What deficiency does this look like

[Dr. Who]

And none of you know how much calcium is in the cns17?. It has equal parts cal and nitrogen. I use amino products i listed them. All i wanted to know is what deficiency that appeared to be. I think its calcium toxicity mixed with nitrogen toxicity.

And my bioag buffers my ph. No matter what it will go back to 6.1 and they been doin so for the 4 months of veg they are in. I know what ro water is.

I don't know what one to answer first....You want this, you want that, but you want it your way...

Lets start with this!

Your bioag FulHumix does not "buffer" your RO! That is Fulvic and Humic acids. Those do not "buffer" anything..
Did you bother to read that your pH should be rising naturally? You don't want it to "sit in one spot"! Do you know that Ca is better uptaken over a pH of 6.0 ?

You give us pics of a cpl of mealy leaves. How about a pic of the whole plant? That way we can see just how it looks and what it tells us! There is SO MUCH information missing in just a cpl of leaf pics!



Now then, as for your Ca and N being the same amount.....N = 3% by .14 being an Ammonia Nitrate and 2.85% being Nitrate based Nitrogen.
Ca is 3.6% and is made up of Calcium nitrate. The source of the N. nitrate is mostly the calcium nitrate! That is a short cut way to save money in making a nutrient (They are counting the Nitrate in the Ca. as part of the "nitrate of Nitrogen") .... The problem is that Ca Nitrate is not as good a buffer as Ca CARBONATE!.
Secondly, there is not enough Ca in 3.6% to buffer the RO and feed the plant!

Back to the pics.....You surmise a Ca tox when there is not enough Ca present to even buffer the water properly.
You surmise an N tox, because your adding the N value to the nitrate in the Ca aren't you?

While your pics suggest there could be a slight elevated N. With out whole plant pics.....NO ONE can tell with ANY certainty!

This is what I see - PERIOD. You don't have enough Ca and the plant has a Ca def. The pH rising from how ever low you set it (you don't say) appears to be fine as we don't have enough visual information to confirm this.
The N appears to be acceptable in the expression limited leaf pics given......The lower pH could be the affect of that higher N look as lower pH favors N up take over Ca, P and Mn...
"I" would like to see more Mg available also.

So then...You are mistaken..

Ca tox? NO!
N tox..Most likely not but, not enough visual information available..If there is, it appears to be at an acceptable level - almost wanted level at this point.....3-1-2 ratio's look that way when properly applied!

Simple solution - Add at least 3ml of Calcium carbonate based Ca/Mg per gallon of feed in the res. You could even run 5ml and NOT have a Ca "tox" problem......May I suggest CAli MAGic from GH as it has the lowest available "N" value on the market
Does the plant have deeply (not just the ends) down turned clawing and shiny, very dark green leaves? THAT would be N tox to some level (higher)...If not, simply keep going!

Lastly...
It helps a shit ton, if you list everything you mix in and how much.....Not to mention pics of the effected area/leaves but the whole plant also....

If someone comes in and is being nice by giving you info that they feel you might need a brush-up on, due to your message and to other answers.....Be patient with them.....they're trying to help.

BTW, and with all due respect. Believing that FUL HUMIX will act as a "buffer"....Tells me you know less about RO then you think.

I attempted to answer your questions with respect and yet fully answer them. Be patient!

 

[Dr. Who]

I started out letting it swing but noticed the leaf tips would start to bend down and the leaves would stop pointing upwards when it got to around 6, not a happy girl. I also started to use amino acid products which stopped the blotching, which I had real bad. Any reason why this happens with my setup Doc? Pretty sure it's the makeup of the water but now that plants are happy and green till the end I haven't given it much thought. I also chill the water (well) to 66-67. I do agree that with RO the OP needs to up his CM.

Neither of those first things are a real "problem" Budley. The leaves are reacting to lighting conditions as the plant reacts to them.
Blotchy? I would need pics and complete lists of what you were adding and how much.
I would also need to know the water source.
If it was not RO,,,,personally, if over 150 ppm out of the source. I wouldn't use it.

 

[jarvild]

I buffer all my RO to 50 ppm cal, 30 ppm mag, 10 ppm iron before nutrients are added.
Although Calcium carbonate is a good buffer, It's not the most effective cal source for plant use as the carbonate bonds have to be broken first.

 

[SDK420]

yes dr.who the bio-ag does alot for buffering the ph "organic colloid biopolymers,"

 

[SDK420]

i mix the cns17 about 20ml a gallon, then i add a little extra ammoniacal nitrogen. a little bit of kelp. about a 5-1 ratio of bioag to kelp. i dont add the bioag every day or the kelp. but i do add the cns 17 EVERY day. the cns17 is the coco formula so it has a little extra calcium. i havnt changed my res is quite a while about 4 months. they eat and drink at about the same ratio. theres aminos is the b-1. sometimes i add some potassium, and some sulphur. then once or twice a week i add some calmag. it wasnt untill i added the calmag that i started seeing issues

 

[SDK420]

the bio-ag may or may not be the best buffer but i can tell if i dont add it my ph will swing everywhere, when i add it its very very very stable,
straight from the source,


What is Ful-Humix?
Ful-Humix is a premium humic/fulvic powder made by BioAg. Average contents contained in
Ful-Humix in dry form is 75%+ total humic acid(s,) including both humic and fulvic fractions. However listed
guarantee is by the CDFA method which discludes the fulvic fraction.
Why add Ful-Humix to my fertilizer program?
Ful-Humix concentrated humic/fulvic powder is a powerful soil
conditioner that will help maximize your outdoor gardening potentional. It increases nutrient efficiency and
creates a healthier growing environment, resulting in stronger plants. In geek speak, it buffers the soil with organic
colloid biopolymers, preventing tie-up caused primarily by chemical salts reacting in an inorganic form. Included in
this action is a
SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN SOLUBILITY OF BOUND PHOSPHORUS AND CHELATION OF
MICRONUTRIENTS
. Additionally, Nitrogen leaching is reduced, keeping it in the root zone longer and out of our
water tables. Plants can grow within a larger pH range when humic acid(s)are present because of its ability to
hinder precipitation of elements across the range. Not only are elements made more available, but coupled with
increased respiration and chlorophyll production, utilization and uptake of nutrients is catalyzed resulting in
accelerated growth and health of the plant.
How does Ful-Humix effect soil biology?
Ful-Humix adds carbon. Carbon is not only essential for balancing the
carbon to nitrogen ratio, but is also invaluable for maintaining an optimum microbial community. It has been
demonstrated that humic and fulvic acids in Ful-Humix STIMULATE BENEFICIAL SOIL BACTERIA AND FUNGAL
BIOMASS AND ACTIVITY.

 

[jarvild]

yes dr.who the bio-ag does alot for buffering the ph "organic colloid biopolymers,"

Humics and fulvics are chelators, A good hydroponic formula should have all the micros in chelated form already.

 

[SDK420]

Humics and fulvics are chelators, A good hydroponic formula should have all the micros in chelated form already.

idont use it jsut as a "chelator" it does lots of other beneficial things too

 

[Dr. Who]

yes dr.who the bio-ag does alot for buffering the ph

Where does that idea come from!

While you are adding something that makes the soil/ media/water more acidic (a down in effect).....It does not act as a "buffer" to stabilize the "potential Hydrogen" ion reactions to change. NO ACID DOES! Especially when it's reacting with the other nutrients in the solution and the plant. You must use Ca to slow down the pH changes that happen because the acid levels (or active acid levels) are changing by reaction and plant use in relation to exchangeable acidity (amount of acid cations on the CEC of the media) and the residual acidity (all "bound" aluminum and hydrogen in the media - this is always the least available and especially so for hydro!!!) It's use in soil is tempered by the Ca present in the soil to effect any pH change.

We use Ca, which is generally the major component removed from the water by RO. This supplies the plant needed Ca that is not available in proper amounts in all but a very, very few nutrient lines!

Polite is getting harder to do. You get answers and you seem to want things your way and not listen......

I buffer all my RO to 50 ppm cal, 30 ppm mag, 10 ppm iron before nutrients are added.
Although Calcium carbonate is a good buffer, It's not the most effective cal source for plant use as the carbonate bonds have to be broken first.

Correct, That is part of why it buffers better-right? It's still used by the plant but, is used slower. This helps "buffer" pH fluctuation....
He's is getting a fair amount of Ca by the CNS - 17 in Ca Nitrate.....If he added more Ca by way of Ca Carbonate. he would fill all his needs.

I always liked Ca carbonate based Ca sources and never had defs. from it's use....I applied the needed amount to work...No matter what he's using......the Ca content is too low.....He seemed to want to control the pH to swing slower.....this would help some.

 

[jarvild]

the bio-ag may or may not be the best buffer but i can tell if i dont add it my ph will swing everywhere, when i add it its very very very stable,
straight from the source,


I've ran it and my conclusion is, in a hydroponic medium it made no difference in harvest weight or quality.

 

[SDK420]

i not knocking what your saying completely. you sound like you know what your talking about.

Where does that idea come from!

While you are adding something that makes the soil/ media/water more acidic (a down in effect).....It does not act as a "buffer" to stabilize the "potential Hydrogen" ion reactions to change. NO ACID DOES! Especially when it's reacting with the other nutrients in the solution and the plant. You must use Ca to slow down the pH changes that happen because the acid levels (or active acid levels) are changing by reaction and plant use in relation to exchangeable acidity (amount of acid cations on the CEC of the media) and the residual acidity (all "bound" aluminum and hydrogen in the media - this is always the least available and especially so for hydro!!!) It's use in soil is tempered by the Ca present in the soil to effect any pH change.

We use Ca, which is generally the major component removed from the water by RO. This supplies the plant needed Ca that is not available in proper amounts in all but a very, very few nutrient lines!

Polite is getting harder to do. You get answers and you seem to want things your way and not listen......



Correct, That is part of why it buffers better-right? It's still used by the plant but, is used slower. This helps "buffer" pH fluctuation....
He's is getting a fair amount of Ca by the CNS - 17 in Ca Nitrate.....If he added more Ca by way of Ca Carbonate. he would fill all his needs.

I always liked Ca carbonate based Ca sources and never had defs. from it's use....I applied the needed amount to work...No matter what he's using......the Ca content is too low.....He seemed to want to control the pH to swing slower.....this would help some.

bio-ag raises the ph. its not acidic. it brings my ph from 7 to 8.5

 

[SDK420]

did the picture i added look good? can you tell anything by looking at it??

 

[Dr. Who]

the bio-ag may or may not be the best buffer but i can tell if i dont add it my ph will swing everywhere, when i add it its very very very stable,
straight from the source,


What is Ful-Humix?
Ful-Humix is a premium humic/fulvic powder made by BioAg. Average contents contained in
Ful-Humix in dry form is 75%+ total humic acid(s,) including both humic and fulvic fractions. However listed
guarantee is by the CDFA method which discludes the fulvic fraction.
Why add Ful-Humix to my fertilizer program?
Ful-Humix concentrated humic/fulvic powder is a powerful soil
conditioner that will help maximize your outdoor gardening potentional. It increases nutrient efficiency and
creates a healthier growing environment, resulting in stronger plants. In geek speak, it buffers the soil with organic
colloid biopolymers, preventing tie-up caused primarily by chemical salts reacting in an inorganic form. Included in
this action is a
SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN SOLUBILITY OF BOUND PHOSPHORUS AND CHELATION OF
MICRONUTRIENTS
. Additionally, Nitrogen leaching is reduced, keeping it in the root zone longer and out of our
water tables. Plants can grow within a larger pH range when humic acid(s)are present because of its ability to
hinder precipitation of elements across the range. Not only are elements made more available, but coupled with
increased respiration and chlorophyll production, utilization and uptake of nutrients is catalyzed resulting in
accelerated growth and health of the plant.
How does Ful-Humix effect soil biology?
Ful-Humix adds carbon. Carbon is not only essential for balancing the
carbon to nitrogen ratio, but is also invaluable for maintaining an optimum microbial community. It has been
demonstrated that humic and fulvic acids in Ful-Humix STIMULATE BENEFICIAL SOIL BACTERIA AND FUNGAL
BIOMASS AND ACTIVITY.

Humics and fulvics are chelators, A good hydroponic formula should have all the micros in chelated form already.

Mister jarvild is RIGHT here! The thing you listed is for soil! It does NOT have any major effect on potential Hydrogen other then the relation to the "active - exchangeable and residual" acids that relate to the soil CEC. Ca is STILL needed to "buffer" the soil with FUL HUMIX use!

How do I know? I run a 4 organic farm co-op and use this every spring on certain fields!

 

[SDK420]

yes it does help with hydro, i dont know where you get your info it is for ALL mediums

 

[Dr. Who]

i not knocking what your saying completely. you sound like you know what your talking about.


bio-ag raises the ph. its not acidic. it brings my ph from 7 to 8.5

Are you sure that's the reason? The other things are the UP to the pH.
Fulvics and Humics ARE ACIDS ok? What do acids do to potential hydrogen levels?

I'm getting more patient again.....

 

[SDK420]

i will post this again incase you failed to read it the first time


Why add Ful-Humix to my fertilizer program?
Ful-Humix concentrated humic/fulvic powder is a powerful soil
conditioner that will help maximize your outdoor gardening potentional. It increases nutrient efficiency and
creates a healthier growing environment, resulting in stronger plants. In geek speak, it buffers the soil with organic
colloid biopolymers, preventing tie-up caused primarily by chemical salts reacting in an inorganic form. Included in
this action is a
SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN SOLUBILITY OF BOUND PHOSPHORUS AND CHELATION OF
MICRONUTRIENTS
. Additionally, Nitrogen leaching is reduced, keeping it in the root zone longer and out of our
water tables. Plants can grow within a larger pH range when humic acid(s)are present because of its ability to
hinder precipitation of elements across the range. Not only are elements made more available, but coupled with
increased respiration and chlorophyll production, utilization and uptake of nutrients is catalyzed resulting in
accelerated growth and health of the plant.

dont elt the word SOIL confuse you, its for hydroponics too

 

[SDK420]

just dont remind me that its made by monsanto

<div>Our low heat capacity drying method provides a natural, easy to use humic concentrate with a high bio-stimulation effect. Ful-Humix is an inexpensive plant and soil activator that increases cellular activities at all levels, increases availability of nutrients, converts raw organic matter faster and detoxifies plant cells. In the root system Ful-Humix reduces the uptake of sodium, aluminum and other metals that negatively effect plants. Ful-Humix will also buffer the soil with organic biopolymers, thus preventing tie up of nutrients and trace elements. It's all in the name. Ful-Humix® is a cost effective amendment that adds soluble carbon to your soil. It's sourced and processed for superior gardening results by the grower/scientists at BioAg. Ful-Humix should be regularly used throughout the plant life cycle, watered into greenhouse or outdoor soils. For extra benefit, also water onto your compost pile throughout the year.

 

[Dr. Who]

yes it does help with hydro, i dont know where you get your info it is for ALL mediums

I did NOT say it isn't for other media applications.

I'm almost 59.
I've been growing Cannabis for almost 44 years.
I grew up on a farm
I now own and run the original grandparents farm.
I went to college to learn Agronomy and Horticulture.
I've run greenhouse's
I've run massive yew farms for a drug company.
I have been in the growing industry all my life.

Info questions?

 

[jarvild]

Although I run dtw, not recirculating, my rez stays stable for a week pH wise, but i don't run airstones in my rez.

 

[SDK420]

I did NOT say it isn't for other media applications.

I'm almost 59.
I've been growing Cannabis for almost 44 years.
I grew up on a farm
I now own and run the original grandparents farm.
I went to college to learn Agronomy and Horticulture.
I've run greenhouse's
I've run massive yew farms for a drug company.
I have been in the growing industry all my life.

Info questions?

how can i tell the diff between calcium toxicity, vs calcium def