18x12 room what cobs and how many

[PotHead3]

im trying to get away with using less cobs as 1 per sqft means i need 216 cobs. i was looking at growmau5 kit but it just isnt right enough for what i want. the citizen cobs cu058 says it can push over 300watts and im thinking of pushing 150 from that to use less cobs to cover the whole 216sqft area. how many citizens at 150w each should i get and with what drivers.? im trying to lower cost as much as possible as. i saw that 1 cu058 cob should cover 2x2 or should it cover a 1.5x1.5 all of this would be saving me time and cost of heatsinks. at a large scale it makes a good difference. so any help will be apprieciated. this will be replacing 9 gavitas or 9000 watts

 

[qballizhere]

im trying to get away with using less cobs as 1 per sqft means i need 216 cobs. i was looking at growmau5 kit but it just isnt right enough for what i want. the citizen cobs cu058 says it can push over 300watts and im thinking of pushing 150 from that to use less cobs to cover the whole 216sqft area. how many citizens at 150w each should i get and with what drivers.? im trying to lower cost as much as possible as. i saw that 1 cu058 cob should cover 2x2 or should it cover a 1.5x1.5 all of this would be saving me time and cost of heatsinks. at a large scale it makes a good difference. so any help will be apprieciated. this will be replacing 9 gavitas or 9000 watts

What is the budget like for the built? I know you say your trying to cut costs but its going to be $6500-7500 to replace the gavitas with leds are you ready for that kind of upgrade? You will be building the fixtures to save the $100-150 each for preassembled fixtures.
I have a similar size room its 12x16 and I grow in rows of 3 x 8 there is 4 of them so a can walk in between them and what i did was 6 citizen 1818 cobs per 3x4 area @ 1.4A that gives you a ppfd of about 800 if the current was 2.1A then the ppfd would be about 1125.
I also run the luminus cxm22 in flower and they are a little cheaper than the citizen.

 

[PotHead3]

What is the budget like for the built? I know you say your trying to cut costs but its going to be $6500-7500 to replace the gavitas with leds are you ready for that kind of upgrade? You will be building the fixtures to save the $100-150 each for preassembled fixtures.
I have a similar size room its 12x16 and I grow in rows of 3 x 8 there is 4 of them so a can walk in between them and what i did was 6 citizen 1818 cobs per 3x4 area @ 1.4A that gives you a ppfd of about 800 if the current was 2.1A then the ppfd would be about 1125.
I also run the luminus cxm22 in flower and they are a little cheaper than the citizen.

6 cobs per 3x4 area would mean you need 12 cobs for a 6x4 area. how many watts would that be using cause a gavita covers 6x4 area

i was thinking about 6 cu058 since you can run the at about 150 watts each to get effieceny like cxb3590. that would come out to 900 watts to cover the same as gavitas. but the way you seem to have it i would just stick with gavita i think. and i would love to save 100-150 and cut cost down.

 

[qballizhere]

yes 48 cobs total the driver I would recommend is the elg 240 54 d2 drivers each driver would be 250 watts and you would have 2 cobs per driver. You can use the 058 but they are 2x the cost for the cob and heat sinks. The citizen 1818 is most efficient at 150w
The D2 also have built in dimming so if you want to automatically have the lights come on at 30% and ramp up they will with the built in software. Then at the ebnd of the day they will dim from max power to 30%

 

[OrganicGorilla]

im trying to get away with using less cobs as 1 per sqft means i need 216 cobs. i was looking at growmau5 kit but it just isnt right enough for what i want. the citizen cobs cu058 says it can push over 300watts and im thinking of pushing 150 from that to use less cobs to cover the whole 216sqft area. how many citizens at 150w each should i get and with what drivers.? im trying to lower cost as much as possible as. i saw that 1 cu058 cob should cover 2x2 or should it cover a 1.5x1.5 all of this would be saving me time and cost of heatsinks. at a large scale it makes a good difference. so any help will be apprieciated. this will be replacing 9 gavitas or 9000 watts

That's gunna be quite costly but well worth the upgrade. I'd love to see your setup once it's all finished

 

[sunny747]

Mmmmm.. Talk to CobKits he will give you good advice and have the most cost effective solution. I don't see GrowMau5's kits to be priced that well.

Those cobs can push 300 watts, but that's not taking into consideration the accumulated heat from 200 in a relatively small space.. Running them even at 150 watts will be pretty hot I think and you may be giving up efficiency which is likely the reason you want to upgrade. I'll go out on a limb and guess that you run AC though so maybe it's not so important. Another thing to consider is that the cobs aren't as easily air cooled as an HID in a hood.

When I pump the Vero 29's up to 100 watts a piece there is a lot of heat. At 75 watts they run nice and cool and the plants seem to like it better. I just have 2 vero 29's in a 2x2 so don't let me mislead you into thinking I am an expert.

Is there a passive heatsink that can handle 150 watts?

 

[PotHead3]

Mmmmm.. Talk to CobKits he will give you good advice and have the most cost effective solution. I don't see GrowMau5's kits to be priced that well.

Those cobs can push 300 watts, but that's not taking into consideration the accumulated heat from 200 in a relatively small space.. Running them even at 150 watts will be pretty hot I think and you may be giving up efficiency which is likely the reason you want to upgrade. I'll go out on a limb and guess that you run AC though so maybe it's not so important. Another thing to consider is that the cobs aren't as easily air cooled as an HID in a hood.

When I pump the Vero 29's up to 100 watts a piece there is a lot of heat. At 75 watts they run nice and cool and the plants seem to like it better. I just have 2 vero 29's in a 2x2 so don't let me mislead you into thinking I am an expert. ohh i doubt i have to worry about heat running 200 cobs since i already run 9 gavitas and supposedly the cobs give less heat more light. in fact it may be too cold i may turn off the exhaust fan run sealed with ac and use co2

Is there a passive heatsink that can handle 150 watts?

yes thats true but i never bothered wasting money and time on air cooled. i just run a filter and fan and get average 84 temps which is perfect for big buds. the citizen cu058 cobs can be pushed to run over 300 watts i would push to run at 120-150 to get my savings on electric. ac or not is not an issue i need to solve this part of my eqaution first i dont need help with any other parts of the equation i just need to know about these cobs comparison and what i should use regardless of temp how i water and everything else. i know about cooling and i can add ac if i want. i just want to know what heatsink i need and how many i have to run. you guys dont have to think about anything else except what i asked. when i get this done and ordered i will show my build. fyi most information on the forums need to be disected extensively to find out what the truth is. anyone wanna argue that my 84 temp is too high probably read somewhere instead of having experience

 

[PotHead3]

yes 48 cobs total the driver I would recommend is the elg 240 54 d2 drivers each driver would be 250 watts and you would have 2 cobs per driver. You can use the 058 but they are 2x the cost for the cob and heat sinks. The citizen 1818 is most efficient at 150w
The D2 also have built in dimming so if you want to automatically have the lights come on at 30% and ramp up they will with the built in software. Then at the ebnd of the day they will dim from max power to 30%

thanks for replying but why do u say the cu058 is double the cost of cobs what cobs are u comparing. to me it seems the cost is cheaper using 058 but i havent calculated the heatsink yet. if one cu058 cost 60 and a cxb cost 50 and i can supplement one cu058 for 3 cxb3590. my cu058 is much cheaper already. but with cost of heatsink calculated into it. the cost wont be the same. thats why i need the cost to decide which direction i want to go at. eventually i will be ordering a few thousands of each item to lower cost. and if it works i have many people waiting for my results.

 

[PotHead3]

That's gunna be quite costly but well worth the upgrade. I'd love to see your setup once it's all finished

quite costly yes but if the numbers are acceptable eventually cobs will take over the lighting market its just when will it happen

 

[sunny747]

Talk to cobkits... He will have the answer. You can PM him.

 

[qballizhere]

thanks for replying but why do u say the cu058 is double the cost of cobs what cobs are u comparing. to me it seems the cost is cheaper using 058 but i havent calculated the heatsink yet. if one cu058 cost 60 and a cxb cost 50 and i can supplement one cu058 for 3 cxb3590. my cu058 is much cheaper already. but with cost of heatsink calculated into it. the cost wont be the same. thats why i need the cost to decide which direction i want to go at. eventually i will be ordering a few thousands of each item to lower cost. and if it works i have many people waiting for my results.

I say they are double the cost when I am comparing them to citizen 1818
The 048-1825 best efficiency is 160W and can handle 5.75A the 048-1818 best efficiency is 150W and can handle 4.14A
The citizen 1825 in a 3x4 area 6 cobs 1.4A has a ppfd of 830 they are $40 a cob plus heatsink driver ect
The citizen 1818 in a 3x4 area 6 cobs 1.4A has a ppfd of 780 they are $25 a cob " " " " "
To me say 10 ppfd per cob difference is not worth almost double the price per cob.
All the pricing I am looking at is coming from cobkits website
It really depends on what your goals are if you want the power and efficiency in the most wattage available, if you want to over drive them and lower efficiency and use less cobs, if you want to seal the room and add co2 there are several different factors and choices.

 

[xboxwarrior]

Hey guys, any new thoughts on the Citizen 048-1825 vs. the Citizen 048-1825?

@qballizhere - you make a strong argument for the 1818's due to pricing and small gains in PPFD.

GrowMau5 has been a great mentor for learning much over the last year, but he doesn't hit much on these and is still focusing on the CXB3590's and most recently the Vero 29's. Wonder why he is lacking information on the Citizen COB's as they are quite interesting to me as well, lack of efficiency compared to the lower wattage competition possibly?

I am interested in replacing only 2000W of HPS currently and the Citizen 1818's are looking promising as a cost effective solution until I have money to upgrade to more efficient/ higher number of COBs.

While on the subject, I am still torn betwen the best Kelvin rating to choose for full cycle growth. I know that the most common seems to be 3500K as an all around veg/flower choice but I am now leaning towards the 3000K to get the extra red boost in flower. Seems there might be enough blue in 3000K to suffice for veg. Vitaly uses the 3000K Samsung LM561C diodes which was interesting to me but he also supplements blue and red.

Since a month is like a year in the LED world any new thoughts would be greatly appreciated! I love RIU, been a member since '06 but haven't been posting or using much in the last few years. Ready to get back into scouring the forums with my thinking cap on and a joint in my mouth.

 

[qballizhere]

Hey guys, any new thoughts on the Citizen 048-1825 vs. the Citizen 048-1825?

@qballizhere - you make a strong argument for the 1818's due to pricing and small gains in PPFD.

GrowMau5 has been a great mentor for learning much over the last year, but he doesn't hit much on these and is still focusing on the CXB3590's and most recently the Vero 29's. Wonder why he is lacking information on the Citizen COB's as they are quite interesting to me as well, lack of efficiency compared to the lower wattage competition possibly?

I am interested in replacing only 2000W of HPS currently and the Citizen 1818's are looking promising as a cost effective solution until I have money to upgrade to more efficient/ higher number of COBs.

While on the subject, I am still torn betwen the best Kelvin rating to choose for full cycle growth. I know that the most common seems to be 3500K as an all around veg/flower choice but I am now leaning towards the 3000K to get the extra red boost in flower. Seems there might be enough blue in 3000K to suffice for veg. Vitaly uses the 3000K Samsung LM561C diodes which was interesting to me but he also supplements blue and red.

Since a month is like a year in the LED world any new thoughts would be greatly appreciated! I love RIU, been a member since '06 but haven't been posting or using much in the last few years. Ready to get back into scouring the forums with my thinking cap on and a joint in my mouth.

If you think that is a good argument here is another for you the luminus cxm22 is the same output as the citizen 1818 its a little more efficient and its only$19 per cob.I think they have a little more red in them at the same 3000k. I have both the 1818 and cxm22 in flower both are 3000k 80 cri
It really depends on your area and budget. Really the main difference between the citizen cree luminus vero and a few others is the voltage required to run the cobs.
I would run the 3500 and if you want more red for flower you could do the far red at lights out. One thing to keep in mind is the higher kelvin you go the tighter node spacing is.
a 4x4 area needs 8 cobs @ 1.4a would give you a ppfd of 780 and that would be good if you are not running co2 of you are running co2 or want to then the same 8 cobs @ 2.1A would give you a ppfd of 1125 for me its easier and cheaper to just increase the amperage the cobs are getting and have good airflow than to increase the number of cobs.
A year ago it would cost you $1200 to replace hps with a cob led now you can get it done for less than $600 per light

 

[xboxwarrior]

@qballizhere - Thanks for the response and providing some new information (to me at least) about the Luminus cxm22. I try to read as much as possible but with LED the learning process is never done.

My real interest is in the mid power Samsung LM561C diodes (or the unreleased Cree NX Technology but that's still a shadow at this point).

There are a few DIY options I've studied featuring the samsung diodes, such as the QB and @welight with his new Sol-Skin boards, seems these are shaping up to be the future of LED lighting. You get a better uniformity ratio as well as higher efficacy compared to the COB's, depending on the drive current.

I have some ideas in mind that could maybe improve upon the current PCB designs featuring the LM561's with supplemental red diodes, but still in the R&D stage of my work.

Biggest advantages I see with the Sol-Skin boards are the option to run the three channels on separate drivers, as well as a full dedicated red channel to boost flowering. Super great stuff by Cutter and Mark! Shout out to @robincnn as well, he's done RIU and our industry a great service with the products and knowledge being offered openly to educate laymen such as me, much appreciated!

One thing that's come to mind with both of these boards is the lack of UV spectrum, anybody have thoughts on what diodes might be a good option to fill that gap on these boards? On the Sol-Skin it would be great to see a diode which could be added into the white channel, just a few watts to reach that low percentage but still necessary UV in the McCree curve. Thoughts on a diode what can be driven on that channel or some current as the LM561's, eliminating the need for a separate UV channel?

I see that this thread is in grow room setup and not LED so hope mods don't mind the discussion here.

 

[welight]

@qballizhere - Thanks for the response and providing some new information (to me at least) about the Luminus cxm22. I try to read as much as possible but with LED the learning process is never done.

My real interest is in the mid power Samsung LM561C diodes (or the unreleased Cree NX Technology but that's still a shadow at this point).

There are a few DIY options I've studied featuring the samsung diodes, such as the QB and @welight with his new Sol-Skin boards, seems these are shaping up to be the future of LED lighting. You get a better uniformity ratio as well as higher efficacy compared to the COB's, depending on the drive current.

I have some ideas in mind that could maybe improve upon the current PCB designs featuring the LM561's with supplemental red diodes, but still in the R&D stage of my work.

Biggest advantages I see with the Sol-Skin boards are the option to run the three channels on separate drivers, as well as a full dedicated red channel to boost flowering. Super great stuff by Cutter and Mark! Shout out to @robincnn as well, he's done RIU and our industry a great service with the products and knowledge being offered openly to educate laymen such as me, much appreciated!

One thing that's come to mind with both of these boards is the lack of UV spectrum, anybody have thoughts on what diodes might be a good option to fill that gap on these boards? On the Sol-Skin it would be great to see a diode which could be added into the white channel, just a few watts to reach that low percentage but still necessary UV in the McCree curve. Thoughts on a diode what can be driven on that channel or some current as the LM561's, eliminating the need for a separate UV channel?

I see that this thread is in grow room setup and not LED so hope mods don't mind the discussion here.

Definitely possible to drop some violet/uv into the white channels to shorten up the wavelength, interested in your comment on the NX tech, we in fact specifically designed the Deep Red Channel in this foot print to accomodate XD16 ie all veg board
Cheers
Mark

 

[xboxwarrior]

@welight I appreciate the response Mark!

What might the options be for the violet/UV diodes which you could add to your Sol-Skin boards? SemiLed? From my research Cree is no longer making UV diodes, but I'm not an expert so an opinion from one would be great.

Great thinking about the preplanning for the XD16 release, those are sure change the game entirely if they stack up, which I'm sure they will.

Did you happen to get your hands on any of the engineering samples of the XD16?

 

[welight]

@welight I appreciate the response Mark!

What might the options be for the violet/UV diodes which you could add to your Sol-Skin boards? SemiLed? From my research Cree is no longer making UV diodes, but I'm not an expert so an opinion from one would be great.

Great thinking about the preplanning for the XD16 release, those are sure change the game entirely if they stack up, which I'm sure they will.

Did you happen to get your hands on any of the engineering samples of the XD16?

will be checking on 5630 uv options and will advise, yes have some XD16 underway, maybe late next week
Cheers
Mark