Ruwtz Maneuver Vol 1

cat of curiosity

Well-Known Member
Picture update on those lesions, which have shifted from very dark black/grey spots to rusty brown. For some reason the color in the pics look better on my phone than they do uploaded here, but I think you get the idea if you're keen to diagnose...

Larry OG:

View attachment 3769279 View attachment 3769280 View attachment 3769281

Blackjack here, these lesions showing on the 2nd leaf set of 5, showing on the best grower out of 12 seeds. New growth currently unaffected but if the Larry is anything to go by it is only a matter of time.

View attachment 3769282
seems like your initial black spots were from over-watering. saturated rw cubes don't allow for good o2 and roots can rot and stagnate. growing and healing, damage gets brown, but leaves gained color, think you're getting on track.

as for using gh3 ONLY, i have always had to add cal/mag to gh. it's got some in the micro, but not enough. 5ml per gal cal/mag fixed all cal/mag def issues, so i do it as a rule now.
 

Wisher2

Well-Known Member
seems like your initial black spots were from over-watering. saturated rw cubes don't allow for good o2 and roots can rot and stagnate. growing and healing, damage gets brown, but leaves gained color, think you're getting on track.

as for using gh3 ONLY, i have always had to add cal/mag to gh. it's got some in the micro, but not enough. 5ml per gal cal/mag fixed all cal/mag def issues, so i do it as a rule now.
I only suggested he stop Calmg because he is using tap at 200+ppm of mostly cal mg
 

cat of curiosity

Well-Known Member
Just out of interest, are you RO? I'm feeling the pressure especially with these recent problems, but I'm yet to be fully convinced.
i have used ro, but 90% of my waterworld experience is with well/tap water under 200ppm. ro isn't a necessity for me in our location.
 

Wisher2

Well-Known Member
Just out of interest, are you RO? I'm feeling the pressure especially with these recent problems, but I'm yet to be fully convinced.
you dont have to let the waste water go to "waste"....you can set up 2 55gal drums for your waste and 1 for your ro.....the waste goes to the holding tanks and gets used for your outside plants and shrubs and whatnot
 
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ruwtz

Well-Known Member
you dont have to let the waste water go to "waste"....you can set up 2 55gal drums for your waste and 1 for your ro.....the waste goes to the holding tanks and gets used for your outside plants and shrubs and whatnot
Yeah I don't have the room for that setup. Plus I'd be reluctant to drop that concentrated waste water on my outdoor veggie crops. Trees/bushes might be ok.
 

ruwtz

Well-Known Member
I did as @Wisher2 suggested and cut one of these blocks open for investigation. Take a look!

**I picked on the smallest/sickest of the Larry OG's**

LAR84A1 root pics Day 26 1bw.jpg

We're obviously looking at insufficient root development for 3 1/2 weeks thus stunting the rest of the plant. Some roots have grown into the block by an inch or so, and we can clearly see limited, sporadic growth of the fluffy, hairy white roots that we want.

LAR84A1 root pics Day 26 11bw.jpg

However there is also significant root damage evident in the short growth, yellowing, and lack of fibrous root development.

LAR84A1 root pics Day 26 5bw.jpg LAR84A1 root pics Day 26 13bw.jpg

Possible scenarios:

[1] damping off or other pathogenic attack
[2] roots are choking and dying from overwatering
[3] other disease / root rot

A pathogenic attack might explain the leaf spotting - my research found several species of causal agents can cause this - and the pathogen would have easily circulated with my res setup and hence eventually affected other plants. Res is oxygenated but if I have an uninvited pathogen they could be stealing all the O. At first res change (day 12) the pump and hose was slimy which at the time I figured was a normal biological reaction of the nutes, but could also be proof of bacteria. Also res pH swings upwards, although I appreciate tap water may be doing this.

Overwatering is also highly likely and you might be able to tell here in this cross section of the Pargro block. I have left the blocks unwatered for 4-5 days and they NEVER dry out, not even close. I haven't watered in two days currently and they still retain ample water, and humidity is steady around the clock now at 50-55% (lower than planned but i'm trying to force drying here), temps 78F by day, couple degrees under by night.

At watering the res is down 5-7 gallons approx, so these 30-ish blocks with plants are holding on to a lot between them. This is a guess but I probably empty 1-3 gallons from the dehu tank every day.

I have no way of knowing if roots are in recovery or have been declining. Counting on the former, obviously.

I have left this block, chopped open and unwrapped, on the table to experiment just how long it takes one of these to dry out fully.

LAR84A1 root pics Day 26 14bw.jpg

Base of the Pargro block, looking dirty but is presumably from the dark nute solution concentrating after draining.

LAR84A1 root pics Day 26 15bw.jpg

As stated this was the weakest plant so i'm hoping the others that continue to grow are in better condition at the root zone, although it would be foolish to think they are not somehow feeling the pinch of the same problems. I have topped some to see how they respond and new growth is evidently good and quick.

Actions:

[1] Resist watering at all until they are sufficiently drying out
[2] Bennies will be cut from the next res and going KISS with the basic GH trio and CaMg until I can determine what is doing what in this setup

In the meantime should I flush with 1/2 strength nutes and Hydroguard? This sets back my 'drying' program but if its worth it to flush any salt buildup and/or excess of undesirable pathogen then I will do it.

Your thoughts?

And please don't say avoid using rockwool blocks in E&F, cos thats exactly how I feel at this point! I went with these after recommendations and ease of use/cleanliness, but i'm not really enjoying the learning curve in terms of correct watering. The plan was to transplant up to 7gal coco pots for flower, but I might well put some time into considering coco throughout the whole run.
 
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Wisher2

Well-Known Member
I did as @Wisher2 suggested and cut one of these blocks open for investigation. Take a look!

**I picked on the smallest/sickest of the Larry OG's**

View attachment 3770723

We're obviously looking at insufficient root development for 3 1/2 weeks thus stunting the rest of the plant. Some roots have grown into the block by an inch or so, and we can clearly see limited, sporadic growth of the fluffy, hairy white roots that we want.

View attachment 3770722

However there is also significant root damage evident in the short growth, yellowing, and lack of fibrous root development.

View attachment 3770724 View attachment 3770725

Possible scenarios:

[1] damping off or other pathogenic attack
[2] roots are choking and dying from overwatering
[3] other disease / root rot

A pathogenic attack might explain the leaf spotting - my research found several species of causal agents can cause this - and the pathogen would have easily circulated with my res setup and hence eventually affected other plants. Res is oxygenated but if I have an uninvited pathogen they could be stealing all the O. At first res change (day 12) the pump and hose was slimy which at the time I figured was a normal biological reaction of the nutes, but could also be proof of bacteria. Also res pH swings upwards, although I appreciate tap water may be doing this.

Overwatering is also highly likely and you might be able to tell here in this cross section of the Pargro block. I have left the blocks unwatered for 4-5 days and they NEVER dry out, not even close. I haven't watered in two days currently and they still retain ample water, and humidity is steady around the clock now at 50-55% (lower than planned but i'm trying to force drying here), temps 78F by day, couple degrees under by night.

At watering the res is down 5-7 gallons approx, so these 30-ish blocks with plants are holding on to a lot between them. This is a guess but I probably empty 1-3 gallons from the dehu tank every day.

I have no way of knowing if roots are in recovery or have been declining. Counting on the former, obviously.

I have left this block, chopped open and unwrapped, on the table to experiment just how long it takes one of these to dry out fully.

View attachment 3770736

Base of the Pargro block, looking dirty but is presumably from the dark nute solution concentrating after draining.

View attachment 3770743

As stated this was the weakest plant so i'm hoping the others that continue to grow are in better condition at the root zone, although it would be foolish to think they are not somehow feeling the pinch of the same problems. I have topped some to see how they respond and new growth is evidently good and quick.

Actions:

[1] Resist watering at all until they are sufficiently drying out
[2] Bennies will be cut from the next res and going KISS with the basic GH trio and CaMg until I can determine what is doing what in this setup

In the meantime should I flush with 1/2 strength nutes and Hydroguard? This sets back my 'drying' program but if its worth it to flush any salt buildup and/or excess of undesirable pathogen then I will do it.

Your thoughts?

And please don't say avoid using rockwool blocks in E&F, cos thats exactly how I feel at this point! I went with these after recommendations and ease of use/cleanliness, but i'm not really enjoying the learning curve in terms of correct watering. The plan was to transplant up to 7gal coco pots for flower, but I might well put some time into considering coco throughout the whole run.
there is a guy on youtube named Vader...he has a great chanel and runs coco flood and drain from seed.....pretty informative
 

Wisher2

Well-Known Member
Healthy plant from impure water with high ppms, huh?? Proof if proof be need be that RO is not essential after all then, I guess? 8-)
my plant is healthy because my organic soil web is so well built......you could probably water with sewage sludge and grow good plants

was showing that the concentrated ro waste wont hurt your veggies....if you have a good organic soil web

with hydroponics....presumably you want to start as pure as possible so that you can regulate what goes into your plants

that is the point of hydroponics and mineral nutes....you can regulate and be very specific
when you use contaminated water such as tap.......and you worry about your ppms and such you end up using a small amount of essential elements (your nutes) which may not be adequate for your plants....but you dont want to go to high on the ec/ppm
so a part of your feed is crap you can not regulate

in organic soil with billions of microorganisms.... they take care of everything....I also dont feed my outdoor plants....I stick them in the ground and go....no fertelizer no top dressing no nothing....just hose water
because my outdoor is extremely fertile

worm castings and cover crops during the winter takes care of all my needs
 

Wisher2

Well-Known Member
oh and yeah I would flush with 1/2 strength and then squeeze each block of excess moisture and let them sit for a bit until they dry.......
 
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ruwtz

Well-Known Member
oh and yeah I would flush with 1/2 strength and then squeeze each block of excess moisture and let them sit for a bit until they dry.......
I'd like to but it is not recommended to squeeze rock wool as it damages the structure which holds water/air ratio. I've done this with small plug rockwool and it is not good.
 

Wisher2

Well-Known Member
I'd like to but it is not recommended to squeeze rock wool as it damages the structure which holds water/air ratio. I've done this with small plug rockwool and it is not good.
then I guess turn up the heat and drop the humidity to dry out the blocks
78-80 degrees with 40% rh....should dry them in a few days
 
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