though, and is this case a MUCH better one if you use 3000.

2700-3000k at 90CRI is what people should be using instead of being blinded by luminous efficiency and picking 80cri 3500K. Those are the ones for fat colas. Especially buying 3500k and 4000k cri 80 and adding photo red show nicely how the lum/per watt at the light source epeen race leads to idiocracy. Buy lower color temp with cri 90 and you don't have to.

Buys led roughly 17% more efficient in producing light (top bin 3500k 80 cr vs , especially blue yellow orange, and ignores the cobs with the excellent spectrum for photosynthesis with a 640-660 peak 40% higher than the 80cri. Can buy grow light, buys bay lighting instead... All some Unlucky Brians material.

More stem elongation compared to more blue light is to be expected. It's not that big of a problem as people make it out to be though. And easy to fix by adding some cooler temp, or adding xpe for more blue. If you care about the effectiveness of efficient led you barely veg in a flower space anyway. When you have to choose only one, you obviously pick the best one for the two months flowering. And add steer lighting when necesary. That's one of the major advantages of led horticulturist and professional grow light designers are a lot more interested in.

Supra wrote a good post once with some key info:


The 80cri (and higher K) are better for warming up plants though lol

Rough, but should be obvious enough for those with more than half-a-brain:

View attachment 3694615

The 3500k and up users are mainly focussing on chlorophyll b. You're all running, as many others knew already, an efficient veg light. Which yes, can grow bud too, just like mh can. And yes, plenty of margin in efficiency to beat hps with it it gpw-wise but when you design a led grow light that is not the goal... The energy saving is inherent to led, you don't have to use a sub optimal spectrum.

The whole blue for veg and red for flower didn't fall out the sky... More blue is more compact plants, depending on R:FR ratio. In combination with daylight/fullspectrum, more FR is larger and thin leaf surface, more blue is smaller but thicker leaf surface.

This is still confirmed and researched daily by photobiologists for different plant species. As I said long ago, grow led is all about steer lighting. And the high cri version offer a very solid basis instead of the higher color and lower cri versions. Besides, as you all know, red light is way more efficient for the plant....

@Rahz: remember what I said about that the quest for lum efficiency should not lead to wasting space or light... Well here you go. That max ppfd depends on the quality of light as well. High ppfd with suboptimal spectrum leads to photoinhibition much faster. As is evident in the grows from people who claim cobs bring out the colors better... and follow that up with pics of plants showing the clear signs of photoinhibition. The unusual anthocyanin production to protect the plant against all that excess far less useful green and some blue (absorping those and removing those from the reflected spetrum, hence the red/purple appearance). At the same time it causes a decrease in quantum efficiency and reduction in net photosynthesis.

Malvidin is a common anthocyanin:



Moral of the story, most here are doing led all wrong and it's time you start talking plants instead of light source efficiency. Buy 3000k 90cri instead. Or the 2700k even, no spectrum data in the specs and may be overdoing it in terms of lowering blue,

Proper color, under hps of course:
View attachment 3694639
Luminous efficiency does not mean what you think it does. You keep making these long posts but certain things you write make it clear that you really have no clue what you're talking about.

A luminous efficiency of 100% corresponds to a luminous efficacy of radiation of 683lm/W.

Please learn wtf you're talking about before you spout a bunch of shit. Nobody here boasts luminous efficiency, in fact it's a term that's only used by you, and only incorrectly. Straw man at worst, ignorant mistake at best.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
There's a lot more wrong with his post too. He talks and talks, but doesn't realize how wrong he is. There is not 40% more red in 90cri. That's ridiculous. He's comparing relative charts. If you look at the absolute charts of 80cri vs 90, it shows that you very little gain in red and a LOT lost in the green and yellow. It's a huge win for 80cri and so far nobody has been able to demonstrate a better yield with 90cri.

The absolute charts look more like this. Very little gained, very much lost.

cxa spectral flux.jpg

It's just more talking out of his ass. He has no idea wtf he's talking about.
 
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nevergoodenuf

Well-Known Member
I am not ignoring it. Almost all my lights are70 or 80 cri. But I got these to test and see real world differences. So far every plant is on par, no matter what temp. or cri.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
And you know this how? So your a LED expert now.
Oh please, as if you would be able to comprehend it if I explained how normal people gain factual knowledge. We wouldn't have any problems then cause you wouldn't lash everytime it turns out there is more to it than lum eff. I'm sorry, I can do a lot, I know a few things too, but I can't lift you to my level. It requires above all a desire to grow plants instead of epeen. As well as intellect. So, better stick to parroting and trolling ClownMorgan.

You may want to pretend you're an expert because you grew with some cobs and know so much, I have no desire to do so. I select SMEs for a living. I detemine who is expert on specifics based on what they say and write, not who they are (because experts are unlike what you think not all knowing, they reason...).

Ironically, it's not so led specific and again your reply shows you care about wall plug efficiency of an electrical device, not about using leds to build an optimal grow light. The real question should be, how the hell don't you know. But then, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

Take it or leave it or talk to a highpriest or prove me right again inevitably and dance like a good marionette. It's all the same to me. Well frankly, it's funnier when you deny the widely know and researched facts (by experts lol, not bro science).
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
And not based on a single grow either lol

And stop trying to beat/replace hps. It's a fallacy. Compared led to led instead. Doh...

I don't think the 90 cri pushes the red peak high enough. These 95+ cri peak closer to 660nm. Later I will find CDIwebs link to ppf vs active ppf.
As obvious in the cree spectrums I posted it's a huge shift in the right direction.

I told you guys many times, you're wasting time with the anal focus on efficiency (obviously cause it's all you can understand, the rest is expert level lol). Instead of reading specs from led manufactures try reading proper research from professional led growers and led grow light engineers.
 

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
Why is it that you can't post your ideas without adding some sort of back handed insult,there seems to be at least one in every post you make.
 

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
And not based on a single grow either lol

And stop trying to beat/replace hps. It's a fallacy. Compared led to led instead. Doh...

As obvious in the cree spectrums I posted it's a huge shift in the right direction.

I told you guys many times, you're wasting time with the anal focus on efficiency (obviously cause it's all you can understand, the rest is expert level lol). Instead of reading specs from led manufactures try reading proper research from professional led growers and led grow light engineers.
If LED grow light engineers know so much then why do they copy whats been tested here and shown to work and not us copying them.
 

Trippyness

Well-Known Member
If LED grow light engineers know so much then why do they copy whats been tested here and shown to work and not us copying them.
Not sure whats up his ass. COB and even single diodes beat HPS in wattage and efficiency as well as the ability to tweak spectrum. Proven all over many boards for years now.
 

JorgeGonzales

Well-Known Member
We wouldn't have any problems then cause you wouldn't lash everytime it turns out there is more to it than lum eff. I'm sorry, I can do a lot, I know a few things too, but I can't lift you to my level.

...blah...blah...blah...

It's all the same to me. Well frankly, it's funnier when you deny the widely know and researched facts (by experts lol, not bro science).
First of all, you are fucking delusional. I mean you have to be engaging in some high level satire with your opinion of your intellect.

Second, the only thing experts are sure of is more light = more plant. The rest is up for debate. All of it.

And where the rubber meets the road is umols/J, which is what anybody with a clue is concerned with first and foremost, spectrum second. Why? See above.

None of this is that complicated, and yet you keep screwing it up while acting like a poorly written parody of an exasperated genius. Even when somebody explains exactly why you are wrong when you say shit like "the 640-660 peak is 40% higher than 80 CRI", you just ignore it. Complete reality distortion field. Hint: the 80 CRI and 90CRI lines fucking cross at 650nm when you aren't misreading relative SPD charts.

Forget it, I can't bring you up to my level.
 
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