Increasing the THC and CBD levels with Mn and Ir - REALLY?

[Dr. Who]

@MichiganMedGrower

I forgot to ask. Is that a single nutrient to be used all the way? At differing amounts?

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

@MichiganMedGrower

I forgot to ask. Is that a single nutrient to be used all the way? At differing amounts?

Scroll down for directions.

https://www.ch9femaleseeds.com/easypistils#.WSbrcoEpCaM

 

[Dr. Who]

Scroll down for directions.

https://www.ch9femaleseeds.com/easypistils#.WSbrcoEpCaM

I see. Nice that he use's weight over volume! Only way to use a powder in my book.

It all makes sense after reading his amounts and timing......My K use is more then the normal formula's but, not that high. Again interesting to be sure.....

 

[ANC]

Some good stuff coming up here. Just want to add that the quantity of minerals is not always as important as the ratio between specific ones.

 

[whitebb2727]

Goes to say that "single flowers" seeds ares still differing pheno's.

Got 8 distinct pheno's out of an F1 breeding result. That was from the first 12 beans popped - 4 males and 8 females. All the females grew out distinctly different = 8 pheno's.

That's odd. Normally f1 is uniform.

 

[churchhaze]

Observations are the ground floor of discovery..no?

I agree. Without observations, it would be hard if not impossible to come up with good hypotheses and thus apparatus and procedure.

That being said, I'd love to see an actual experiment done with clones and controlled nutrients and light, with only Mn varying. Also, if you use MnSO4 as your source of Mn, you will have to find a way to keep SO4-- constant (many people here think sulfur feeds trichs), which is easier said than done. For example, you could replace some of your MgSO4 with Mg(NO3)2, but then you're boosting your N which we all know is the most important element.

Of course the results would have to be actually tested for THC and before you could come up with any conclusion. I'd be interested in the results.

 

[churchhaze]

Personally, I would say that proper use of amending SI in hydro is needed.

First of all, it's Si, not SI.. S is sulfur and I is iodine. Second, it's clearly not needed as using 0 silicon won't result in any deficiencies. Personally, I can't understand why people even bother with silicon and I definitely can't understand why anyone would say it's needed. Not only is silicon clearly not needed, I think it's just a fad.

 

[Dr. Who]

That's odd. Normally f1 is uniform.

It's from a project.....Insane looking strain......
Each end of the cross is unique in the way they look, and each had more then average pheno #'s in their expression too.

The follow up run of 24 beans. Showed the addition of 1 new distinct, added to that group of 8. That makes 9 solid pheno's for this cross.....I have just over 200 beans left from the chosen seed set. This is the most I've ever gotten......Kinda makes it a bitch to choose the chicken dinner winner of the cross.. Having fun though.

 

[Dr. Who]

First of all, it's Si, not SI.. S is sulfur and I is iodine. Second, it's clearly not needed as using 0 silicon won't result in any deficiencies. Personally, I can't understand why people even bother with silicon and I definitely can't understand why anyone would say it's needed. Not only is silicon clearly not needed, I think it's just a fad.

I know (Si) = dyslexia at work......ever notice how many times I edit some of these? Fixing that problem .

An interesting opinion, and technically correct.

I do believe I got better results when using it in hydro.

I'm pretty sure Cannabis is in the "intermediate" class of Si use (1.5 -.5% of circulated amount available). I found better plant strength (as far as branching supporting the budding vs. needing support). Longer onset times for PM to appear, and better bud set. When it was used.

Again, those are simply my observations in hydro experiments. That's why I used the term "needed", and that's simply my opinion on it's use.

As far as soils are concerned. NO amending is ever going to make a real difference. Soil has plenty available. More then the plant will use. Adding to that is simply a waste of money...."Not that that never happens around here..eh?"

This has turned into a great thread. Been pleased with the quality of knowledge shared and the debate value from the advanced members.

 

[SSGrower]

Guessing you have discussed synergies between Mg and Mn? Going to have to go back further, read first page and last 2. Was thinking who the f is using irridium? Would be @Dr. Who if anyone .
But your slip o the brain actually points out that there are many interlacing variables here infra red was mentioned as a result of the wrong fe abbreviation - sneaky (subconcious?)planning on your part doc if you ask me.

 

[Dr. Who]

Guessing you have discussed synergies between Mg and Mn? Going to have to go back further, read first page and last 2. Was thinking who the f is using irridium? Would be @Dr. Who if anyone .
But your slip o the brain actually points out that there are many interlacing variables here infra red was mentioned as a result of the wrong fe abbreviation - sneaky (subconcious?)planning on your part doc if you ask me.

LOL, as age has been growing, My dyslexia has effected my typing......Mind doing to many things at once?
FRUSTRATING!

Also Mg and K are THC inhibitors to a point......The relationship in Mn and Fe levels are important. You are right that Mg and Ca can limit Mn uptake......Balance is key.

 

[ANC]

At what time do they apply the iron foliar spray? Found a chelate today that can be foliar fed. It is like $5 a pack.

 

[ANC]

Does it state the dosing regiment for iron? At what stage do you start? I have iron chelate for foliar application, Have a few similar phenos from seeds from one flower, would like to do a comparison. I haven't switched to bloom yet but they are pretty big.

 

[ANC]

I was quite surprised when I went outside to go check my ladies after the rains of the last two days, one's leaves went purple. Stems are still nice and green though.
Quite a pretty contrast. Guess I'm going to have to try and clone a flowering plant, as it is quite unusual, the other plants standing next to it stayed green. They were grown from seeds from one flower.

 

[Dr. Who]

@churchhaze @Heil Tweetler

I'm digging this thread back up.

Much has happened since it's first posting.

We know that Mel Frank did a micro mix to increase THC (cannabinoid) compounds.

His mix was higher in Fe then Mn and that lead to higher CBD levels (He didn't know that then). So simply balancing the Mn to the Fe flipped that formula to increase THC over CBD.

"Mel Frank offers this micronutrient formula for high cannabinoid production: Fe-sulfate (5 mg/gal), Cu-sulfate (0.2 mg/gal), Mn-sulfate (2 mg/gal), Zn-sulfate (0.2 mg/gal), Boric acid (2 mg/gal), Molybdenic acid (0.1 mg/gal). Use 1 tspn/gal of nutrient solution, once monthly."

Now this is Mel's formula from that book. Like I said the Fe is high and that's generating more CBD then THC production. It's easy to realize that from what we know about the Fe and Mn being equally balanced that we get more THC production over CBD. So the next step would be to raise the Mn content to be equal, correct?

While talking over the phone to my BIO AG rep. (farming reasons). The conversation slipped over to cannabis growing. We talked about some differing supplementations between what I was doing and what he was doing. I gave him the formula Mel was using and the balancing of the Mn to the Fe. He said, "Wait a minute! We have something that's almost exactly what you're describing, in our line of products! Take a look at our TM-7 micro & humic mix...That has to be about exactly what Mel was doing but, with that balanced Mn to Fe your talking about."

Long story short. I took a look at the product PDF and saw this!

Guaranteed Analysis: Sulfur(S)........................2%
Copper (Cu)............0.31%
Boron (B).................0.37%
Iron (FE)......................1.2%
Cobalt (Co).............0.05%
Manganese (Mn)......1.2%
Molybdenum (M0)..0.1%
Zinc................................0.7%

Non-plant food ingredients: Humic 40% & Fulvic 10.5%

Derived from: Boron, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium molybdenate, zinc sulfate and chelated with humic and fulvic acids derived from fresh water cretaceous humate deposits.

GENERAL APPLICATION RATES:

Seed activation: For vegetable seeds soak 72 hours at 0.5g /gal. For other, soak for 24 hours at same ratio.
Soil and Container plants: 0.75-1.25g/gal of irrigation solution.
Hydroponic: 0.5-0.75g/gal of nutrient solution used in reservoir (use with every change. Top-offs can be chared with 1/4-1/2 normal rate).
Foliar Rates: .75g/gal every 7-10 days.
Field Use: 2-4 pounds per acre every 3-6 weeks. Pre-Plant Soil Conditioning/Bioremediation: 5-10 pounds per acre. 1/4 tsp= 1g 1/2tsp= 2g

*Please note approx 15% is insoluble and can be cast in compost or garden. Exceeding application rates can cause irregular growth. Store dry and away from excessive heat.

HOLY SHIT! A pre-mixed THC increasing formula!

Here we go, and with the proper figuring between us. We decided that the package instructions of 1/4 tsp per gallon was spot on for a 3-4 week re-application rate of this supplement was going to be the ball park way to go!

I'm giving it a try at the safety end of the 4 week re-amending!

I just thought that I would share this with any of you already doing this style of THC increase manipulation. You might want to give this a shot over making your own!
A paltry $ 16 bucks a 300 gr bag!

I did find my sweet spot in balancing Fe to Mn in my soil mix's for WOSS building.....I'm doing this (TM-7) with my few synthetic runs, and considering trying it as a supplement to the organic runs and not amending the soil to the "balance" point.

Thoughts from those shouted out to?

 

[Heil Tweetler]

@churchhaze @Heil Tweetler

I'm digging this thread back up.

Much has happened since it's first posting.

We know that Mel Frank did a micro mix to increase THC (cannabinoid) compounds.

His mix was higher in Fe then Mn and that lead to higher CBD levels (He didn't know that then). So simply balancing the Mn to the Fe flipped that formula to increase THC over CBD.

"Mel Frank offers this micronutrient formula for high cannabinoid production: Fe-sulfate (5 mg/gal), Cu-sulfate (0.2 mg/gal), Mn-sulfate (2 mg/gal), Zn-sulfate (0.2 mg/gal), Boric acid (2 mg/gal), Molybdenic acid (0.1 mg/gal). Use 1 tspn/gal of nutrient solution, once monthly."

Now this is Mel's formula from that book. Like I said the Fe is high and that's generating more CBD then THC production. It's easy to realize that from what we know about the Fe and Mn being equally balanced that we get more THC production over CBD. So the next step would be to raise the Mn content to be equal, correct?

While talking over the phone to my BIO AG rep. (farming reasons). The conversation slipped over to cannabis growing. We talked about some differing supplementations between what I was doing and what he was doing. I gave him the formula Mel was using and the balancing of the Mn to the Fe. He said, "Wait a minute! We have something that's almost exactly what you're describing, in our line of products! Take a look at our TM-7 micro & humic mix...That has to be about exactly what Mel was doing but, with that balanced Mn to Fe your talking about."

Long story short. I took a look at the product PDF and saw this!

Guaranteed Analysis: Sulfur(S)........................2%
Copper (Cu)............0.31%
Boron (B).................0.37%
Iron (FE)......................1.2%
Cobalt (Co).............0.05%
Manganese (Mn)......1.2%
Molybdenum (M0)..0.1%
Zinc................................0.7%

Non-plant food ingredients: Humic 40% & Fulvic 10.5%

Derived from: Boron, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium molybdenate, zinc sulfate and chelated with humic and fulvic acids derived from fresh water cretaceous humate deposits.

GENERAL APPLICATION RATES:

Seed activation: For vegetable seeds soak 72 hours at 0.5g /gal. For other, soak for 24 hours at same ratio.
Soil and Container plants: 0.75-1.25g/gal of irrigation solution.
Hydroponic: 0.5-0.75g/gal of nutrient solution used in reservoir (use with every change. Top-offs can be chared with 1/4-1/2 normal rate).
Foliar Rates: .75g/gal every 7-10 days.
Field Use: 2-4 pounds per acre every 3-6 weeks. Pre-Plant Soil Conditioning/Bioremediation: 5-10 pounds per acre. 1/4 tsp= 1g 1/2tsp= 2g

*Please note approx 15% is insoluble and can be cast in compost or garden. Exceeding application rates can cause irregular growth. Store dry and away from excessive heat.

HOLY SHIT! A pre-mixed THC increasing formula!

Here we go, and with the proper figuring between us. We decided that the package instructions of 1/4 tsp per gallon was spot on for a 3-4 week re-application rate of this supplement was going to be the ball park way to go!

I'm giving it a try at the safety end of the 4 week re-amending!

I just thought that I would share this with any of you already doing this style of THC increase manipulation. You might want to give this a shot over making your own!
A paltry $ 16 bucks a 300 gr bag!

I did find my sweet spot in balancing Fe to Mn in my soil mix's for WOSS building.....I'm doing this (TM-7) with my few synthetic runs, and considering trying it as a supplement to the organic runs and not amending the soil to the "balance" point.

Thoughts from those shouted out to?

Ill give this a bit more thought but from experience I can tell you that I stopped using the TM7 product because I didn't need to add Fe or Mg at all. So, though the ratios in the product may be in balance, there is an assumption that your mix is gonna need all those elements in balance. In my mixes K, Fe and Mg need to be leached not supplemented. While I can use a bit of Cu, definitely more Mn and a bit of B.


I now use my pathetic math skills to dose with tiny applications of salts. Ive got a new batch about to start I can give periodic updates on my progress. Im working with an agronomist using data from Spectrum Analytics

 

[Dr. Who]

I see, and understand. Good point Tweetler...
The balanced amended soil is working well. the why change whats working ideal is in play there.

Still for the synthetic non-amended soil thing? I got the bag now, so I guess it'll be up to the final testing...for that choice...

Thanks.

 

[Heil Tweetler]

I see, and understand. Good point Tweetler...
The balanced amended soil is working well. the why change whats working ideal is in play there.

Still for the synthetic non-amended soil thing? I got the bag now, so I guess it'll be up to the final testing...for that choice...

Thanks.

Yup.

When you review your analysis and determine what you need to get the ratios you're looking for, only then, decide on amendments. No advantage to adding elements that are already at very high levels.

I just sent off a sample today. If it shows something interesting I'll post it up.

 

[Dr. Who]

@Heil Tweetler
l'd like to see that soil report sir!

Had to do testing, your correct! I expected some of them too....
Some interesting observations:

Update:
I took some clones I would have otherwise culled and did some experimenting....

BE FUCKING CAREFUL with this stuff....several points to consider.

It's way powerful vs Mel's type formula..

1 plant was treated once in veg, again at bloom transition, and again 30days. 1/4 tsp per gallon....As expected that was way too much and lock outs happened from improper relationships between compounds (from build ups - over use)
The Fe was blocked and bud development was retarded, badly...culled!

1 plant was fed the 1/4 tsp in veg and left at that. Before the last up-potting (to bloom pot). She was showing light expressions of that Fe blocking.....After up-potting. She shows that the possible problem is clearing - further time needed to qualify this observation.

1 plant was done in my SS. Does NOT work well with that at all. I rather expected that! Do not supplement with high dose's of micro's if you build SS......Possible, low amounts of use? To be further explored....say maybe a 1/8 or 1/16 tsp at the flip?

The other plants (3) were done as: 1 multi treatment at veg, and the start of bloom and at 30 days. Heavy feeding GG4 strain. Shows certain Fe blocking again. Culled, as I know what the bud formation would have done....retarded...

There were several strains already in bloom that got the treatment. No visible blocking.... Yet there appears to be some lower bud sizing for the time in bloom. Bulking is just starting so more to come on that.

Things to ponder:

I'll measure in grains for this, on any next testing.
Looking at 1/3 of 1/4 tsp as a starting point for that.
Most likely will be at transition and once halfway through bloom.

I feel this stuff will work. Just has to be inline with Mel's delivered concentration rates of application. Could be further lowering of amounts applied!

Any use in soils of an "over the counter - 30 day feeding" type. Show promise in use at low amounts used.

Not so for full on organic SS use...

Yet, any "key" to soil use, may well depend on soil testing to hit those 100 ppm per Fe and Mn levels found to be effective in other advanced growers use. This brings me to believe that building soils and using this product to reach those 100 ppm levels in the soil. May be the effective thing to do.....SS or even the "over the counter 30 day" soils.

This will be my 3rd step in testing...

You can see that this will take some time to actually nail down solid, effective, information.

I will keep you all informed.

Please use what's given so far and don't over use it. Start LOW and avoid multiple supplementing. Unless of course, your experimenting too. I hope this early info helps that as a guide...

Further observations as they arise...

Peace!

 

[0321Marine]

This is awesome @Dr. Who. Could you do me a favor though and call Iron Fe and not Ir. Ir is Irridium, and I doubt people really want to add that to their soil.

THIS!

lol.. I clicked on this thread because I saw that people were possibly recommending to add iridium to their soil.