Light Intensity; LED vs HID

[BM9AGS]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/sj/index.php

 

[RM3]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-03/sj/index.php
View attachment 3716084

It's a good thing that plants don't understand math IMO

 

[TheChemist77]

i know nothing about light distribution at a distance,,,but been growing for many years.. after 20+ years running hps/mh 400's,600's and 1k's i found 2 600w hps over my area a 4'x6' table worked best..in 2013 i bought a few ceramic fixtures, 315 watt cmh's,, put them over my table and found that 2 315 watt cmh produced better gram per watts than hps ever got me..then i put 3 315's over the table for a total of 945watts and yielded more than 2 600 watt hps over the same area..in short with hps i averaged a gram per watt but never much more,, with the ceramic lamps im now getting 1.5 gram per watt if not more with every run...both are considered hid lights but ceramics are far more efficient than hps...from what ive seen led is better than both in terms of gram per watt and that is what all us growers are after,,gram per watt and better product...

 

[BM9AGS]

It's a good thing that plants don't understand math IMO

I believe they do

Just my scale of "ideal PPFD" is off.

 

[JorgeGonzales]

Deals with cameras but no difference.

"Light intensity drops rather heavily".....

You know what man? Everybody understand how light spreads, it's just the conclusions you are making that go a bit off the rails. A 50W light has the same penetration as a 1000W light, over a much smaller area. That's it. It's spelled out in your reef screenshot above. Read if carefully, and if you understand that PPFD is photon density, you'll get it.

 

[Greengenes707]

https://www.rollitup.org/t/co2-fixation-calculation-tool-for-cobs.896232/

 

[RM3]

I believe they do

Just my scale of "ideal PPFD" is off.

I get 18 inch cola's with T5's if the plants understood math I'm not sure it would work LOL

 

[JorgeGonzales]

https://www.rollitup.org/t/co2-fixation-calculation-tool-for-cobs.896232/

Cool idea, SDS is a goldmine of awesomeness, but then I read shit like this and my mind is blown http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/4/684.full

The 3500k 80CRI CXBs everybody uses has a large relative amount of green-yellow and still grows like a sonofabitch. I wonder if it's because of, not despite, the healthy amount of green light, photomorphogenesis be damned.

Anyway. That's a real discussion about canopy penetration to be had there.

 

[churchhaze]

Uh, put the 400W over a smaller footprint. Gosh, same PPFD as the 600W. Smaller area. Have you ever used a flashlight in your life? Are you an alien?

They also overlap. If he was an alien he'd probably be smart. I grew with 2x400W HPS for years... (before that I grew with 1x400W... It was so counterproductive it actually sucked in photons rather than emitting them)

 

[PurpleBuz]

Cool idea, SDS is a goldmine of awesomeness, but then I read shit like this and my mind is blown http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/4/684.full

The 3500k 80CRI CXBs everybody uses has a large relative amount of green-yellow and still grows like a sonofabitch. I wonder if it's because of, not despite, the healthy amount of green light, photomorphogenesis be damned.

Anyway. That's a real discussion about canopy penetration to be had there.

Articles like this are one of the primary reasons I scoff at people that insist green is evil because they read an article studying addition of green to red/blue spectrum under low light shade levels.
Thanks for posting I can never find the studies when I need them

SDS isn't completely off track since he starts with a McCree curve.

 

[MrTwist1]

They also overlap. If he was an alien he'd probably be smart. I grew with 2x400W HPS for years... (before that I grew with 1x400W... It was so counterproductive it actually sucked in photons rather than emitting them)

Bahahaha this made me laugh out loud.

 

[Hybridway]

The one thing I'd like to retract is the 400 counterproductive statement.
I like that comment though about it sucking photons. Good stuff.
When you're trying to achieve maxamium yields it is not going to do that for you.

 

[JorgeGonzales]

The one thing I'd like to retract is the 400 counterproductive statement.
I like that comment though about it sucking photons. Good stuff.
When you're trying to achieve maxamium yields it is not going to do that for you.

PPFD is intensity. You keep confusing terms, and making claims based on half-baked notions of intensity, penetration, and lots of other words I use when talking about your mom. Anyway...

PPF is Photosynthetic Photon Flux, it's measured in umol/s. A "umol" is a micromole of photons, which is one millionth of an Avogadro constant of photons, about 62 quadrillion. When a manufacturer says a fixture outputs 500 PPF, it doesn't mean it's crap, because PPFD is Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density aka PPF/area in meters squared aka umol/s/m2.

It's likely your SE-250 is only around 500 PPF, as an example, less than a good 400W HPS. That probably horrifies you, but it's a fine light used appropriately. If it's hung over an area of less than a meter squared, the PPFD will be higher than the PPF because again PPFD is PPF divided by area in meters squared.

For instance, covering half a meter squared, a 500 PPF light would measure 1000 PPFD average over it's footprint. And it would have the same intensity as any other light delivering 1000 PPFD to that same area, because that's what PPFD is. Intensity.

This is why the "intensity" of a 400W light can match that of a 1000W light. You just move it closer, ignoring optics and lumpy spread. It's light output divided by area, that's it. No fancy reflective tent tricks, that wasn't the point of my earlier example. Although hopefully you have reflective walls, as well. Be wasteful not to.

I hope this was explained reasonably well. This is really basic knowledge about something that mostly hurts my head, but I tried.

 

[testiclees]

It's a good thing that plants don't understand math IMO

Who could believe an ant in theory? a giraffe in blueprint? Ten thousand doctors of what's possible could reason half the jungle out of being

 

[BM9AGS]

PPFD is intensity. You keep confusing terms, and making claims based on half-baked notions of intensity, penetration, and lots of other words I use when talking about your mom. Anyway...

PPF is Photosynthetic Photon Flux, it's measured in umol/s. A "umol" is a micromole of photons, which is one millionth of an Avogadro constant of photons, about 62 quadrillion. When a manufacturer says a fixture outputs 500 PPF, it doesn't mean it's crap, because PPFD is Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density aka PPF/area in meters squared aka umol/s/m2.

It's likely your SE-250 is only around 500 PPF, as an example, less than a good 400W HPS. That probably horrifies you, but it's a fine light used appropriately. If it's hung over an area of less than a meter squared, the PPFD will be higher than the PPF because again PPFD is PPF divided by area in meters squared.

For instance, covering half a meter squared, a 500 PPF light would measure 1000 PPFD average over it's footprint. And it would have the same intensity as any other light delivering 1000 PPFD to that same area, because that's what PPFD is. Intensity.

This is why the "intensity" of a 400W light can match that of a 1000W light. You just move it closer, ignoring optics and lumpy spread. It's light output divided by area, that's it. No fancy reflective tent tricks, that wasn't the point of my earlier example. Although hopefully you have reflective walls, as well. Be wasteful not to.

I hope this was explained reasonably well. This is really basic knowledge about something that mostly hurts my head, but I tried.

Awesome for me. Thanks for your time and considerable reply!

 

[OneHitDone]

I can hear the Haters already but as crude as this vid is it shows pretty well the drop off many have been talking about in this thread

 

[Atulip]

OK guys I'm back with more troll food. Did I miss anything? Or are we still just explaining that ppfd is merely a single point measurement. And that light is light regardless of source...

In these fancy math calculations. Do you calculate the distance the light travels from the top of the bulb, to the reflector and back down to the canopy? Or just bulb to canopy?


I did catch the amare plug. "More intensity than a 1000w hps" xD

Mars Hydro 1200 has the intensity of a 1000w HPS for half the price of Amare SE450!

 

[monkeychief]

[ QUOTE="Atulip, post: 12720458, member: 920612"]OK guys I'm back with more troll food. Did I miss anything? Or are we still just explaining that ppfd is merely a single point measurement. And that light is light regardless of source...

In these fancy math calculations. Do you calculate the distance the light travels from the top of the bulb, to the reflector and back down to the canopy? Or just bulb to canopy?


I did catch the amare plug. "More intensity than a 1000w hps" xD

Mars Hydro 1200 has the intensity of a 1000w HPS for half the price of Amare SE450!
View attachment 3716818

[/QUOTE]

This is giving the Mars Hydro a hella benefit of doubt since it's a crappy copy of a crappy Blackdog. They both have significant intensity drop due to no secondary lenses by 24" and beyond thanks to light's inverse square buddy. The BD XL-U is 750 actual watts and Mars1200 is ~560w, by the way. Even their original SE350 running CXB2530's will outpar these two. I don't know where u got your 18" mars par numbers, but here's growershouse numbers for the Blackdogs. The mars, if they're even as good as the Blackdogs is ~1/3 of the SE450@24" with no lenses at half the price using shit Epileds, delivers less than a 1/4 of the SE450 with lenses @24". But then again, Amare's full of shit, using mystery chips right? lol.. Life's too short for BS....

Please excuse the double post of Amare's SE350 without lenses. Too busy to figure how to delete it now.

 

[Hybridway]

PPFD is intensity. You keep confusing terms, and making claims based on half-baked notions of intensity, penetration, and lots of other words I use when talking about your mom. Anyway...

PPF is Photosynthetic Photon Flux, it's measured in umol/s. A "umol" is a micromole of photons, which is one millionth of an Avogadro constant of photons, about 62 quadrillion. When a manufacturer says a fixture outputs 500 PPF, it doesn't mean it's crap, because PPFD is Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density aka PPF/area in meters squared aka umol/s/m2.

It's likely your SE-250 is only around 500 PPF, as an example, less than a good 400W HPS. That probably horrifies you, but it's a fine light used appropriately. If it's hung over an area of less than a meter squared, the PPFD will be higher than the PPF because again PPFD is PPF divided by area in meters squared.

For instance, covering half a meter squared, a 500 PPF light would measure 1000 PPFD average over it's footprint. And it would have the same intensity as any other light delivering 1000 PPFD to that same area, because that's what PPFD is. Intensity.

This is why the "intensity" of a 400W light can match that of a 1000W light. You just move it closer, ignoring optics and lumpy spread. It's light output divided by area, that's it. No fancy reflective tent tricks, that wasn't the point of my earlier example. Although hopefully you have reflective walls, as well. Be wasteful not to.

I hope this was explained reasonably well. This is really basic knowledge about something that mostly hurts my head, but I tried.

Ok! So are you ready to learn something now? Please try to have an open mind as it seems you not doing so is effecting what others are learning or not learning. Thank you!
I ask though, what have I said that leads to believe I do not understand & have no concept of PAR measurements? Your explanations were pretty good though.
I learned about that stuff initially from the BML web-site 18 months-2yrs ago & have applied it to actually growing.
N yes, if one was to get technical & drop a 400 in a lil white box 6" off a meter then it may give you 1000w #'s. Keep in mind, that is not ever going to be a real growing scenario though, & that is why your math does not always apply to actually growing in real life.
Ok, to answer your questions now: (help me learn to edit please)This is from Nov of "15" . I know it's hard for you to wrap your brain around. If you would like further explanations as to why Amares put out so much more light then others, you could go to their site & read, go to numerous threads w/ growers using them, or ask me nicely. It's all the truth n the truth only my man.
Your big words used when banging my mom are only big words unless you know how to apply them to growing pot. You do grow pot right?
Again, I will say to those whom care to grow for large yields or to their plants potential. In the HPS world, growing in a room, not a 3'x3'tent, the only bulbs or fixtures used for primary lighting are 600watts & up. The reason being is they put out enough intensity to flower marijuana, which is a very high light plant.
Spreading out multiple light sources will help big-time. And if each one is a 600 watt HPS or more equivalent, at least in photons (don't have to have spread when using multiple sources) then you will be growing to your plants potential which will significantly increase your yeilds, ROI (if your trying to), profits, head jars, ect......ect......
Never wanted to bring Amare into this but seeing how you did, I will show you that even their smallest lights are adequate for spreading out based on the information I supplied you with.
Oh, and BTW! The whole reason anyone here uses the example of the "Inverse square Of light law" is because Amare taught everyone about it on their web-site almost 2 years ago.
As far as I know, They were the first company to make what they call their "SolarSystem" which allows you to purchase any array of lights from them, connect them with H brackets, and use the "Inverse Square Laws" to your advantage as a grower. I'm sure another company had brackets to connect their lights though. They were the first to promote this law openly that I am aware of.
Every time you hate on Amare, all you do is make them shine guys! All good though!

Thank you for asking me to rejoin this conversation. I like to help others achieve max yield using my actual growing experience. Now that I just had surgery, I have the time to contest such silly statements like the ones some have made here.

I am not a scientist or a math wiz. Just a grower using sense & logic based off the info we are all provided to grow max yields.
Peace n thanks again for listening!

 

[Hybridway]

View attachment 3716948 View attachment 3716955 View attachment 3716946 [ View attachment 3716936 View attachment 3716947 View attachment 3716955 View attachment 3716957 QUOTE="Atulip, post: 12720458, member: 920612"]OK guys I'm back with more troll food. Did I miss anything? Or are we still just explaining that ppfd is merely a single point measurement. And that light is light regardless of source...

In these fancy math calculations. Do you calculate the distance the light travels from the top of the bulb, to the reflector and back down to the canopy? Or just bulb to canopy?


I did catch the amare plug. "More intensity than a 1000w hps" xD

Mars Hydro 1200 has the intensity of a 1000w HPS for half the price of Amare SE450!
View attachment 3716818

This is giving the Mars Hydro a hella benefit of doubt since it's a crappy copy of a crappy Blackdog. They both have significant intensity drop due to no secondary lenses by 24" and beyond thanks to light's inverse square buddy. Even their original SE350 will outpar these two. I don't know where u got your 18" mars par numbers, but here's growershouse numbers for the Blackdogs. The mars, if they're even as good as the Blackdogs is ~1/3 of the SE450@24" with no lenses at half the price using shit Epileds and less than a 1/4 of the SE450 with lenses. But then again, Amare's full of shit, using mystery chips right? lol.. Life's too short for BS....

Please excuse the double post of Amare's SE350 without lenses. Too busy to figure how to delete it now.[/QUOTE]

They do not care about truths, only arguing.
Good post BTW!