Claw Leaf: how do I remedy? Suspect N overdose

Perception

Perception

Well-Known Member
Hi! I'm new to the forums, although have been lurking for some time. Had some questions about how to remedy a claw leaf problem that I believe is due to a surplus of nitrogen.

I'm on day 30 of flowering 3 plants (mystery seeds) indoors in a 3'x3' open air Mylar tent with an LEC315 3100K light. Here are some details:

- Organic soil in 3 gallon smart pots.
- 50% Fox Farm OF, 50% Maxfields organic potting soil (a Denver based organics supplier)
- no added nutes during seedling/veg
- Fox Farms Big Bloom liquid added every other watering during flowering
- Added bag-recommended dose of Happy Frog Fruit & Flower fertilizer (5-8-4) during transplant to 3gal pots on day 15 of flowering.
- Tap water: 70ppm (too low!)
- soil PH reading slightly above 7.0
- Soil nitrogen too high. "Surplus" level on Rapid Test kit.
- Canopy temp around 80F with lights on.

I'm pretty sure that my claw leaf problem is from the surplus of Nitrogen, and slightly high PH. I don't believe that it's an overwatering problem - I'm an experienced indoor plant grower (not Mj). My question is: how does my water PPM play in to this equation? I don't want to "flush" the plants because the roots aren't fully established in the 3 gal pots, and I'm afraid it would oversaturate the soil. I set up a bubble bucket last night for my water, and I'll be adjusting the PPM and PH before the next watering.

I'm wondering if the higher PPM will help wash some of the nitrogen out, or, what my other options might be to balance things out? Thanks!
 

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Perception

Perception

Well-Known Member
RM3 - thanks. I agree that if it is too much N, that it's minimal.

I was having higher temps in my upper canopy (85 - 87F), but about 5 days ago I raised my lamp up higher and canopy temps are now staying around 80-81F. Is this still too high? Was having high humidity and ambient air temp problems up until about a week ago, but started running house fan during light cycles and that fixed the problem. Humidity doesn't go above 50%.

Watering has been tough with the most recent pot transplant. I feel like it's either oversaturated, or bone dry. I've been trying to err on the side of drier, but they so easily go bone dry, and I walk in at the end of the light cycle to drooping fan leaves.
 
Bugeye

Bugeye

Well-Known Member
Perception said:
Bugeye - "If" I actually have too much N, why is low PPM good?
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Not related to excess N, just good to have low ppm in tap water vs high ppm. The mineral content in tap water is usually in a large molecule form that is difficult for your plant to take up. But it will still raise your overall ppm level and that can be stressful when it gets too high.
 
Perception

Perception

Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone.

Bugeye - I only added fertilizer once, about two weeks ago, when up-potting to 3gallon pots. I HAVE been using FF Big Bloom every other watering, and their website says it is ( 0 - 0.5 - 0.7 ), although I'm wondering if it is still affecting the nitrogen that is already in the soil.
 
Perception

Perception

Well-Known Member
Bobtokes - YES! The bottom leaves are slightly thin and floppy. Only 1 or 2 leaves at bottom of plant though - it doesn't persist beyond that.
 
Bugeye

Bugeye

Well-Known Member
Yeah, no need to nute them when you pot up in soil, the new soil is the feeding. Just go water only for a bit.
 
bobtokes

bobtokes

Well-Known Member
when i've gone over the top with N i give um 1/2 dose of 13/14 for a week or so but as your plants havent rooted the pots out yet and you have fresh compost i prolly wounldnt feed for a couple of weeks, just plain ph'ed water,
 
Perception

Perception

Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for the comments.

I had a long talk with the owner of a local grow shop, and he felt pretty confident that the symptoms were a result of the Fox Farm Ocean Forest being too hot to begin with (like Bugeye's last comment). So I'm just going to let things fly and not add any more N. He recommended re-using the same FFOF soil on my next grow, as the organic nutrients will be further broken down and not as hot.

He did give me the following two supplements to help. The mychorizzea is supposed to digest the excess N, and he said the kelp has enzymes that will help break down any excess nutrients (not to mention a nice boost of K, similar to Bobtokes's last comment).
 

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mduke

Well-Known Member
apply humid acid to reduce nutrient stress.
and it might seem counterintuitive but next time you water add 1 gram per gal of epsom salts. The magnesium and sulfur will both be helpful to convert the excess free nitrates into complete proteins.
 
M

mduke

Well-Known Member
if you have excess N in the plant there's no way of getting it out by flushing. Sure you could flush all salts out of root zone and create a gradient across the root membranes and then maybe N will decrease in plant, but at that point so will everything else that can and your plant will just be more stressed for it.

if however you can assist the plant in using that nitrogen to form needed compounds you're N excess will go away. And to be clear you don't have toxicity, you have excess. The difference is the ability of the plant to respond to one vs the other. thats where adding the epsom salts come in as it supplies the two most important elements to help the plant form complete proteins (adding Molybdenum would be helpful too but you've most likely have enough available) . the humid acid will also help the plant with maintaining turgor pressure and ultimately respiration in a hotter than ideal room.
 
Perception

Perception

Well-Known Member
Sweet, thanks mduke. Good point - excess, not toxicity. This late in flower, I'm probably not going to mess with them anymore. From the looks of things, I think I'm within a couple weeks of harvest.

I've learned so much in the last few weeks though, and will apply this knowledge in future. I've been inspired to start using a ROLS technique, so I'll be re-using this FFOF soil, and hopefully it won't be as hot next time around.
 
Tim Fox

Tim Fox

Well-Known Member
i have grown several crops now,, with FFOF,, the last 2 grows i went start to finish with water only,,
3 grows ago i grew in ffof and I added liquid ferts and I too got the dreaded claw,, all i did was go water only the rest of the grow and it turned around just fine,,, ffof is made for those who want to grow indoors and not have to buy all the fancy snake oils,,,
on my last grow I did as some happy frog fruit and flower,, its a dry organic nute,, you mix it into the top soil, so there are no salts and no lock outs, its made by the same people,,,
thats my 2 cents
 
StoneyMcphatter

StoneyMcphatter

Well-Known Member
I grow my plants with Fox farms ocean forest and I'll say its a great soil. Few things to consider though, its an organic soil which means unless yer brewing teas then you should be mixing it with organic nutes beforehand if you plan to veg for a long time. Other wise from start to finish you only need to use water. Ya don't even need to PH the water. The problems arise when people want to use synthetic ferts with FFOF and add even more chemicals to ph the solution which I will never do.
 
Tim Fox

Tim Fox

Well-Known Member
StoneyMcphatter said:
I grow my plants with Fox farms ocean forest and I'll say its a great soil. Few things to consider though, its an organic soil which means unless yer brewing teas then you should be mixing it with organic nutes beforehand if you plan to veg for a long time. Other wise from start to finish you only need to use water. Ya don't even need to PH the water. The problems arise when people want to use synthetic ferts with FFOF and add even more chemicals to ph the solution which I will never do.
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Agreed well said
 
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