Competition from black market means legal marijuana won’t likely be tax cash cow: PBO

VIANARCHRIS

Well-Known Member
OTTAWA – Legal marijuana must be delicately taxed and competitively priced or consumers will retreat to the black market, negating a core rationale for legalization, the parliamentary budget officer said Tuesday.

Should the Liberals follow that advice it means recreational pot sales, initially at least, will generate only modest sales tax revenues – about $618 million a year – and not the cash cow some predicted. What’s more, 60 per cent of that money will go to the provinces.

“We’re talking millions and millions, not billions and billions of dollars of revenue,” Parliamentary Budget Officer Jean-Denis Frechette said after releasing his office’s study on what Canada’s retail marijuana market might look like.

“The potential for revenue is very, very low,” added Mostafa Askari, he assistant PBO. “The illicit market, their profit margins are very high, so they have room to compete with the legal market, which makes it even more difficult for the government to set the price and the tax rate.

“If they want to achieve their objective of reducing the share of the illicit market, they always have to be conscious how the legal prices compare to the illegal prices.”

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Liberal MP and former Toronto police chief Bill Blair, the government’s point man on legalization, said the government has never seen legalization as creating a cash cow.

“Absolutely not,” he said. “Our goals are to protect our kids, protect our communities by eliminating organized crime’s involvement and protect the health of Canadians.

“We recognize that in order to discourage its use among young people, but also to eliminate organized crime, price, quality and access are important considerations, and all of that is being worked on.”

The PBO says if the average legal price is lower than or equal to the current average national illicit price of $9 a gram, illicit market revenues can be squeezed to about $100 million. But if legal cannabis were priced at $15 a gr., illicit market revenues would to approach $4 billion.

“When the average legal price is less than or equal to the average illicit price, 98 per cent of consumption is projected to shift to the legal market in 2018,” it says.

Yet keeping the legal price competitively low would seem to rub against another core rationale for legalization: limiting and controlling people’s access to the drug and discouraging its use.

The report estimates 4.6 million Canadians 15 and older will use cannabis at least once in 2018. Most – 98 per cent – would come from the 41 per cent of users who use it at least once a week or daily. By 2021, the number of pot consumers is projected to rise to 5.2 million.

But imposing an additional excise or “sin” tax would cause a serious price imbalance between the legal and illegal markets, giving a significant advantage to organized crime groups.

A nine-member expert task force, led by Anne McLellan, a former Liberal minister, is to report to the government this month on how recreational marijuana should be produced, sold, consumed and otherwise regulated.

Legislation, due to be tabled in Parliament next spring , would end the 93-year criminal prohibition against simple possession of marijuana for non-medical, personal use.

The PBO report is intended to provide context for some of the legislative issues and its projections are based on legalization in January 2018.

Although Frechette and his officials said it was difficult to forecast behaviour in a market that does not yet exist, they peg total cannabis spending at $4.2 billion to $6.2 billion in 2018. Consumption and resulting tax revenues are expected to rise by 10 per cent to 13 per cent by 2021 as the legal market matures.

With production costs expected to drop over time, the government might find more wiggle room to impose higher taxes.

But there remain many unknowns. These include whether legalization will encourage people who don’t smoke (or eat) marijuana to start or, if occasional tokers, to increase their consumption and, therefore, tax revenues.

As well, if the government allows a “value-added” market to develop for, say, edible marijuana products, that could make it more difficult for the illicit market to compete, say PBO officials.


Brian Thompson/Postmedia NetworkGraeme Montrose, grow operations manager at Emblem, a medical marijuana facility in Paris, Ontario checks plants in a grow room on Monday August 22, 2016.
As the legal marijuana market matures, the PBO says the potential for governments to collect more revenue will grow. Production costs for the legal industry are expected to decline, it says, creating space for government to collect a portion of the cost savings without increasing the legal retail price.

“Further, a potential consumer shift to more value-added cannabis products could create a larger tax base. Finally, as the legal market becomes more entrenched, more Canadians may opt into the legal market, resulting in higher revenues.”

The Liberal government is expected to introduce its legalization legislation next spring. The PBO says its estimate of a January 2018 start for legal sales is based on discussions with industry stakeholders.
 

VIANARCHRIS

Well-Known Member
....current average national illicit price of $9 a gram
Considering street price is about $5 /g in BC...they are going to have to rethink pricing....
A nine-member expert task force, led by Anne McLellan, a former Liberal minister, is to report to the government this month on how recreational marijuana should be produced, sold, consumed and otherwise regulated.
The Liberal government is expected to introduce its legalization legislation next spring. The PBO says its estimate of a January 2018 start for legal sales is based on discussions with industry stakeholders.
 

CannaReview

Well-Known Member
“The potential for revenue is very, very low,” added Mostafa Askari, he assistant PBO. “The illicit market, their profit margins are very high, so they have room to compete with the legal market, which makes it even more difficult for the government to set the price and the tax rate.
Well at $10+ per gram from the LP's I think they are cashing in pretty good.
 

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Considering street price is about $5 /g in BC...they are going to have to rethink pricing....
Yeah ON is probably closer to $7, some areas more but $200/ounce is pretty common so they're going to have to re-think their numbers or have the various levels of government take less of a cut (yeah right). Suddenly their cash cow is not looking so good, you think LP's are going to drop their drawers to sell at $5-$7/gram? You don't think home grows will to cut into the domestic medical and rec market? Maybe if the export market opened up, the domestic market here is nothing compared to the US, and if they did open up the market, big US suppliers would crush any piddly LP operations here. And, who is Blair trying to kid with his protecting the kids bullshit, give it up dude.

The only trick they have up their sleeve for medical is if they get the insurance companies on board. Once insurance companies start paying for meds, that market will dry up quick and home grows would be reduced. And of course many more people will try and become eligible for medical so the scams will take some market share as well. Until then, doesn't look like there's anything to worry about, they'll fight between themselves for a cut of the $, LP's will go broke and consolidate, all while the legislation for legal rec is "tabled", there's a term for that, it means at least another year after it's introduced if not longer.. or maybe not at all...
 

VIANARCHRIS

Well-Known Member
all while the legislation for legal rec is "tabled", there's a term for that, it means at least another year after it's introduced if not longer.. or maybe not at all...
The promise is legislation by spring, and predictions are for recreational sales by January 2018. We'll see how accurate that is. I agree, let them fight it out to try to cut into the black market, we have nothing to worry about. They do fairly well with smokes and booze, both legal for personal production, they'll figure it out eventually.
 

chex1111

Well-Known Member
$5 for high quality indoor I think. High profits for illicit herbs? Not around here- outdoor for $500-700 a pound is going rate for the better stuff. $4 a gram for organic kush, haze, god, cheese or whatever. Broke hippies with hundreds of pounds now that the RC stopped flyovers. Having outdoor is like being the lupin man from monty python. The derivatives are getting cheaper and cheaper as outdoor and anything not of high grade becomes derivatives.
The compassion clubs had an advantage in the growth phase of their niche and pulled prices up, by educating patients so they could see the difference between strains, preparations, landraces etc. Thus, they created more of a market for weed nerds. When there is two of them in a small town they do well, now that the number allowed is getting capped at nine in a small town(local) i'm not so sure they will continue to do well.
The market is getting crowded. More people are growing all the time. The grow shops hand out license applications and tell customers how to get a medical permit, how to grow and have seeds for sale in the shops. I think this model, of people doing their own will expand throughout Canada.
American companies will be coming North of the border to visit us "Snowmexicans", as we are now called by their president. They will bring big capital and big projects to test their business models.
I don't know if i'm the only one, but I see so much advertising and you tube videos i'm getting tired of it. I liked it better in the days of Sensi seeds, Nevilles seedbank and Marc Emerys downtown seedshop. But that's enough lamenting.
 

Grojak

Well-Known Member
I was in a legal pot store (USA) and they had $30 3.5g bags of untrimmed buds, literally all sugar leaf was still on it. But legal weed in US last year grossed over 200 million in TAX money.

You will still have a black market, you will still have small home growers but the tourists, the wealthy and the folks with just no connections will buy the legal weed.
 

cannadan

Well-Known Member
20$ gram and 25%+ tax
why not just go an even $50 per gram....just to ensure the health of this sector..I mean really
because we (LP's) are worth it.
If no cash cow exists!!!! then we must make one, Its our duty to do so and also be the ones who guide
policies in our favor as well.
Its our goal to see the blackish market..stays healthy today and into the future,
and to ensure that the $1000.00 per plant estimate (Blackish Market) is utilizable,
to sway the prices of biker and Menonite weeds,and keep them stable.
 

doingdishes

Well-Known Member
i was in Washington a few years back and we had to go buy...We paid $100 for 1/8!!!!!! it was high CBD and worked for my wife's pain but when i asked about medicinal stuff, they looked at me sideways
 

doingdishes

Well-Known Member
$5 for high quality indoor I think. High profits for illicit herbs? Not around here- outdoor for $500-700 a pound is going rate for the better stuff. $4 a gram for organic kush, haze, god, cheese or whatever. Broke hippies with hundreds of pounds now that the RC stopped flyovers. Having outdoor is like being the lupin man from monty python. The derivatives are getting cheaper and cheaper as outdoor and anything not of high grade becomes derivatives.
The compassion clubs had an advantage in the growth phase of their niche and pulled prices up, by educating patients so they could see the difference between strains, preparations, landraces etc. Thus, they created more of a market for weed nerds. When there is two of them in a small town they do well, now that the number allowed is getting capped at nine in a small town(local) i'm not so sure they will continue to do well.
The market is getting crowded. More people are growing all the time. The grow shops hand out license applications and tell customers how to get a medical permit, how to grow and have seeds for sale in the shops. I think this model, of people doing their own will expand throughout Canada.
American companies will be coming North of the border to visit us "Snowmexicans", as we are now called by their president. They will bring big capital and big projects to test their business models.
I don't know if i'm the only one, but I see so much advertising and you tube videos i'm getting tired of it. I liked it better in the days of Sensi seeds, Nevilles seedbank and Marc Emerys downtown seedshop. But that's enough lamenting.
what does indoor go for?
 

CannaReview

Well-Known Member
$5 per gram = $140 per oz for weed that will be months old or $100 per oz from the grey market micro grows. The users wins and the micro grower still gets $1600 per lb and can provide much greater verity of strains as they are not bound by company rules. Problem here is the retail outlets will want to make money so I can't see them now wanting no less then $1-2 per gram profit, the gov wanting at least $2 per gram tax and the LP left fighting over $1-2 per gram lmfao.
 

chex1111

Well-Known Member
Yep, then the LP's go crying into the liquor store, or shoppers drug mart. They try to shut down the retail outlets by saying they're safer and more regulated and harder to access for criminals. Are they going to split the new legal into the liquor store and the LP into shoppers?
 

majins

Well-Known Member
Jesus thats cheap.
Here its $20 per g. And the black market its $25 per 0.8g somes times ok but mostly complete shit quality but they dont require ID and sell to anyone.
 
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