Is the World Flat? The Flatlander's theory..

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curious2garden

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Staff member
Yes, we turn over A and 4. If the 4 has an A on it, it falsifies the statement we want to test: "If a card has an "A" on one side it will have a "7" on the other side."

If a card has A on one side and a 4 on the other side, the statement is false.
Sorry that is not correct the way I learned logic. If A then 7 it does not require exclusivity that would be an IFF statement.

I actually took your arguments quite seriously and was impressed with your knowledge and understanding of the subject. Since I take massive amounts of cannabis to keep the chronic pain away I easily miss things. Therefore I decided to take some time, come completely off the cannabis, and make sure I was understanding your argument.

I am disappointed in you Tyler. I don't throw memes at someone who is legitimately working on understanding a point. You would have shown less bias by simply elaborating from another angle where, you felt, I was missing the point instead of meme throwing.


Until cannabineer returns to give me something to mull over, I'm bored.

......snip.........
Et tu, I was going to concede a point and ask a question but I won't bother you with my lack of erudition. In my field the person who got insulting first lost the argument no matter their content.

@cannabineer, I concede you were correct they do test positive. I won't argue with you on that subject again.
 
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cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
For the sake of clarity, would you mind if we focus on the availability heuristic and hash out the wason selection task sometime after. I have no intention of dodging that subject.

Lets look at another example of the availability heuristic. This is one taught to students as an example of the phenomenon. I'm curious if you also see this as confirmation bias.


"In the last few months I have seen nearly a dozen reports of people being attacked by sharks while swimming. I'm not going near the beach this year."

If we see lots of shark attacks in the news, we may get the idea that sharks are out of control and avoid going to the beach. This is a classic example of the availability heuristic. This is due to the frequency with which we have seen the example (the news loves to report shark attacks). The more we see it, the easier it comes to mind. However, vividness of an example has also been shown to make the example more available. So, the same aversion of beaches can be triggered if we have just watched the movie Jaws. We are, essentially, misjudging the statistical likelihood of being attacked by a shark. In my example, we have misjudged the likelihood of there being a serial killer outside. We have not confirmed any prior belief. The idea didn't exist until we heard the noise. (https://visualbloke.wordpress.com/2012/02/11/sharks-and-the-availability-bias/)

The wiki page on this heuristic sums up and gives references to the research behind both frequency and vividness being factors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

"In general, availability is correlated with ecological frequency, but it is also affected by other factors. Consequently, the reliance on the availability heuristic leads to systematic biases. Such biases are demonstrated in the judged frequency of classes of words, of combinatorial outcomes, and of repeated events. The phenomenon of illusory correlation is explained as an availability bias."

"Two studies with 108 undergraduates investigated vivid information and its impact on social judgment and the availability heuristic and its role in mediating vividness effects. . .Such effects have typically been attributed to the ready accessibility of vividly presented information in memory—that is, to the availability heuristic. In both studies, vividness affected both availability (ability to recall) and judgments. However, causal modeling results indicated that the availability heuristic did not play a role in the (social) judgment process."

The availability heuristic is often confused with confirmation bias. It's not a new thing, or something that is just occurring between the two of us.


Here is another cognitive phenomenon that is often confused with confirmation bias.

'Have you ever had a conversation in which some old movie was mentioned, something like “The Golden Child” or maybe even something more obscure?

You are flipping channels one night and all of the sudden you see “The Golden Child” is playing. Weird. The next day you are reading a news story, and out of nowhere it mentions forgotten movies from the 1980s, and holy shit, three paragraphs about “The Golden Child.” You see a trailer that night at the theater for a new Eddie Murphy movie, and then you see a billboard on the street promoting Charlie Murphy doing stand-up in town, and then one of your friends sends you a link to a post at TMZ showing recent photos of the actress from “The Golden Child.” Is the universe trying to tell you something?'

This sounds very much like confirmation bias, and no doubt that some of the same mental mechanics are at play (selective attention, pattern recognition, ect), however, what would we be confirming? This is known as the frequency illusion. Again, the main difference is the active pursuit of truth. The frequency illusion can give rise to false ideas, but until we have those ideas, there is nothing to confirm.



I am defending the example based on what I have been taught and how I understand biases. I may be wrong of course, but I am not being stubborn. What you have offered so far has not convinced me that I'm wrong, and, to be respectfully frank, what you have offered seems to be somewhat of a misconception of biases. For example, there is no "reason tree" to biases. They come intuitively. They can, of course, immediately be backed up by fallacious logic, but the logical mistakes are separate from the biases.

What I have tried to show is that there are distinctions between the availability heuristic and confirmation bias, and those distinctions are not simply shrewd attempts by me to save face. They are recognized by researchers and professors in the field of cognition. The availability heuristic involves estimating the frequencies of events on the basis of how easily we can call to mind what we perceive as relevant information of a phenomenon, and confirmation bias is when we seek or interpret information based on prior belief.

What you have not shown is what belief existed prior to hearing the noise. What did the noise confirm? Why, when we hear a noise while watching something innocuous, like a nature documentary or American Idol, do we suspect animals (or neighbors, or something that actually is likely) rather than a serial killer?
I am willing to concede that the availability heuristic may be a perceptual overlay, but I don't think it is a perceptual event. Overlays are cognitive in nature.

~edit~ In the original example the two biased conclusions were "animal" and "serial killer". Statistically animals are much, much more common than serial killers. Annie and I discussed it, and she elucidated this statistical argument that works in favor of the availability heuristic. She has helped me work this one in my head. So I see that frequency plus vividness has an effect here probably beyond confirmation bias. I do not have my conclusions fully ready.

However we have bigger fish to fry, Heisenberg.
 
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eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLlNKy5j_O8 If it was a mirage or inversion wouldn't it be hazy or upside down?
I can't prove the earth is round with a telescope across water and the coriolis effect cant prove it either. Nasa pictures are ribbon banded composites photoshoped, they said so themselves. I talked to my sniper friend today or yesterday about coriolis, he said it was real but they weren't trained to factor it in. I hear a lot of people say that snipers have to calculate for it, well I've got news for you they don't. I couldn't find any artillery videos that calculate for it, I'll keep looking. This video says the opposite
The Cialis effect proves an axis, imo :)
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Until cannabineer returns to give me something to mull over, I'm bored.
I am amazed that you ignored the person who brought the argument most precisely and concisely. Annie argued with you by every rule of rational and objective discourse, and she addressed all your points respectfully and insightfully. Your flat-out ignoring her speaks to your bias. I am seeing a pattern in you that is familiar to me, one that I have seen in others who will conceal and not admit their misogyny. You brought the sort of insult usually only academics deploy and recognize, insult to a plainly-capable and engaged boardmate who brought high-value discussion of the exact topic that interested you. I believe that the difference is the gender of your interlocutor. Boys' clubhouse! No stinky girls!
Shall we play another game?


Name that cognitive bias.

-I believe half of all marriages end in divorce, but I am confident that if I get married I will end up in the half that stay together.

-Although I smoke two packs a day, I don't think I will get lung cancer because I didn't start smoking until I was 25.

-My chances of winning the lottery are better than most people because I have a special system for picking the numbers.

The three statements have a bias in common, what is it? Yes, I know that the actual divorce rate is not as simple as saying "it's 50/50", which is why the first one is worded carefully.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
A "let's watch the drama" meme instead of substantive discussion of the logic/bias issues. When I combine this with your recent defense of Pad, who has repeatedly been outed as a serious hater of women ... I see you slyly hooking your boxcar to the misogyny train.

It hurts for two reasons. The lesser is that it hurts to see that I gravitated toward misogynistic male friends, and that says something about me. I am only beginning to admit how much I concealed my own misogyny behind the social forms.

I will leave the identification of the greater reason as an exercise for the reader.
 

SunnyJim

Well-Known Member
A "let's watch the drama" meme instead of substantive discussion of the logic/bias issues. When I combine this with your recent defense of Pad, who has repeatedly been outed as a serious hater of women ... I see you slyly hooking your boxcar to the misogyny train.

It hurts for two reasons. The lesser is that it hurts to see that I gravitated toward misogynistic male friends, and that says something about me. I am only beginning to admit how much I concealed my own misogyny behind the social forms.

I will leave the identification of the greater reason as an exercise for the reader.
It may count for nothing, but I think you're being much too hard on yourself, cb. I also think you're being much too hard on Tyler.

I can't imagine either one of you being misogynists.

Peace and love.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
It may count for nothing, but I think you're being much too hard on yourself, cb. I also think you're being much too hard on Tyler.

I can't imagine either one of you being misogynists.

Peace and love.
You didn't read the Loquacious thread where I did Annie the same way ... apparently praising her while slipping her the hidden blade. I can't show it to you because I colluded with Loquacious to destroy the evidence. Were this an isolated incident, I could rent your kind but misplaced remark. However the way i have hurt and driven off the other women in my life is a tale I don't tell ... but which confirms my status as a misogynist. I've accepted the thirty pieces of silver many times before.

I am one, and I recognize others. This sort of plausibly-deniable bigotry is very common among the educated, intelligent, male-dominated societies in which I did my school and professional work. Annie is accustomed to this. Thus she shrugged off the insult, even though we both saw it, and stayed focused on the point.

She even argued his side to me.
 

SunnyJim

Well-Known Member
You didn't read the Loquacious thread where I did Annie the same way ... apparently praising her while slipping her the hidden blade. I can't show it to you because I colluded with Loquacious to destroy the evidence. Were this an isolated incident, I could rent your kind but misplaced remark. However the way i have hurt and driven off the other women in my life is a tale I don't tell ... but which confirms my status as a misogynist. I've accepted the thirty pieces of silver many times before.

I am one, and I recognize others. This sort of plausibly-deniable bigotry is very common among the educated, intelligent, male-dominated societies in which I did my school and professional work. Annie is accustomed to this. Thus she shrugged off the insult, even though we both saw it, and stayed focused on the point.

She even argued his side to me.
Then I would add that self-reflection is important, provided it leads to some positive change. Better to accept and correct your character flaws than to deny they exist.

You seem like a gent to me. Annie agrees, I'm sure, as does Tyler. It's possible that we all misrepresent ourselves inadvertently with poorly timed jokes/flippant comments from time to time. I have no doubt that both you and Tyler would apologize to anyone who felt genuinely victimized by anything either of you posted on these boards.

I should probably leave it at that. I'm not trying to cause any waves.
 

Grandpapy

Well-Known Member
This is wonderful, in a life and death situation I just lost 1/100 of a sec of decision making time because of this thread being recalled in my time of need. Thanks. :)

I can only hope the hereditary traits that I have no control over, kick in and override my best thinking. It's only after that type of event I'm able Question Everything.


 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Sorry that is not correct the way I learned logic. If A then 7 it does not require exclusivity that would be an IFF statement.

I actually took your arguments quite seriously and was impressed with your knowledge and understanding of the subject. Since I take massive amounts of cannabis to keep the chronic pain away I easily miss things. Therefore I decided to take some time, come completely off the cannabis, and make sure I was understanding your argument.
I do not doubt your sincerity. You can search youtube for examples of the many iterations of the Wason selection task. Although I chose a slightly different rule, I think you'll see they all operate the same. I'm curious if you have a problem with just my version, or all versions. Perhaps there is something wrong in the way I set it up, but I don't see it.



Et tu, I was going to concede a point and ask a question but I won't bother you with my lack of erudition. In my field the person who got insulting first lost the argument no matter their content.
I am a bit surprised that you would find this insulting. I did not mean to suggest that
cannabineer was the only person worthy of reply. As far as I knew, I had addressed your latest comment and was waiting for your rebuttal. Am I correct that this was the nature of your offense, or am I missing something?
 
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mr sunshine

Well-Known Member
A "let's watch the drama" meme instead of substantive discussion of the logic/bias issues. When I combine this with your recent defense of Pad, who has repeatedly been outed as a serious hater of women ... I see you slyly hooking your boxcar to the misogyny train.

It hurts for two reasons. The lesser is that it hurts to see that I gravitated toward misogynistic male friends, and that says something about me. I am only beginning to admit how much I concealed my own misogyny behind the social forms.

I will leave the identification of the greater reason as an exercise for the reader.
Yea, but are you winning? I'd really like to know, I'm a little lost here.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I am amazed that you ignored the person who brought the argument most precisely and concisely. Annie argued with you by every rule of rational and objective discourse, and she addressed all your points respectfully and insightfully. Your flat-out ignoring her speaks to your bias. I am seeing a pattern in you that is familiar to me, one that I have seen in others who will conceal and not admit their misogyny. You brought the sort of insult usually only academics deploy and recognize, insult to a plainly-capable and engaged boardmate who brought high-value discussion of the exact topic that interested you. I believe that the difference is the gender of your interlocutor. Boys' clubhouse! No stinky girls!
This is getting a bit ridiculous. You and I have had enough exchanges in the past, including disagreements, that I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt. I assume that Annie is c2g, and as I explained to her, as far as I knew, I was awaiting a reply. Perhaps I am missing something.

In any case, I had no idea of her gender until you pointed it out yesterday. And since then, I haven't thought much about it. I will admit to being a bit focused on your arguments, but I suspect that is because I am familiar with you from back in the day. If you look back in the thread you'll see that I, at first, was even confusing c2g with cannacat. I asked CC "So, do you have another guess as to the error the meme refers to?" When in actuality it was c2g who gave the first answer. (https://www.rollitup.org/t/is-the-world-flat-the-flatlanders-theory.895220/page-188#post-12667266)

As you may or may not know, I run an FB page where we discuss these things constantly, and my partner admin is a 26y/o female from London. She has a MSc with a focus on cognitive anthropology, and has taught me loads of stuff. To be honest, I don't think about her gender much either. She is just someone I respect and recognize as being very capable in these subjects who happens to be female. When I write blog posts I refuse to post them until she has reviewed my work. While I am sure there are some aspects of my being which are misogynist without my realizing it, I thoroughly reject the accusation that I have an attitude of science or academia being only a boys club.

I wonder if this is not an example of the fundamental attribution error. You seem to be attributing to prejudice what can be explained as confusion and unfamiliarity, or perhaps I have just failed to see your point.

"In social psychology, the fundamental attribution error is the tendency for people to place an undue emphasis on internal characteristics (personality) to explain someone else's behavior in a given situation rather than considering the situation's external factors."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
I am disappointed in you Tyler. I don't throw memes at someone who is legitimately working on understanding a point. You would have shown less bias by simply elaborating from another angle where, you felt, I was missing the point instead of meme throwing.
Hey Annie. My silly meme had nothing to do with you, as your last exchange with Heis was a couple of pages before I posted that. Bear and Heis were in the middle of their exchange, which I found both interesting and refreshing not only because they are both powerhouse intellects, but I found Bear's accusations of dishonesty toward Heis quite baffling. Afaik, Heis has never once shown any dishonesty in the six years he and I have been members. To my mind he is a seeker of truth above all else, and has always been shown to put his feelings aside in the process of finding it in any situation. That's a big part of what makes him so powerful and effective. Bear should know this, as he was a regular in S&S&P back in the day, and had many exchanges with Heis as we all did. I could not see at all what Bear was claiming to see in Heis' posts, so in an attempt to break the current tension I tried to be funny, which obviously failed miserably. I probably would not have done this if we were back in S&S&P or in a serious subforum, but this is TNT where things seem much more relaxed and informal. I have nothing but respect and admiration for your personality and your great mind, and I hope this post clears up any misconceptions to the contrary...
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
A "let's watch the drama" meme instead of substantive discussion of the logic/bias issues. When I combine this with your recent defense of Pad, who has repeatedly been outed as a serious hater of women ... I see you slyly hooking your boxcar to the misogyny train.
I am so confused, especially by your accusations of misogyny. I believe I explained myself and my perspective well in the thread in which I came to Pad's defense, and you seemed to be okay with my explanation. This coupled with the fact that you were the first person to give a 'like' to my meme in question, that was placed in the middle of your exchange with Heis (Annie's last exchange with him was pages back) as a silly tension breaker, makes me question what is really going on with you. In the first instance I was defending a long time friend who was being labeled incorrectly imo, and this second instance of inserting a harmless meme into a current exchange between two male intellectuals. I fail to see the link to misogyny. I have been through very similar exchanges with Heis over the years, and the logic of my arguments to him were VERY similar to what I witnessed from you. Being my philosophical better, Heis and his thoughtful and thorough rebuttals have corrected my thinking in many areas, and have taught me a great deal. I will always be grateful to him for the time and effort he spent on me. I thought we both knew that his integrity and sincerity were beyond reproach, I am surprised to see this is not the case...

It hurts for two reasons. The lesser is that it hurts to see that I gravitated toward misogynistic male friends, and that says something about me. I am only beginning to admit how much I concealed my own misogyny behind the social forms.
I think it is very brave of you to admit your own shortcomings and misogyny, and I hate to play any part in your pain. That was never my intent. It seems that your opinion of me may be partly due to the fundamental attribution error (as Heis pointed out), or the phenomena of, 'There's something about that guy I just can't stand about me.' I think you may be attributing characteristics to some folks that don't actually exist...

I will leave the identification of the greater reason as an exercise for the reader.
I'm cool with that, I think these guys know me well enough to make the right call regarding my character...
 
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Slipup420

Member
Tyler durden is a kid with throwing memes like check me out i am so cool he is lost in his own world of knowing nothing but feels secure when posting memes and of course getting a like

We are only told what the governmentt allows media to tell us,Censor ship at its finest.
how many people actually have been out of space to see earth ?? how are we to really know what they tell us ?? how many times has a scientist theory been proved wrong ?? lots of times
is there Aliens visiting the earth ??? is earth on course with a meteor that will kill us all ?? these are things we will never know , they will not tell us
We all were born with lies ,, Better be good or Santa will not bring you any presents , tooth fairy etc..
1969 moon landings although it looked real so does most movies don't you think ?? but is it
I can guess the earth is round just by looking at the moon, one might say ok were round s well but are we really ?
Who the fuck really knows i just watched a Space X last week dump a satelite into space and land back down on a ship it went up unloaded cargo and came straight down and landed WTF if earth is rotating this would mean as soon as the ship left the ship the ship will no longer be there its moving by the time ship unloaded cargo ship would of been long gone but it sure looked like it came straight down and landed to funny really
And also why is it that even private aerospace companies have NASA or EU aerospace involved check it out not one private space company does anything with out NASA or EU space involvement its one big Cover up ..
Russia being the first to reach our outer most atmosphere knew it was a loss cause no man can survive Actual SPACE were trapped here and never will be able to leave
Space is to harsh for us but USA made it to the moon lol
Like i said amazing how the film crew was on the moon before the landings with pictures of Apollo landing
When we look at the moons of mars ?? how come its not round just saying
Its all a big lie
And if its round or flat who really cares truth is were stuck here end of story images.jpg
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
In the original example the two biased conclusions were "animal" and "serial killer". Statistically animals are much, much more common than serial killers.
The animals example is actually meant to be a control. The point intended was that on an average night watching an average program we are likely to hear a noise and suspect the most likely culprit. This, of course, depends on where you live. Animals may not be likely if you live in a big city. However, after the stimulus of watching a horror movie (presumably about a serial killer) we may be motivated to suspect the unlikely situation of a serial killer being outside our door. Most of us would immediately recognize the unlikeliness and not be inclined to call the police, but there is that gut feeling nagging us. And that's what biases are- intuitive notions.

If you do decide that the availability heuristic is the most appropriate answer, I expect you will also acknowledge that my defense was not due to stubbornness and not grounded in sophistry. While it's true that these categories are actually impositions stemming from our need to organize things, and that nature cares not if she fits neatly into our classifications, these terms were meant to describe specific phenomena. The differences can be subtle and confusing, and I think you should thoroughly consider that before you go looking for, what seems like to me, boogiemen.
 
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