400W 800PPFD in a 4x4 can it be done?

[BM9AGS]

didn't get 2.5g/w, it was a joke about Growmau5 boosting his #s......... was around 2g/w on my second run, DRY WEIGHT,lol

https://www.rollitup.org/t/testing-osrams-150w-horticultural-led-fixture-v1-monochromatic-dream-or-nightmare.867782/



no, went back to the distributor and now it's going into a sphere for ppf/w testing

number boosting, on the world wide web? No dude impossible! I spray my drying trim with water just before weighing......but only because it looks better for pictures, ya know shiny and shit.

be cool to see test results for the osram

 

[BM9AGS]

you should do a lil reading around in this here led section and you can in fact see a grow,,from me,,,with leds,,,other than mars lol.heres a lil teaser till you find the thread,please dont use myself and rm3 in any type of parallel comparisons because if you knew me better you would know i think he's a putz,putting it politely lmao.

View attachment 3784351

thats a huge ass rat next to your little plant

 

[MeGaKiLlErMaN]

didn't get 2.5g/w, it was a joke about Growmau5 boosting his #s......... was around 2g/w on my second run, DRY WEIGHT,lol

https://www.rollitup.org/t/testing-osrams-150w-horticultural-led-fixture-v1-monochromatic-dream-or-nightmare.867782/



no, went back to the distributor and now it's going into a sphere for ppf/w testing

Another question, what was your PPFD for a 4x4 for the Osram grow? I saw your center but that's not as important to me as the total area covered.

I have a theory that PPFD/W is where the magic is.

 

[PhotonFUD]

Another question, what was your PPFD for a 4x4 for the Osram grow? I saw your center but that's not as important to me as the total area covered.

I have a theory that PPFD/W is where the magic is.

That magic being how close the numbers are between the spreadsheet theoreticals and real world measurements.

At least everyone is talking about PAR rather than lumens. Lumens are fine to help figure out efficiency since there is a correlation between increased lm/w and PAR/w.

We have a long way to go to figure out the optimals for all light characteristics. Lots of study required and that is going to take some time.

It might be better to use shorter cycle high energy plants to get faster results. Those plants could even be used as guidance tools during production as they often react faster to changes and provide other benefits such as pest control. Basil, rosemary, even ferns that only need ~50 umoles can (and should) be used to put wasted light to good use.

Plus it is bonus food that is better than any grocery store. Well that is if you grow well. These other plants can also help growers learn good habits to improve their growing.

 

[MeGaKiLlErMaN]

That magic being how close the numbers are between the spreadsheet theoreticals and real world measurements.

At least everyone is talking about PAR rather than lumens. Lumens are fine to help figure out efficiency since there is a correlation between increased lm/w and PAR/w.

We have a long way to go to figure out the optimals for all light characteristics. Lots of study required and that is going to take some time.

It might be better to use shorter cycle high energy plants to get faster results. Those plants could even be used as guidance tools during production as they often react faster to changes and provide other benefits such as pest control. Basil, rosemary, even ferns that only need ~50 umoles can (and should) be used to put wasted light to good use.

Plus it is bonus food that is better than any grocery store. Well that is if you grow well. These other plants can also help growers learn good habits to improve their growing.

The point I'm making is if you can put down more light for less wattage then you win all day, I contacted the maker of the Cob calculator to see if I can't make a new section to auto fill the best option that's currently out by either price/performance or PPFD/W. I look forward to hearing back. I can attest to the results that I got from the calculator being about 50-100ppfd off which is fine with me since I'll be over if I let it get closer than 1ft.

 

[PhotonFUD]

We are saying the same thing mega!

 

[wietefras]

Seriously, there has been plenty research done. Just read some of that instead of high school textbooks on elementary photosynthesis based on Chlorophyll only. There are no "optimals for all light characteristics". Same with temperature, humidity or nutrient ppm Every type of plant is different and how they were grown also influences what the plants can deal with.

There are devices that you can use to measure the light intensity which is most effective. Clip it on a leaf and it runs a series of tests. That's what advanced greenhouse growers use to optimize the lighting.

 

[PhotonFUD]

There is always an optimal - sure it can be influenced by different factors. It might be the same for different species or adaptations have resulted in significant changes.

Lots of study testing each variable in isolation. But as we have seen with the Emerson Effect, many variables can influence one another and that is where the fun is at!

So yes, optimal <light spectrum> at <optimal uniformity> with <environmental list of factors> should produce between x and y.

Isn't that the magic question?

 

[MeGaKiLlErMaN]

There is always an optimal - sure it can be influenced by different factors. It might be the same for different species or adaptations have resulted in significant changes.

Lots of study testing each variable in isolation. But as we have seen with the Emerson Effect, many variables can influence one another and that is where the fun is at!

So yes, optimal <light spectrum> at <optimal uniformity> with <environmental list of factors> should produce between x and y.

Isn't that the magic question?

Yes but I was trying to simplify. Since I "can"make my canopy 1500ppfd if I move it closer than 12"... But it would be nice just to calculate the best option for your money, and pick your own spectrum.

 

[PhotonFUD]

Yes but I was trying to simplify. Since I "can"make my canopy 1500ppfd if I move it closer than 12"... But it would be nice just to calculate the best option for your money, and pick your own spectrum.

So you can go from 0 all the way up to 1500 umoles based on distance from a fixed light source. So run plants at different heights in the same grow to get different ranges of PAR, eg. ~400, ~600, ~800, ~1000, ~1200 and see what you get. All other factors being equal, I would say that the ~600 will produce the same as the ~1200 but using half the power, and that the ~400 will provide the best roi. Uniformity!

 

[PSUAGRO.]

Another question, what was your PPFD for a 4x4 for the Osram grow? I saw your center but that's not as important to me as the total area covered.

I have a theory that PPFD/W is where the magic is.

Their is an osram file that shows the zelion's par map in the end of that thread somewhere.... ...... it's internal though, no sharing....... lol

I'm on my phone, you have to find it yourself

 

[wietefras]

There is always an optimal

The point is that this is different for every plant and there is no "research" that is going to provide you with an optimal light value like the 400umol you plucked out of a random photosynthesis vs light intensity chart from a high school textbook. That's not for Cannabis, bceause they can use as much as 2000umol/s/m2. They don't even state what plant it's for. It's just made up data to create an example

It's like saying you want to get the optimal nutrients ppm. There is no such thing. Each plant wants something else and during it's life cycle this changes and it also depends on other factors.

For light intensity you can use the photosynthesis sensors I mentioned. You can then measure what is "optimal" for that particular plant at that particular stage in it's development. Or of course go with some global average value. Like the chart we already have for Cannabis. Which shows you get much more yield from 1200umol than from 600.

@MeGaKiLlErMaN, You shouldn't move the lights higher to get lower intensities, but rather dim the driver to get less light. The height of the fixture should be determined by the best compromise between uniformity and wall losses. ie not too low to cause hot spots and dark areas and also not too high to lose too much light on the walls.

 

[MeGaKiLlErMaN]

The point is that this is different for every plant and there is no "research" that is going to provide you with an optimal light value like the 400umol you plucked out of a random photosynthesis vs light intensity chart from a high school textbook. That's not for Cannabis, bceause they can use as much as 2000umol/s/m2. They don't even state what plant it's for. It's just made up data to create an example

It's like saying you want to get the optimal nutrients ppm. There is no such thing. Each plant wants something else and during it's life cycle this changes and it also depends on other factors.

For light intensity you can use the photosynthesis sensors I mentioned. You can then measure what is "optimal" for that particular plant at that particular stage in it's development. Or of course go with some global average value. Like the chart we already have for Cannabis. Which shows you get much more yield from 1200umol than from 600.

@MeGaKiLlErMaN, You shouldn't move the lights higher to get lower intensities, but rather dim the driver to get less light. The height of the fixture should be determined by the best compromise between uniformity and wall losses. ie not too low to cause hot spots and dark areas and also not too high to lose too much light on the walls.

Did I say higher? I meant closer for higher intensity my bad. Because the calculator assumes 12" but I can get closer and take off the reflectors increasing my over all PPFD further.

 

[MeGaKiLlErMaN]

Their is an osram file that shows the zelion's par map in the end of that thread somewhere.... ...... it's internal though, no sharing....... lol

I'm on my phone, you have to find it yourself

Im not seeing anything for PPFD at all, only PPF at center, Any chance you have a PAR meter?

 

[PSUAGRO.]

It's ON page 6 of the zelion thread


Tried doing this with my shitty phone, apologies if it didn't turn out.....

Remember no sharing.....shhhhhhhhh

 

[MeGaKiLlErMaN]

It's ON page 6 of the zelion thread
View attachment 3784757

Tried doing this with my shitty phone, apologies if it didn't turn out.....

Remember no sharing.....shhhhhhhhh

Not impressed at that price point but I mean you could make a MEAN DIY out of the components with the same spacing and even move it closer... Each LED is about $1.2-1.3 and each light has 126 LEDs total...so the light costs around $163.8 at most for the LEDs.

Since each light covers a 6in x 3in at 1000PPF you could multiply it out to fill a 4x4 to see how comparable it is to cobs.

3 (3in aspect of the 24in highest ppf) * 48" = 144/12= 12 *2 (to get Sq/ft that it can cover at that PPFD) 24 of these lights would be needed to get (roughly) 1000PPFD in a 4x4...

Or cost of part DIY $3931.2 (LEDS only not drivers or mounting surfaces)
Or you could buy them for the great price of $21,576 off Ebay (not including shipping.. but they might throw that in for free at this price lol)

Im pretty sure Ill pass even on the DIY area of this light.. after working the numbers that is.

 

[PhotonFUD]

The point is that this is different for every plant and there is no "research" that is going to provide you with an optimal light value like the 400umol you plucked out of a random photosynthesis vs light intensity chart from a high school textbook. That's not for Cannabis, bceause they can use as much as 2000umol/s/m2. They don't even state what plant it's for. It's just made up data to create an example

It's like saying you want to get the optimal nutrients ppm. There is no such thing. Each plant wants something else and during it's life cycle this changes and it also depends on other factors.

For light intensity you can use the photosynthesis sensors I mentioned. You can then measure what is "optimal" for that particular plant at that particular stage in it's development. Or of course go with some global average value. Like the chart we already have for Cannabis. Which shows you get much more yield from 1200umol than from 600.

@MeGaKiLlErMaN, You shouldn't move the lights higher to get lower intensities, but rather dim the driver to get less light. The height of the fixture should be determined by the best compromise between uniformity and wall losses. ie not too low to cause hot spots and dark areas and also not too high to lose too much light on the walls.

We are actually saying the same thing to a certain point. I 100% agree that species adaptations will have an impact on the photosynthetic process. Then there are the environmental factors such as gas concentrations, temperature, air pressure that can increase that rate but only to a certain extent and even then plants grow strange. Space cabbage anyone?

That is where the ~400 umoles comes from. It is the amount needed to maximize the rate chlorophyll can perform photosynthesis. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that earlier but that is where it is from.

Regarding the reference to the text used, it is a text used for master level courses in plant sciences. Even if it was from a high school textbook, as you put it, that would further validate the correctness of the reference.

Sure there are lots of primitive charts out there based on all kinds of lore but until it is proven in a controlled environment, it is all theory. The research on photosynthesis has been proven in a controlled environment and validated by the scientific community which makes it practice.

The sun can hit a plant from 0 to ~2500 umoles at high noon, averaging ~1700 throughout the day. That is to each leaf that isn't blocked whether it is at the top of the plant or the bottom. Older studies have shown that increases beyond 10k lux to sunlight didn't noticeably increase photosynthesis which would suggest that uniformity produced by sunlight is as important an attribute as radiant power.

Besides, all I am saying is to get a uniform 400-600 umoles to as much leaf surface on the plant as possible. More light than that and some goes through, some converted to heat, a lot of excess used for illuminance. But that is all from science. This is a great hobby to test different things; at the end of the day we all want to be able to grow better and share the knowledge with others.

 

[Sativied]

Okay, thanks Malocan!
Then I have to look elsewhere for a distributor ...

Edit:
Found one for my country but It seems you need a commercial to buy there:

1825C4, 3000k
https://www.endrich.com/citizen_standard_cobs/clu058-1825c4-303m2k1
1825C4, 3500k
https://www.endrich.com/citizen_standard_cobs/clu058-1825c4-353m2k1
https://www.endrich.com/citizen_standard_cobs/clu058-1825c4-353h5k2

Will try to get some samples over a friendly shop operator I know. Someone(maybe you) already bought from there?

Not that one specifically but if that friendly shop owner doesn't want to or can't help, call endrich and ask for resalers or companies they distribute to, possibly in your area, and then ask those.

 

[PSUAGRO.]

Not impressed at that price point but I mean you could make a MEAN DIY out of the components with the same spacing and even move it closer... Each LED is about $1.2-1.3 and each light has 126 LEDs total...so the light costs around $163.8 at most for the LEDs.

Since each light covers a 6in x 3in at 1000PPF you could multiply it out to fill a 4x4 to see how comparable it is to cobs.

3 (3in aspect of the 24in highest ppf) * 48" = 144/12= 12 *2 (to get Sq/ft that it can cover at that PPFD) 24 of these lights would be needed to get (roughly) 1000PPFD in a 4x4...

Or cost of part DIY $3931.2 (LEDS only not drivers or mounting surfaces)
Or you could buy them for the great price of $21,576 off Ebay (not including shipping.. but they might throw that in for free at this price lol)

Im pretty sure Ill pass even on the DIY area of this light.. after working the numbers that is.

R&d, production, BOM was through the roof on their first horti panel..... they figured with osram on it , it would sell regardless...... it didn't, stockpiles of them sitting.................still think highly of themselves though

Zelion v2 is more reasonable [built by Fiona) @$1500 for 650w top group/bin ?osram chips , can cover a 4x4?not sure

I think htg supply sells them atm...... probably growers house too

 

[MeGaKiLlErMaN]

R&d, production, BOM was through the roof on their first horti panel..... they figured with osram on it , it would sell regardless...... it didn't, stockpiles of them sitting.................still think highly of themselves though

Zelion v2 is more reasonable [built by Fiona) @$1500 for 650w top group/bin ?osram chips , can cover a 4x4?not sure

I think htg supply sells them atm...... probably growers house too

They would have the be priced lower than the components themselves to make it worth the cost.

But I did get an answer to my question from that chart!

125W* 24 = 15,500W So to get my PPFD/W.... It would be around 0.065 PPFD/W

Thanks for the help!