DIYers try to recreate CREE vs Gravita?

VegasWinner

Well-Known Member
Show me results that state otherwise, I was following this tread before you were here.

It's not you it's the subject. Check out the dude grows show with @Growmau5 talking about why white by itself is enough. It's not a pissing match, it's about facts and since he has the most info in video form.. In regard to weed specifically, that's real world data.
I saw Growmau5 he is not a lighting expert and you are his troll. Childish you knoe this is the third thread you are after me. They call it stalking stop you know little of lighting except what you have been told by others
 

VegasWinner

Well-Known Member
Show me results that state otherwise, I was following this tread before you were here.

It's not you it's the subject. Check out the dude grows show with @Growmau5 talking about why white by itself is enough. It's not a pissing match, it's about facts and since he has the most info in video form.. In regard to weed specifically, that's real world data.
They have this empirical data developed in the horticulture industry along with years of study. Potheads think the industry is watching how you guys grow with high bay storage lighting while the industry is using specialized developed leds for horticulture. This is just the beginning of horticulture lighting
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
They have this empirical data developed in the horticulture industry along with years of study. Potheads think the industry is watching how you guys grow with high bay storage lighting while the industry is using specialized developed leds for horticulture. This is just the beginning of horticulture lighting
Seeing how this thread isn't about options kindly sight sources with evidence.
 

NaturalFarmer

Well-Known Member
So does any light that use 660nm and 450nm considered blurple to you guys? Fairly important IMO. What is so special about white that match these spectrums? The added green and ambers? While maybe not wasted, are they as efficient? In terms of Photosynthesis?
 
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Raging Stalk

Active Member
They have this empirical data developed in the horticulture industry along with years of study. Potheads think the industry is watching how you guys grow with high bay storage lighting while the industry is using specialized developed leds for horticulture. This is just the beginning of horticulture lighting

You are 100% dead on with this.

Home growing is just a small cottage industry. Agriculture, medicinal production and horticulture are the big players driving the efficiency advancements. Once we got down to under 10w/e27 bulb LEDs, that satisfied the governments power reduction targets so no more incentive there.

Ag = food, medicinal = a bunch of plants that have medicinal properties, not just cannabis, and horticulture = pretty flowers.
 

wietefras

Well-Known Member
You are 100% dead on with this.

Home growing is just a small cottage industry. Agriculture, medicinal production and horticulture are the big players driving the efficiency advancements. Once we got down to under 10w/e27 bulb LEDs, that satisfied the governments power reduction targets so no more incentive there.

Ag = food, medicinal = a bunch of plants that have medicinal properties, not just cannabis, and horticulture = pretty flowers.
He has a point which is right now utterly useless unfortunately. If we'd know which was the best spectrum we'd use that. Since no one does, we use what we know works.

HPS lights were used mainly for lighting roads. They are not horticulture lights. Yet they are now used in large numbers by greenhouse growers all over the world. Not because of their superduper spectrum, but because they were by far the most efficient light source. So who cares if COBs they aren't designed for "horticulture"? Neither are fluorescent or HPS.

Just slapping on some PCB (with even green leds on it) is useless unless someone actually tested them and found out they work better that white COBs. So you can claim a better spectrum might exist, but how does that help in saying some random spectrum could be better?

If you want horticulture COBs, you can get the burple or pink COBs from Citizen. Those are much better documented than some random PCB.

A problem with purple light is that you cannot use the high intensities we are used to use on cannabis. Because using only blue+red means you only trigger chlorophyl and not any of all the other pigments in the plants which contribute to photosynthesis. Overload the chlorophyll and you get bleached plants. Plants like lettuce which can grow under 400umol/s/m2 do fine under purple, but cannabis can do with a bit more light and if you see any Mars light grow section, you see how much issues with bleach growers have with even those puny lights..

Greenhouse growers will use purple lights as supplemental lighting to add to the weak sunlight when the days are short or cloudy. The plants then have white light from the sun already, so no use in adding white light again. So yeah they will just use what;s most efficient when they add a little light. Which is purple.
 

REALSTYLES

Well-Known Member
He has a point which is right now utterly useless unfortunately. If we'd know which was the best spectrum we'd use that. Since no one does, we use what we know works.

HPS lights were used mainly for lighting roads. They are not horticulture lights. Yet they are now used in large numbers by greenhouse growers all over the world. Not because of their superduper spectrum, but because they were by far the most efficient light source. So who cares if COBs they aren't designed for "horticulture"? Neither are fluorescent or HPS.

Just slapping on some PCB (with even green leds on it) is useless unless someone actually tested them and found out they work better that white COBs. So you can claim a better spectrum might exist, but how does that help in saying some random spectrum could be better?

If you want horticulture COBs, you can get the burple or pink COBs from Citizen. Those are much better documented than some random PCB.

A problem with purple light is that you cannot use the high intensities we are used to use on cannabis. Because using only blue+red means you only trigger chlorophyl and not any of all the other pigments in the plants which contribute to photosynthesis. Overload the chlorophyll and you get bleached plants. Plants like lettuce which can grow under 400umol/s/m2 do fine under purple, but cannabis can do with a bit more light and if you see any Mars light grow section, you see how much issues with bleach growers have with even those puny lights..

Greenhouse growers will use purple lights as supplemental lighting to add to the weak sunlight when the days are short or cloudy. The plants then have white light from the sun already, so no use in adding white light again. So yeah they will just use what;s most efficient when they add a little light. Which is purple.
Ssshhhhh!!!!
 

NaturalFarmer

Well-Known Member
Here is a great source.
http://agi32.com/blog/2014/12/10/photometry-and-photosynthesis/




Here is the study
Terashima 2009
"red light is more effective than green light in white light at low PPFDs, but as PPFD increases, light energy absorbed by the uppermost chloroplasts tends to be dissipated as heat, while penetrating green light increases photosynthesis by exciting chloroplasts located deep in the mesophyll. Thus, for leaves, it could be adaptive to use chlorophylls as photosynthetic pigments, because, by having chlorophyll with a ‘green window’ the leaves are able to maintain high quantum yields for the whole leaf in both weak and strong light conditions."



670nm was used and not 660nm. WHY? Maybe in 2009 they could not target the spectrum as close as we can now with higher tech emitters.

How much green light do you need? 5%? 10%?
 

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Raging Stalk

Active Member
Oh this circular discussion around photosynthesis is coming back again.

I am now just going to wave a white flag and sit in the higher CRI camp. I think being able to replicate natural light as much as possible is better for plants in general. Who knows what other reactions are affected by different wavelengths in what manner. We need the research!

But until then, high CRI for me. Even for my leafy veggies at the higher CCT. Blurple may produce really thick dark lettuce but I still find my floro grown tastier.
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
So whoever has a spectrometer can you go outside and take a reading, then send that over to Cree, Vero, and Citizen and say make this spectrum? If noone has one Ill be getting one eventually and doing this. Seems easy enough to get the perfect sun spectrum.
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
So whoever has a spectrometer can you go outside and take a reading, then send that over to Cree, Vero, and Citizen and say make this spectrum? If noone has one Ill be getting one eventually and doing this. Seems easy enough to get the perfect sun spectrum.
NVM BRB, JK its Night in Michigan

 

Raging Stalk

Active Member
Mega, Malocan was doing that last year with his.

You will get different readings based on location, time of day, year, weather, so many factors. That's why different plants grow in different places.
 

MeGaKiLlErMaN

Well-Known Member
Mega, Malocan was doing that last year with his.

You will get different readings based on location, time of day, year, weather, so many factors. That's why different plants grow in different places.
The spectrum shouldnt change much unless its like summer or winter, Ill take measurements in both but emulate the summer sun.
 

VegasWinner

Well-Known Member
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-13/issue-7/features/horticulture/science-advances-in-matching-led-lighting-to-horticultural-needs.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+LedsMagazineRss+(LEDS+-+LEDs+Magazine+RSS)
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Still, the growers across the horticulture and floriculture space need both better metrics that are pertinent to the application and access to data on light recipes. As we covered in an article last year, the American Society of Agricultural and Biological Engineers (ASABE) Agricultural Lighting Committee began in 2015 to work on the standardized metrics issue. The work is considering metrics related to the PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation) spectrum among others. The PAR range is generally defined as the 400-700-nm spectral band where photons actively drive photosynthesis. Common metrics related to PAR include Photosynthetic Photon Flux (PPF) measured in micromoles per second (μmoles/sec) and Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (PPFD) measured in μmoles/m2/sec where a mole can be directly converted mathematically to photons.
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Others have made more forceful statements. Neil Yorio, vice president of Biological Innovation and Optimization Systems (BIOS), commented on the topic; his company is working on LED luminaires for cannabis and other sectors. "The use of only red and blue LEDs is pretty outdated, and when you see products with that spectrum, it is based on older science and is frequently misinterpreted," said Yorio. "The reason people have chosen blue and red is because these wavelength peaks align with the absorption profile of chlorophyll a and b isolated in test tubes. That is not what is happening in intact leaves. We know today that all wavelengths of light in the PAR range are useful in driving photosynthesis. No doubt spectrum has importance, but it is associated with plant morphology such as size and shape rather than growth and yield or biomass."

Yorio's point is that research shows we can impact plant height and flowering by changing the spectrum. And as we will discuss a bit later, some growers continuously modulate light intensity and SPD mix to plants as the plants do have something akin to a circadian rhythm, although most every plant species has a unique rhythm and recipe requirement for optimal yield.
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White light can be important for reasons beyond baseline production in leafy greens. Several people we interviewed for this article said lettuce may not mature to look green without some light from the green spectral band. On the other hand, sometimes growers may control the spectrum to create new colors in produce. Gus van der Feltz, global director of city farming at Philips Lighting, for example, said you may want to grow a specialty lettuce with a red coloration. Also, white light is required at times for workers as we mentioned in a prior horticultural lighting feature, and as stated earlier the blue energy peak in white LEDs is a plus.

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The lighting and LED manufacturers, meanwhile, are working diligently to deliver products that enable growers to succeed. Cree, for example, recently announced what it called a Photo Red LED in the far-red spectrum that might be useful in encouraging flowering. Spectrum King is apparently using that LED in its fixtures.

.......

Ultimately, LED lighting is poised to revolutionize all types of horticulture. Consider tomatoes. In one of the earlier linked feature articles, we cover a North Carolina tomato farmer called Patterson Greenhouses that was able to significantly extend the growing season even in a relatively warm region of the globe. We also covered a Philips Lighting tomato project in France where the fruit is apparently tastier under LEDs (Fig. 7). That project used the aforementioned interlighting with LED luminaires from Philips that you can see in the photo running horizontally between plants.
 

VegasWinner

Well-Known Member
it actually changes substantially over the course of the day. ever see a blue sunrise or sunset?
emulating sunrise/sunset is not some much an intensity but a color spectrum issue. Sunrise is a deep red first sun, turning to orange and then yellow as we perceive it. Sunset is a far red with a tint of blue to our perception. natural light has more invisible light we cannot see like IR and such. Most beneficial is a narrow band of reds for both but different reds. So I posted some excerpts from an led magazine from a group on another site I interact with. this same discussion is being had everywhere.

Clarifying my statement on expertise is not meant to belittle anyone, but to lead us all towards understanding from current experts and to grow as a community. COB's are great but are we missing out on more. I have found that additional reds for bloom and adduitional blues for veg have performed above my expectations.

BTW, I got in a few 30w and 50w full spectrum cobs 32v 1500mA I am going to be experimenting with as additional supplemental cob lighting to replace my 3w reds/blues with a 50w red/blue to improve production as the reds/blues have a high incidence of absorption assisting the 3500k/5000k cobs.
 
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