Ruwtz Maneuver Vol 1
- Thread starter ruwtz
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ruwtz
Well-Known Member
Cheers for the pH advice - I will definitely keep an eye on this.
I go with Recharge and Rhizo for bennies - I used both in soil to great effect from day one and everyone loves a healthy root zone so i'm keeping this up.
I was of the understanding CalMag was needed in rockwool, and that GH trio isnt formulated for this, hence the addition. I have no problem cutting out though if thats the consensus.
I'll be going Jack's for future cycles/when the GH is used up, but I have issues with Lucas on paper. Definitely down for KISS though so thanks for the tips!
Thank you for jumping in, I appreciate your input. I'm surprised there aren't more comments about these lesions from folks, but maybe people don't work on a Sunday.
ruwtz
Well-Known Member
I think you might be right, based on lesion signs at least, although a micro deficiency at this early stage seems highly unlikely, but not out of the question. I haven't seen anything like that before, i'll say that.
Also my pH hasn't been rigid at 6.5, I do let it swing, albeit arbitrarily. I'll have to check my notes to see if any patterns show.
Wisher2
Well-Known Member
gh 3 part has I believe 5% cal in it
coco needs extra cal but not rockwool
bennies are good......but soil and hydro are 2 differ worlds
some clash the 2 with success
but not many
for bennies....hydroguard for me.....@2 ml a gallon......works like a charm
manganese cant be absorbed above 6.0 in aqua culture
I tried Rhizoblast......effed my shit up and made my ph go crazy
never heard of recharge but I wouldnt use hormex???rooting compound??? or something differ
yeah I am not to fond of Lucas just say I have seen it done
but again.....soil and hydro....2 differ worlds......bennies dont really mean much in hydro
I know people will argue with me on that
but they get washed away....essentially throwing your money away constantly reintroducing them.....enzymes work much better at conditioning the root zone
I promise....what is great for soil.....not so much in the H2o culture department
I am no master gardener...but have been around the block
grew organic for years....switched to hydro when I came indoors....steep learning curve.....once I realized sterility is key to a productive hydroponic setup.....it was smooth sailing from there
no bennies....no extras....just the basics
once I got a foot hold then I began to up the anty....silica, p/k booster during week 3 of flower
steady diet....no fluxuations.....slow decline of nutrients @ the end....all she wrote
Wisher2
Well-Known Member
very true
albiet.....I believe if he reduces his ph he wouldnt need the extra calmg as gh has 5% cal
and since he is running in rockwool...it shouldnt be an issue
but highly agree with ph
Wisher2
Well-Known Member
ok....
so......
I have just re-read over the entire thread
#1. were you able to find out where the ants came from....and did you fix that?
#2. I see you are using tap water....not the greatest when it comes to hydro and def not a good match for any kind of bennies
#3. how many times a day are you watering?
my suggestions.....
1. get a cheap RO system along with a nice 55gal drum for storage...and a couple of 55gal trash cans to store the waste water for the back yard plants
2. make sure there are absolutely no ants...or anything else in there bug wise
3. start watering 3 times a day for 15-30 min at a time
dont worry about the rockwool being soaked...if its dry...more then likely your plant will be dead.....
each media has a learning curve...coming from soil...it is hard to break the habits we have created as soil growers...i.e. bennies....wet and dry cycles etc...( not that hydro dosnt...just different).but water culture is a completely differ world and way of thinking.....
and again....I would drop everything but the 3 part....until your plants start looking better....you can tinker with bennies any time......
again if you want a bennie for hydro that works perfectly I suggest hydroguard....
come to think of it....when you next change your res and refresh...I would highly suggest eliminating rhizoblast....I believe when I tried it....it created the same type of spots on my leaves....I was growing hot peppers at the time....it wont hurt to try....I know it may go against everything you believe but I would only try to steer you in the right direction...
your build out is so badass I would hate for your first run to flop do to some bs....
IMO if you flush your system and reset with ro and the 3 part running around 1.0-1.4 ec @ a ph of 5.5-5.8.....your plants will begin to explode
I would also suggest clipping those bad leaves off as to see it any new leasions begin
happy growing and best of luck sincerely
so......
I have just re-read over the entire thread
#1. were you able to find out where the ants came from....and did you fix that?
#2. I see you are using tap water....not the greatest when it comes to hydro and def not a good match for any kind of bennies
#3. how many times a day are you watering?
my suggestions.....
1. get a cheap RO system along with a nice 55gal drum for storage...and a couple of 55gal trash cans to store the waste water for the back yard plants
2. make sure there are absolutely no ants...or anything else in there bug wise
3. start watering 3 times a day for 15-30 min at a time
dont worry about the rockwool being soaked...if its dry...more then likely your plant will be dead.....
each media has a learning curve...coming from soil...it is hard to break the habits we have created as soil growers...i.e. bennies....wet and dry cycles etc...( not that hydro dosnt...just different).but water culture is a completely differ world and way of thinking.....
and again....I would drop everything but the 3 part....until your plants start looking better....you can tinker with bennies any time......
again if you want a bennie for hydro that works perfectly I suggest hydroguard....
come to think of it....when you next change your res and refresh...I would highly suggest eliminating rhizoblast....I believe when I tried it....it created the same type of spots on my leaves....I was growing hot peppers at the time....it wont hurt to try....I know it may go against everything you believe but I would only try to steer you in the right direction...
your build out is so badass I would hate for your first run to flop do to some bs....
IMO if you flush your system and reset with ro and the 3 part running around 1.0-1.4 ec @ a ph of 5.5-5.8.....your plants will begin to explode
I would also suggest clipping those bad leaves off as to see it any new leasions begin
happy growing and best of luck sincerely
ruwtz
Well-Known Member
Thats quite an update to see at 5am when i'm getting up for lights-off humidity check, so thanks for continuing to look at my situation!
[1] ants have not been seen since, although I believe @ttystikk when he says this kind poses no risk and actually could be helpful in removing other pests which I will always have a keen eye out for;
[2] my tap water is fine, many great things have happened on tap water;
[3] I water as needed - currently at every 3-4 days - which is low since they are not uptaking/transpiring much due to night-time humidity issues. I believe this is a major issue which gets fixed today with arrival of a dehu for veg.
Thanks for your suggestions, here's my immediate feelings:
[1] RO is expensive and wasteful and I can't say i'm convinced this is absolutely necessary; in this room and at my home there's a long list of other priorities way ahead of RO, and I will worry about many other variables before i'm concerned about my tap water. I have acceptable ppm and, more crucially, low alkalinity - no problems here or for many other people in hydro in my area and beyond; our field worked exceptionally well before RO-mania gripped the grow house, no?;
[3] absolutely no way i'm going to be watering this system 3 times a day for 15mins at any other stage than well into flower, when its a whole different game. If I was to do this right now the blocks would be permanently saturated and roots just won't bother growing IMO, or worse, will choke. Not sure why this is your advice here??
I have been advised against flushing these blocks by my hydro guy who I trust and nobody here yet has challenged that advice so i'm not convinced of doing this just yet either; if there is something undesirable in my medium it would be showing itself in a way different to these symptoms, and why build a root zone culture if you're going to wash it all away? This is my logic at play, not experience, so if you feel like elaborating based on your experience then i'd like to hear it because this definitely is going against my soil habits for sure.
Your advice re nutes & bennies is the most logical and in the interests of KISS I will look to pair down for the next res change. I have Hydroguard and will swap this out for Rhizo, just to see, although fixing one thing at a time makes it easier to see if we're winning so will deal with lights-off humidity first and go from there.
Thanks again for your input and sorry if i'm short - its hella early...
ruwtz
Well-Known Member
PS> I checked my logs and pH has been swinging from 5.5 to 6.2, with this 6.5 feed an isolated event. Based on this I cannot see this being a manganese deficiency based on pH alone - the plants are still babies, Mn is required in such small amounts and pH has regularly been in the range.
I know from the pics it most closely matches manganese but I just can't see it with this info to hand.
Lets get lights-off humidity down, get the girls drinking properly, and see what happens, but don't let this simple plan stop anyone from discussing - i'm loving the contributions!
I know from the pics it most closely matches manganese but I just can't see it with this info to hand.
Lets get lights-off humidity down, get the girls drinking properly, and see what happens, but don't let this simple plan stop anyone from discussing - i'm loving the contributions!
Wisher2
Well-Known Member
so.....
night time humidity does not explain why your plants are NOT transpiring during the lights on cycle.....which you have stated was under control due to the AC
The only reason they wouldnt transpire during lights on cycle is if it is to hot and the stomata remains closed
as for watering cycles....my bad.....sorry
you should be watering at least once a day....time it just to when the water hits the drain tube and cycle off
this is a flood and drain setup correct?
or are you hand watering ?
the old addage that you water as needed dosent play a roll in hydroponics....at all
although flood and drain is not optimal for rockwool really should be used on a drip system until the roots blow out and then you can transfer to any style you want ie dwc ebb and flow etc.
rockwool should be watered until an optimal 15% runoff is attained.....using flood and drain is counter productive to the qualities of rockwool although on the advice of gro-dan ......if using flood and drain..... one should top irrigate once a week to flush built up salts from the media
as for the ants......any advice that ants are good.....is BAD ADVICE!!!!! ants carry fungual and bacterial diseases as well as farm aphids
so if they werent fire or cutter ants....and they came from outside....then they would be either carpenter which would be ready to eat your table or any number of garden ants whom farm aphids.......hydroponic = sterile
with flushing....what I meant by "Flush your system and reset" is exactly that.....run clean water through the entire setup and then reset the res with new nutrients and cycle that through
you arent building any kind of food web in hydroponics......the reservoir is the food web and rockwool is as sterile a media as you can get
as a matter of fact alot of rockwool hydroponic users run a small amount of chlorine in their res just to keep anything unwanted out.....
again this is not soil.....at all....
now if you were using say coco or promix in your flood and drain then I can see the use for bennies and building the root zone
if you are refering to a hydroponic store worker as your hydro guy......9 out of 10 dont have a clue about what they are saying...not to say he dosnt....
also what is "Root zone Culture"
again we are in a sterlie media...
as for RO water
RO is just easier to use in hydro because you have control of what you are putting in when you start from 0
as for a waste of money....it goes back to when you painted the walls
IMO dont go whole hog and then skimp on something so basic....as well ro is not wastefull...like I said use the waste water on your outdoor plants...like shrubs/veggies etc
the ro craze hit around the late 1600's during its discovery
I live in the cut flower industry...every facility has at least 50-100k worth of water filtration for there hydroponic setup....just saying
please I hope you dont take any of this the wrong way....
I wish you prosperity
http://www.besthydroponics101.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/revised_Hydroponics101-2.pdf
this might be helpfull to you
again.....my intentions are only to help you as I want only to see everyone succeed in this community
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ruwtz
Well-Known Member
Again, lots of stuff here, thank you. I get where you are coming from and I accept that I will have to concede some soil habits and attitudes if this setup is going to work. I'm running a lot of firsts here so I'm totally a sponge to solid information that can be corroborated and that makes good common sense.
[1] yes the ants have made me uneasy and I will be keeping a close eye and removing;
[2] table is flood & drain fed by a 55gal drum res and Pargro blocks on hydroton layer - a popular system as far as I can tell with effective results; looking to drip irrigate in flower but to be decided
[3] daily watering can get up to speed once humidity is under stabilized around the clock - currently water has nowhere to go due to low transpiration rates by night, so takeup is poor - I think saturating the blocks at this point would be detrimental until I can get this under control
[4] there is some function of transpiration, at least by day, evident in steady growth rates, it is just not explosive at this point
[5] "root zone culture" = root microbe symbiosis, the endorhizosphere, mycorrhizae, nitrobacteria, trichoderma, all of it is essential to root health in all styles of media/delivery systems
[6] i'm happy to consider flushing the system ahead of the next res change (end of the week) if more people agree this should be done; i'll be honest I don't see this as common practice nor has it been advised before now, but it does make good sense to me and would be done via top irrigation and drained to waste
[7] hydro store guy has "been there, done that", he knows my setup and we have a good relationship, although as with all people giving advice I have to pick and choose what I go with since so much is based on your own methods and experiences, same goes for here on RIU
[8] RO may well be easier but again i'm not convinced it is essential, and the cost output & waste water doesn't improve its appeal to me at this stage, regardless of who is using it or for how long. I will add that I do buy RO by the gallons occasionally and it is useful for foliar feeds, res top offs, flushes etc
Thanks for the pdf link - no new info for me here, but it is good to be reminded of the basics now and then, especially when in a rut.
All of your advice is taken in good faith and I genuinely appreciate your input. I do have habits to iron out and this setup has a long way to go before being ideal. I can be swayed by common sense ideas and a consensus of opinion supported by evidence will always appeal to me beyond theory or simply that which has worked well for one individual. There are so many variables in this game, so many ways to skin a cat, making wholesale changes doesn't fill me with confidence, but I definitely have a lot to think about here!
I would very much appreciate this exchange to continue and more voices in the convo would be great! I have nothing special going on here but I would like to try and make it more than your average grow.
Peace all,
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Wisher2
Well-Known Member
I suggest an experiment
take your worst lookin plant
sacrifice it
slowly cut through the block until you get to the roots....if there are roots growing .....
also....trim off all bad leaves of every plant and watch carefully to see if this spreads or is stabalized
top drip and flushing is recomended per Gro-Dan website
as for humidity
during the day....our plants transpire ....releasing moisture into the atmosphere
during the lights off period our plants respire
converting sugars to hormones etc...while still breathing in Co2 and exhaling o2
a good fan will help and some type of fresh air exchange
as I said previously.....what they sell to the public and what is true for rhyzospere is very differ
in a water culture you arent creating a true rhizophere.....you can research it if you would like.....things like hydroguard are told to reintroduce once a week...why? because in hydroponics the biolife dies....so you have to keep reintroducing it.....
or....you can run a true hydroponic system completely sterile....
running extremely small amounts of chlorine...killing any biology before it effects the rootzone....there is no synergy in hydroponics.....there are many products that are sold....like say recharge "safe for hydro" but only testimony for organic soil growing??
money down the drain....but what ever floats the raft....
endo and ecto break down mostly organics into usable soluble ions.....what are they gonna be breaking down with a chelated hydro mineral based nutrient solution?
enzymes will break down the expelled plant excrement along with dead root mass
there is no soil web with organic matter here....
again....I do hope some hydro guys chime in here
because this will never make sense....until you see it in action
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ruwtz
Well-Known Member
Isn't it the other way around during lights off? Plants exhale CO2 and consume O? This is why we run CO2 during the day only, as I understand it. I'd like to get this straight so I can keep taking your advice with confidence, know what i'm saying?!
I have ample oscillating fans and gas exchange in this big space is fine.
Lesions are persisting and actually are more like rusty brown spots on the middle and lower leaves, with some pale green/transparent spotting on newer leaves also. The plants are talking and I must listen.
Dehumidifier has been in for 24hrs running constantly and I have been monitoring through lights off and this morning. It has pulled night humidity down from mid 80's to a steady 50%, which I am sure will help all round.
I flooded this morning from a pH5.8/700ppm res (of this tap water = 280ppm), I have just tested the runoff for the first time by draining a cube and the results are quite telling. From oldest to youngest in veg the collective results were:
24 Carat = 6.7/1000ppm
Larry OG = 6.3/1600ppm!!!
Blackjack = 6.4/1130ppm
Gorilla Glue = 6.2/790ppm
I think that flush is definitely in order, wouldn't you say??
Is it generally accepted that tap water and tap water alone is pushing pH back up in the runoff? Or could it be as @Wisher2 suggests any of the bennies such as Rhizoblast?
I understand that high ppm might well be explained as concentrated salts due to low take-up by young and slow developing plants, hence the flush is possibly essential at this stage?
However I have been looking into this further and generally the advice is NOT to flush rockwool that has normal or high EC as it can cause the plants to take up huge volumes of water due to osmotic pressure at the root zone and can cause major physiological problems at the cellular level. Better practice seems to be to make EC changes gradually over days, but am I in a state of emergency here??
Anyone care to chime in here?
I'm also jumping in on pH res shifts / merits of RO over on this thread: https://www.rollitup.org/t/ph-control-in-reservoirs.919177/#post-12914455
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ruwtz
Well-Known Member
They have not been dry once at all, but I have only just solved room humidity issues so that might be the cause for low takeup/evaporation. Night time humidity is now down from mid 80's to 50%.
We will see over the coming days if this improves water movement in this setup. Either way those ppm runoff numbers are fry-high, right?? I'm suffering buildup for sure, for whatever reason, and i'm inclined to flush except that doesn't seem to be the prevailing wisdom with this medium.
ruwtz
Well-Known Member
Picture update on those lesions, which have shifted from very dark black/grey spots to rusty brown. For some reason the color in the pics look better on my phone than they do uploaded here, but I think you get the idea if you're keen to diagnose...
Larry OG:
Blackjack here, these lesions showing on the 2nd leaf set of 5, showing on the best grower out of 12 seeds. New growth currently unaffected but if the Larry is anything to go by it is only a matter of time.
Larry OG:
Blackjack here, these lesions showing on the 2nd leaf set of 5, showing on the best grower out of 12 seeds. New growth currently unaffected but if the Larry is anything to go by it is only a matter of time.
Wisher2
Well-Known Member
when you flush....you dont flush with pure water......you usually flush with 50-75% nutrient solution......that way you are keeping the ppm's in the grow media but the act of flushing from the top pushes built up salts out as well as re-oxygenates the grow media
to me......I dont really know to much about the recharge.....but the Rhizoblast....from experience....caused all kinds of spikes and flux in ppm and ph value of my solution....
I used it for 2 weeks.....that was the only variable that was changed to my nutrients....before and after.....leaves started spotting black....and the leaves began to crinkle and curl up
ph spikes can also be caused by your plants not taking in both water or nutrients
that would also cause ppm spikes
did you start all your seeds in rockwool or something differ
is there a way to pull a plant out of the rockwool hole....just plant and starter plug....see if roots are even growing?
there are all kinds of media you can use
you could use dixie cups with hydroton.....build a simple drip line and have a constant drip recirc system....
hope you figure this out soon
to me......I dont really know to much about the recharge.....but the Rhizoblast....from experience....caused all kinds of spikes and flux in ppm and ph value of my solution....
I used it for 2 weeks.....that was the only variable that was changed to my nutrients....before and after.....leaves started spotting black....and the leaves began to crinkle and curl up
ph spikes can also be caused by your plants not taking in both water or nutrients
that would also cause ppm spikes
did you start all your seeds in rockwool or something differ
is there a way to pull a plant out of the rockwool hole....just plant and starter plug....see if roots are even growing?
there are all kinds of media you can use
you could use dixie cups with hydroton.....build a simple drip line and have a constant drip recirc system....
hope you figure this out soon
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Wisher2
Well-Known Member
phosphorus def.......never saw the purple stems before
almost 100% P def
CallmeTex
Well-Known Member
If your not using a water filter I suggest you get one. It doesn't have to be RO. I just have a 2 stage and it does the trick. Looks like chlorosis to me. Even outdoor in soil, I have to let tap water sit out for 1 full day to let the cloramine or whatever the fuck it is evaporate off. Nasty stuff, and most people drink this water
Tap water has ruined one to many of my grows to even chance it.
Tap water has ruined one to many of my grows to even chance it.
cat of curiosity
Well-Known Member
big reason i don't like rw, it holds water/solution for a long time and doesn't dry easily (with the plastic wrap around it).
i'm in agreement with no organics in hydro. i like sterility better.
i still stick with allowing blocks to dry and get roots down into the table so you can just flood and be done...