Why are COBs better, and whats so great about the 3590?

hillbill

Well-Known Member
The last blurple I had actually did a pretty good job but kept frying blue diodes. Ocean Revive fixed it until it fried blue diodes. They even replaced one blue with a green. Not as efficient as a51 white and red/white panels of that era at making herb.
 

PhotonFUD

Well-Known Member
its a lot of data to digest.

the ones on top are more efficient for example go back to the first 2 graphs for bare chips and lets look at the uber efficient side of the curve

the most cost effective in $/light produced is the $12 1212:
it has a respectable ~13.5W of output at 65% and about 25W @ 60%

View attachment 3777243

where the least cost effective is the $40 cxb which has about 15W @ 65% and 34W@ 60%

View attachment 3777247


so lets peg 60% as our target, we want 1000 watts.
1000W of 1212s at 60% = 40 chips@ 25W x $12 =$480 = $0.48/W
1000W of CXB @ 60% = 30 chips @ 34W x $40 = $1200 = $1.20/W

you gotta take low level readings with a grain of salt as there is maybe 5 umol of ambient lighting not adjusted for, as well as low current measurements are less accurate. Data above 10W/100 umol should be fairly accurate tho

Those charts are wonderful, thank you so much for doing the work on them. As a vendor you should be commended for putting this info out there.

Of the two chips, with efficiency topping out at ~3.1w, the 1212s come in at a higher efficiency (77%) at a far cheaper price point than the 3590s.

Running a $12 chip at only 3w crazy? Not really if your goal is for maximum efficiency. Sure it will cost more to get there but we are all familiar with the cost, power, efficiency 'pick two of' routine. Plus there was some point in time that emitters producing 3w cost $12 each so it was done before.

Now why would you run it this low? Curiosity, research, competition, whatever, who needs a reason this is a hobby. Keep in mind that technology is always improving and the efficiency is getting better. At the current rate we will see ~80% efficiency done by chips run at nominal in how many years? 5-10? If you can get that performance now then why not.

Then there is thermal management. You may not need anything. A 1212 bare running 3.1w 77% efficient should only generate 0.713w of heat which it could passively do. That is another part of the efficiency variable for the system as a whole - reduction in environmental costs.

Sure it is a lot more work to do but those who have put panels together using small diodes should have no sympathy. CoBs are bigger and far easier to work with; most would rather work with 160 CoBs than 160 5w.

Now for the reds. Trying to hit 77% efficiency is going to be much more difficult.
 

CobKits

Well-Known Member
Running a $12 chip at only 3w crazy? Not really if your goal is for maximum efficiency. Sure it will cost more to get there but we are all familiar with the cost, power, efficiency 'pick two of' routine. Plus there was some point in time that emitters producing 3w cost $12 each so it was done before.
for 77% efficiency? last year guys were running $50 crees at 16W (500 mA to get 66% efficiency, so its not unprecedented on the $/W scale, but still on the upper edge of obsession.

Then there is thermal management. You may not need anything. A 1212 bare running 3.1w 77% efficient should only generate 0.713w of heat which it could passively do. That is another part of the efficiency variable for the system as a whole - reduction in environmental costs.
further to this latest study i expanded my spreadsheet. we have cost per chip and efficiency of chip at various currents. we then also have heat load and monthly energy cost.

heres the result of my conclusions that will lead me to the "uber passive build" i hope to feature here
-chips cost money. thermal management infrastructure costs money - which would you rather invest in considering the inverse relationship of these two items?
-at some point, your thermal load is so reduced that your mounting infrastructure (Aluminum plate of sufficient mass and dimension) can handle the heat load by itself in lieu of more expensive heatsinks
-easy to calculate your ROI based on capital cost, efficency and electrical cost

im looking at:
"base" configuration @ 50% efficient
ongoing costs = monthly electricity bill plus i factor 10% electricity overhead for every watt of heat the chips throw out their backsides

per my spreadsheet for a 5x9 tent (chip costs only-drivers the same really as overall wattage is similar):
for me to get to 55% efficient it costs me an add'l $190 which pays itself off in under 12 mos
for me to get to 60% efficient it costs me an add'l $525 which pays itself off in under 19 mos
for me to get to 65% efficient it costs me an add'l $1300 which pays itself off in approx 32 mos
for me to get to 70% efficient it costs me an add'l $2500 which pays itself off in approx. 48 mos

perhaps as important as the economic analysis above, is the fact that if my calcs are correct, if can get to 65% efficient i can mount and cool the entire rig passively on bare 1/4" plate and im putting money into chips not heatsinks. thats saving me a few hundred dollars at least, which is knocking that 32 mo payback down to 24 mos which im down with.

Remember- chip prices are still falling dramatically. you think these chips will be worth what they are now in 2 years? not a chance. maybe 25% of what they cost now. So there is a different angle to running a few chips hard and investing in your "long-term" rig later- but that is a moving target, hard to catch that curve at the exact right time. Are you "losing" money with an "inefficient" (lower 60s vs upper 60s) rig vs sitting on the sidelines waiting for your unicorn?
 

PhotonFUD

Well-Known Member
for 77% efficiency? last year guys were running $50 crees at 16W (500 mA to get 66% efficiency, so its not unprecedented on the $/W scale, but still on the upper edge of obsession.



further to this latest study i expanded my spreadsheet. we have cost per chip and efficiency of chip at various currents. we then also have heat load and monthly energy cost.

heres the result of my conclusions that will lead me to the "uber passive build" i hope to feature here
-chips cost money. thermal management infrastructure costs money - which would you rather invest in considering the inverse relationship of these two items?
-at some point, your thermal load is so reduced that your mounting infrastructure (Aluminum plate of sufficient mass and dimension) can handle the heat load by itself in lieu of more expensive heatsinks
-easy to calculate your ROI based on capital cost, efficency and electrical cost

im looking at:
"base" configuration @ 50% efficient
ongoing costs = monthly electricity bill plus i factor 10% electricity overhead for every watt of heat the chips throw out their backsides

per my spreadsheet for a 5x9 tent (chip costs only-drivers the same really as overall wattage is similar):
for me to get to 55% efficient it costs me an add'l $190 which pays itself off in under 12 mos
for me to get to 60% efficient it costs me an add'l $525 which pays itself off in under 19 mos
for me to get to 65% efficient it costs me an add'l $1300 which pays itself off in approx 32 mos
for me to get to 70% efficient it costs me an add'l $2500 which pays itself off in approx. 48 mos

perhaps as important as the economic analysis above, is the fact that if my calcs are correct, if can get to 65% efficient i can mount and cool the entire rig passively on bare 1/4" plate and im putting money into chips not heatsinks. thats saving me a few hundred dollars at least, which is knocking that 32 mo payback down to 24 mos which im down with.

Remember- chip prices are still falling dramatically. you think these chips will be worth what they are now in 2 years? not a chance. maybe 25% of what they cost now. So there is a different angle to running a few chips hard and investing in your "long-term" rig later- but that is a moving target, hard to catch that curve at the exact right time. Are you "losing" money with an "inefficient" (lower 60s vs upper 60s) rig vs sitting on the sidelines waiting for your unicorn?

Awesome. The more information you provide, the more options people are exposed to. Sure it may seem more complicated to some, but everyone has their own requirements.

Also, one variable not in the mix yet is the unknown increase in power rates over time. Unless you are generating your own electricity, operational costs will be going up.

You brought area into the discussion which is something I wanted to hold off on. Those costs are going to scare a lot of people and generate a lot of noise, however if they are able to see all of the benefits, it might make more sense to them to make the extra effort to get the up front capital costs. Or give them an incentive to reinvest over time with those goals in mind. I don't see it as an either or, you can grow your system as resources become available.

I am waiting for the price drop and getting the research done beforehand. The CoBs will provide much of the light source and will be supplemented with the red region to get my target 10/90% broad/red weighted spectrum. Using a 400w power limit, it looks so far to be ~80 1212s when run at 3w leaving 160w for emphasis of the red region. Going with lower CCT might allow for more 1212s but I would have to look at the data to see impacts to performance.

400w light generating only 92w of heat over a fairly disperse area can be fairly important for those in high temperature climates. Running at 3w each the heat is so low that you might even be able to mount the chips back to back with each other. Gives some very interesting options and benefits for vertical growing.

Another way to look at it, those 400w at 77% efficiency produce ~308w worth of light. It takes ~620w of CoBs running at 50% efficiency to produce the same light. One could see that as an upfront cost of x saving 220w which scales out linearly except if you take cooling costs into account.

I think you would get some discount buying 80 cobs so it might be around ~10 each. $800 for emitters that don't need heatsinks and can be placed almost anywhere with some ingenuity isn't such a bad idea.
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
PAR has no "over 700Nm portion". The actual PAR readings that the three I mentioned took showed far less efficiency for the CRI 90 COBs than the calculated data originally suggested.

Including the PAR data that Citizen themselves produced in their horti PDF. Which show 3000K CRI 90 producing 9% less PAR than CRI 80 for the 1825 and 3618
 

The Dawg

Well-Known Member
Fuck Cree!!!!! Cree Can Suck My Nut Sack All The While Rimming My Brown Eye. ANYONE Running Cree Lack's Imination And Are A Bunch Of Sheepel's!!!!!!!
Vero's For Life Baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :peace:
 

pop22

Well-Known Member
Guess your overlooking the fact that the light still works........ down a cob? so what? no more of a loss than being cheap and running a year old bulb, and we all know 2/3 of growers are cheap and don't replace them unless they are dim/dead!

And what if your ballast goes up in smoke? Ohh yeah, right, your fucked!

Drive your model T if you like, modern tech will continue to improve while your antiques just keep getting farther behind the curve. No? Then why is Gavita going LED?

are you serious lol so tell me if the led u just brought say one or two of the lights go out mid grow ?? are u gunna go buy a hole new led light or just unscrew the bulb of a hps walk down to the nearest hydro store buy a bulb and screw it in how hard is that ? unless u don't have hand well then u are fucked
 

pop22

Well-Known Member
Growing to your best ability requires time spent researching grow related information. Do you factor that into the cost of your lights, whether HPS or LED? I doubt it.

And DIY is not about the money. Its about learning and the satisfaction of knowing YOU built the light and you know exactly how it was built. And my time doesn't cost me money I don't have!



Your point only stands if you put zero cost on your own time and labor. And dont say it only take x hours to assemble a light. if someone is choosing between a commercial fixture and a diy cob build, the cob route requires hours and hours of research. Those hours must be added to the cost of the cob.

Most people from a purely economic efficiency should be paying an expert 200 dollar for 2 or 3 hours work rather than spend 100 hours of their own fumbling about. For some the idea of build a light is as attractive as building an electric kettle.

If you're a nerd who likes building things then go ahead, if its not the light it'll be some other nerdy project anyway.





And what he quouted was close to gibberish,
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
Growing to your best ability requires time spent researching grow related information. Do you factor that into the cost of your lights, whether HPS or LED? I doubt it.

And DIY is not about the money. Its about learning and the satisfaction of knowing YOU built the light and you know exactly how it was built. And my time doesn't cost me money I don't have!
And about that PPFD don't forget the PPFD! It's nice to know for the peeps that don't.
 

CobKits

Well-Known Member
Guess your overlooking the fact that the light still works........ down a cob? so what? no more of a loss than being cheap and running a year old bulb, and we all know 2/3 of growers are cheap and don't replace them unless they are dim/dead!
by this logic if 5-10% of your cobs were completely failing on a yearly basis youd still come out ahead of HPS over time in lumen maintenance. with a constant voltage driver setup where other cobs pick up the slack and maintain wattage you could probably have upwards of 25% cob failure per year and still beat hps in lumen maintenance
 
Top