Nute Burn: How to cool down the heat on FFOF

[Roggers]

That's right. FoxFarm's soil is too expensive and too nuted for me. I started using this a few years ago, and I loved how it jumpstarted my seeds, and the speed of root growth. But in every case, once I transplanted from cup to earth pot, I had to deal with nute burn. At first, I thought it was something I was doing, so I kept a close eye on the first three four weeks after transplant, and the only common thread throughout my grows (12-15), is the nute burn that comes after transplant.
So, this time I played it safe and FLUSHeD FFOF BEFORE transplanting and that was four days ago. I haven't seen any nute burn so far. So, if you're suffering from nute burn after planting in FFOF, and you know better than to add nutes before the third-fourth week, perhaps flushing out the soil will work for you, too!
Meanwhile I have been watching a lot of Foxfarm discounts on Amazon lately. Two weeks ago, I kept ignoring the popup on their site, offering 12qts of FFOF for 5.72, because my pots are 5 gal and up. Finally, I read the popup and realized what I almost missed!!
I got out my calculator and34 cubic feet of FFOF for the price of one! (with the help of some friends) I could only get 3 bags at a time, but it worth the coordinating with others. That price disappeared by the end of the evening, but two days later, FF is selling 1.5 c ft of FFOF for 18.00!! What the hey??

So, now I'm wondering what's going on with them, because if they realize their customers are buying less or getting soil elsewhere, those bags are going to sit there. If they're getting complaints on how their soil affects young plants, they know that soil is going to sit there.
But if they're in the process of coming out with something new, they need to get those bags moving. Now that I know to flush my soil before planting in it, I'm going to keep stocking up as long as the sales are there, though I think I'll go back to mixing my soil after I go through what I have now. I just prefer to be in control of what I add, and when I add it. Besides I actually enjoyed mixing my own soil, you know?

 

[SteamyD.]

What was in the cup before transplant?

 

[Underground Scientist]

I've started blending it 50/50 with a soilless media - Sunshine Advanced #4, but I'm sure you could cut it with ProMix too.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

I just add 20-25% large perlite and break all the clumps up and mix real well in a big Rubbermaid type tub.

And then water to runoff before planting and especially when transplanting or adding nutes once depleted.

It's not hot. It's just an amended growing medium. But it is thick and needs help with drainage in my experience. Or you get the same symptoms as nute burn because the excess doesn't drain out.

 

[Roggers]

What was in the cup before transplant?

I used the FFOF in the cup, but it seems like when I transplant it into more FFOF (with perlite to aerate and lighten it up), and check the ph/ppm, the strength of nutes rises again. That's with distilled water, too, so I'm trying to keep things as neutral as possible.

 

[Roggers]

I've started blending it 50/50 with a soilless media - Sunshine Advanced #4, but I'm sure you could cut it with ProMix too.

Yeah, that's a good idea, too. I used to mix mine with Happy Frog, but darn it! I'm getting tired of buying what is supposed to be "All you need," only to have to further amend to make it workable. I'm not naive in expecting it to be perfect, but I would appreciate not having to learn the lesson through putting my seeds (which are pretty costly,too) in the line of fire.

 

[Roggers]

I just add 20-25% large perlite and break all the clumps up and mix real well in a big Rubbermaid type tub.

And then water to runoff before planting and especially when transplanting or adding nutes once depleted.

It's not hot. It's just an amended growing medium. But it is thick and needs help with drainage in my experience. Or you get the same symptoms as nute burn because the excess doesn't drain out.

Thanks for the confirmation and the correction, Michigan! FFOF is not hot, but I when I see my girls get that brown tip and edge,, I think burn ->hot= pissed farmer! lol

And really, it's not all that big of a step to flush/water before planting. Being unable to move about freely here, I have to do it all "inside," so shortcuts are necessary. Just be sure to flush it using the same amount of water you'd use to flush it for a lock out. The soil will still be nutrient-rich, but you'll be able to start adding your own in a week or two(start slow and dilute), which is important for me, since I'm using Humboldt organic nutrients now.

 

[Underground Scientist]

Yeah, that's a good idea, too. I used to mix mine with Happy Frog, but darn it! I'm getting tired of buying what is supposed to be "All you need," only to have to further amend to make it workable. I'm not naive in expecting it to be perfect, but I would appreciate not having to learn the lesson through putting my seeds (which are pretty costly,too) in the line of fire.

Not sure how big your space is, but I'm an advocate of doing small runs...I run Regs, so I'll pop 4 each time, then start another batch every 2 Weeks, kill off the males, choose good ones to clone, then your flush with small plants and can choose only the best ones. Point is, start a few every two weeks...pay attention to what you do, watch how the plants respond, then adapt the next run and see what happens. That's how you get the experience of multiple grows in a single cycle. Dialing shit in is the frustrating part. I'm still fuckin dialing.

 

[Nugachino]

That's easy. Put hot soil on the bottom. And cover with 1/3 - 1/2 plain soil. By the time your plants reach the hotter stuff. They should be strong enough to be able to handle it.

Better yet. Build a soil. Recycle your garden scraps. Feed some worms. And watch your plants reward your efforts with some really tasty nugs.

 

[Roggers]

That's easy. Put hot soil on the bottom. And cover with 1/3 - 1/2 plain soil. By the time your plants reach the hotter stuff. They should be strong enough to be able to handle it.

Better yet. Build a soil. Recycle your garden scraps. Feed some worms. And watch your plants reward your efforts with some really tasty nugs.

Exactly, Nug. Being from Sonoma County, I've been mixing my own soil since '96 (Alot of people don't know how "Clay-ey" this part of the state is), so I give props to the quality of Humboldt's nutrients, considering the area we live, work and play. At this point, if I am going back to mixing it myself (which I am), then all I want to do is research on what all the commercial soils are doing, seeing how much of it is truly acessible, and mix my own brew/teas to complement it.
I've had some of my most successful grows mixing my own, and as great as it is to just pick up a ready made bag, there's something about getting your hands dirty, that helps you to truly understand how, when and where nutrients work best.
I'm going to liken it to the difference of seeing the faces of my family when eating a 'store' bought pie, as opposed to eating one I made from scratch, which reminds me. I got some apples to peel and core!

 

[Yodaweed]

That's right. FoxFarm's soil is too expensive and too nuted for me. I started using this a few years ago, and I loved how it jumpstarted my seeds, and the speed of root growth. But in every case, once I transplanted from cup to earth pot, I had to deal with nute burn. At first, I thought it was something I was doing, so I kept a close eye on the first three four weeks after transplant, and the only common thread throughout my grows (12-15), is the nute burn that comes after transplant.
So, this time I played it safe and FLUSHeD FFOF BEFORE transplanting and that was four days ago. I haven't seen any nute burn so far. So, if you're suffering from nute burn after planting in FFOF, and you know better than to add nutes before the third-fourth week, perhaps flushing out the soil will work for you, too!
Meanwhile I have been watching a lot of Foxfarm discounts on Amazon lately. Two weeks ago, I kept ignoring the popup on their site, offering 12qts of FFOF for 5.72, because my pots are 5 gal and up. Finally, I read the popup and realized what I almost missed!!
I got out my calculator and34 cubic feet of FFOF for the price of one! (with the help of some friends) I could only get 3 bags at a time, but it worth the coordinating with others. That price disappeared by the end of the evening, but two days later, FF is selling 1.5 c ft of FFOF for 18.00!! What the hey??

So, now I'm wondering what's going on with them, because if they realize their customers are buying less or getting soil elsewhere, those bags are going to sit there. If they're getting complaints on how their soil affects young plants, they know that soil is going to sit there.
But if they're in the process of coming out with something new, they need to get those bags moving. Now that I know to flush my soil before planting in it, I'm going to keep stocking up as long as the sales are there, though I think I'll go back to mixing my soil after I go through what I have now. I just prefer to be in control of what I add, and when I add it. Besides I actually enjoyed mixing my own soil, you know?

Stop using that garbage and make your own mix or find a better brand. It's not even organic to begin with you could do so much better for the same price.

 

[GrnMonStr]

Yeah, I used to make all my own soil in the past and this time I decided to try FFOF for the first time. I also thought it was a little high on the nitrogen side as well. I would cut this as others have recommended, or make your own its more fun that way. But if for some reason you cant then cut with something that has no added food in it.

 

[BRANDON77]

That's right. FoxFarm's soil is too expensive and too nuted for me. I started using this a few years ago, and I loved how it jumpstarted my seeds, and the speed of root growth. But in every case, once I transplanted from cup to earth pot, I had to deal with nute burn. At first, I thought it was something I was doing, so I kept a close eye on the first three four weeks after transplant, and the only common thread throughout my grows (12-15), is the nute burn that comes after transplant.
So, this time I played it safe and FLUSHeD FFOF BEFORE transplanting and that was four days ago. I haven't seen any nute burn so far. So, if you're suffering from nute burn after planting in FFOF, and you know better than to add nutes before the third-fourth week, perhaps flushing out the soil will work for you, too!
Meanwhile I have been watching a lot of Foxfarm discounts on Amazon lately. Two weeks ago, I kept ignoring the popup on their site, offering 12qts of FFOF for 5.72, because my pots are 5 gal and up. Finally, I read the popup and realized what I almost missed!!
I got out my calculator and34 cubic feet of FFOF for the price of one! (with the help of some friends) I could only get 3 bags at a time, but it worth the coordinating with others. That price disappeared by the end of the evening, but two days later, FF is selling 1.5 c ft of FFOF for 18.00!! What the hey??

So, now I'm wondering what's going on with them, because if they realize their customers are buying less or getting soil elsewhere, those bags are going to sit there. If they're getting complaints on how their soil affects young plants, they know that soil is going to sit there.
But if they're in the process of coming out with something new, they need to get those bags moving. Now that I know to flush my soil before planting in it, I'm going to keep stocking up as long as the sales are there, though I think I'll go back to mixing my soil after I go through what I have now. I just prefer to be in control of what I add, and when I add it. Besides I actually enjoyed mixing my own soil, you know?

Fox farms sells it for like 7. I pay $9.20 at my local shop. Full retail might be 18.

 

[WeedFreak78]

I run, appx, 40%FFOF, 40% FFHF and 20% rice hulls. Never any burn.

"Flushing"....... fresh soil before planting, to wash out nutrients, is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. You're going to spend money to buy enriched soil, just to wash out the nutes, because you think its too hot, so you can then add them back in later?

I never "Flush", (correct term: leech), in soil. I water a little, almost every day. I only water to get run off 2-3 times in flower, once going into flower, once around week 4, once about a week before the chop, then water only till the end. . No burn, healthy and green till the end, always tastes great.

Buy a $5 bag of seed starting soil and put a couple handfuls of that in the center of the FFOF when you transplant. No burn and it'll allow the transplants to grow into the FF.

I've popped all my seeds straight in the mix i run, and I've popped straight in super soil I've made in the past. Whether my thinking is correct or not, IDK, but I figure if they aren't strong enough to make it, I don't want them. Anything I've grown like that became monsters, so I'm doing something right, i guess.

 

[WeedFreak78]

Fox farms sells it for like 7. I pay $9.20 at my local shop. Full retail might be 18.

Where?

 

[Roggers]

I run, appx, 40%FFOF, 40% FFHF and 20% rice hulls. Never any burn.

• I think this is great that you haven't experience nute burn, but the reality is, more people HAVE, and for that reason, it's an issue. Period. The fact that Foxfarm acknowledges this, validates the concern of those who are seasoned gardeners. Heck, it validates the "non-seasoned" as well, if they're buying something based on reports lacking "full disclosure."

I
"Flushing"....... fresh soil before planting, to wash out nutrients, is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. You're going to spend money to buy enriched soil, just to wash out the nutes, because you think its too hot, so you can then add them back in later?

• Let's be clear: I'm not so sensitive as to be offended by your "asinine" comment, but I find such comments on discussion boards unnecessary and alienating to people who are really trying to learn something here. If you truly read my posts, you'd see that I initially had no idea of how high the nitrogen level was, and in fact, every person I've come in contact with over FFOF says the same thing. The choice I made in dealing with this, is anything but asinine when there are few other alternatives, all of which I did address.
  Also, Flushing/Leaching isn't simply about removing nutrients or salts from the soil. It's about making those nutrients AVAILABLE. BIG DIFFERENCE. Yeah, when people refer to flushing,they only see it in terms of getting rid of something, but in fact, what you're doing is removing the blockage - in most cases, the salts - that are responsible for the lock-out of other important minerals/nutrients. So it really isn't that big of deal, which is what you're making of it.

I never "Flush", (correct term: leech), in soil. I water a little, almost every day. I only water to get run off 2-3 times in flower, once going into flower, once around week 4, once about a week before the chop, then water only till the end. . No burn, healthy and green till the end, always tastes great.

• Look, the ONLY difference between flushing and "LEACHING" is the amount of water used, and the speed in which it is applied. Leaching is a "mini-flushing" and great when giving systemic aid to a plant, gradually feeding it to water, or to measure ppm's. Flushing breaks down, pushes through and opens the soil to remove salts and allow for the root to rebuild its symbiotic relationship with the soil and food.
  
  Bottom line: The purpose of flushing/leaching has always been, and continues to be for the purpose of making available nutrients that have either been 'locked out', or are unavailable to the root system. The rest is semantics.

Buy a $5 bag of seed starting soil and put a couple handfuls of that in the center of the FFOF when you transplant. No burn and it'll allow the transplants to grow into the FF.

Great. Thanks.
I've popped all my seeds straight in the mix i run, and I've popped straight in super soil I've made in the past. Whether my thinking is correct or not, IDK, but I figure if they aren't strong enough to make it, I don't want them. Anything I've grown like that became monsters, so I'm doing something right, i guess.

Yeah, you're doing everything right...absolutely perfect. Great. Now, can we get back to the community discussion on how to GROW A CROP...WITH CONFIDENCE...RECOGNIZING TRIAL AND ERROR AS A NECESSARY PART OF LEARNING...WITHOUT CONCERN OF BEING CONDEMNED OR BELITTLED FOR DOING SO...

 

[Roggers]

Fox farms sells it for like 7. I pay $9.20 at my local shop. Full retail might be 18.

Wow, that's an amazing price!

 

[Roggers]

Where?

Where do you get your information from? "Flushing" is term that's been used in relation to soil for centuries -CENTURIES! As I said before, flushing is not an act of removing nutrients ---which it does --- it's the process by which you make nutrients available to a root system that is being prevented access to it. That's removing - dissolving, breaking down, diluting, - ANYTHING that's between the root and what it needs to survive and thrive.

 

[WeedFreak78]

I run, appx, 40%FFOF, 40% FFHF and 20% rice hulls. Never any burn.

• I think this is great that you haven't experience nute burn, but the reality is, more people HAVE, and for that reason, it's an issue. Period. The fact that Foxfarm acknowledges this, validates the concern of those who are seasoned gardeners. Heck, it validates the "non-seasoned" as well, if they're buying something based on reports lacking "full disclosure."

You really think more people than not experience nute burn from FF? For every one person saying they have an issue, there's probably 20 tooling right along without issue. And of the people having issues, I'd be willing to bet only a small fraction are experiencing burn from the soil, there are probably other factors. I've never heard anything about FF saying their soils are too hot and to cut them and I researched them quite a bit before using it. They address burning with their liquid fertilizers in their FAQ, but say to just to follow the directions. I just find it odd I've had 6-8 different strains going at any one time and never had any problems, and I cut clones right into it also, weird? I'm trying to stop "non seasoned" gardeners from being misinformed and "seasoned" incorrectly.

"Flushing"....... fresh soil before planting, to wash out nutrients, is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. You're going to spend money to buy enriched soil, just to w4ash out the nutes, because you think its too hot, so you can then add them back in later?

• Let's be clear: I'm not so sensitive as to be offended by your "asinine" comment, but I find such comments on discussion boards unnecessary and alienating to people who are really trying to learn something here. If you truly read my posts, you'd see that I initially had no idea of how high the nitrogen level was, and in fact, every person I've come in contact with over FFOF says the same thing. The choice I made in dealing with this, is anything but asinine when there are few other alternatives, all of which I did address.

• In you're first post, You make the assumption its high in N. You talk about nute burn at every transplant, which doesn't make sense. If they were growing in FF, they aren't going to burn going into more FF, especially now that they, hopefully, are larger plants. I read about people having issues in the forum, but IRL I've set up 5 different people with this mix and not ones had issues.

• Also, Flushing/Leaching isn't simply about removing nutrients or salts from the soil. It's about making those nutrients AVAILABLE. BIG DIFFERENCE. Yeah, when people refer to flushing,they only see it in terms of getting rid of something, but in fact, what you're doing is removing the blockage - in most cases, the salts - that are responsible for the lock-out of other important minerals/nutrients. So it really isn't that big of deal, which is what you're making of it.

• Leaching is solely to remove built up toxins from the medium. It doesn't make anything more available. It'll help a toxic condition allowing the plant to resume normal activity. Soil shouldn't have salt buildup, period. If someone's getting it, they're dumping excessive nutes into it and need to stop. Feed appropriately and water to runoff occasionally.

• I never "Flush", (correct term: leech), in soil. I water a little, almost every day. I only water to get run off 2-3 times in flower, once going into flower, once around week 4, once about a week before the chop, then water only till the end. . No burn, healthy and green till the end, always tastes great.
  
  
  [*]Look, the ONLY difference between flushing and "LEACHING" is the amount of water used, and the speed in which it is applied. Leaching is a "mini-flushing" and great when giving systemic aid to a plant, gradually feeding it to water, or to measure ppm's. Flushing breaks down, pushes through and opens the soil to remove salts and allow for the root to rebuild its symbiotic relationship with the soil and food.
  
  Bottom line: The purpose of flushing/leaching has always been, and continues to be for the purpose of making available nutrients that have either been 'locked out', or are unavailable to the root system. The rest is semantics.

• Technically leaching is "flushing", there's no difference, doesn't matter how much or how fast. If you're getting runoff, you're leaching. "Flushing" is just common nomenclature in the cannabis world, referring to the poor practice of flooding soil. This is what I want to stop, it's a waste and unnecessary. Occasional watering to runoff is all the leaching that's really needed.

I've popped all my seeds straight in the mix i run, and I've popped straight in super soil I've made in the past. Whether my thinking is correct or not, IDK, but I figure if they aren't strong enough to make it, I don't want them. Anything I've grown like that became monsters, so I'm doing something right, i guess.

Yeah, you're doing everything right...absolutely perfect. Great. Now, can we get back to the community discussion on how to GROW A CROP...WITH CONFIDENCE...RECOGNIZING TRIAL AND ERROR AS A NECESSARY PART OF LEARNING...WITHOUT CONCERN OF BEING CONDEMNED OR BELITTLED FOR DOING SO...

If you want your hands held and head stroked, I'm not your guy. I might be an asshole, but I won't lead someone wrong. Keep washing the nutes you paid for out of your soil, I don't really care.

Where do you get your information from? "Flushing" is term that's been used in relation to soil for centuries -CENTURIES! As I said before, flushing is not an act of removing nutrients ---which it does --- it's the process by which you make nutrients available to a root system that is being prevented access to it. That's removing - dissolving, breaking down, diluting, - ANYTHING that's between the root and what it needs to survive and thrive.

I read Agricultural based research papers, generally. It's the only information I really trust for growing. There's too much myth and conjecture on these boards. The references to leaching I've seen in agriculture involved washing fields of toxins after hazardous spills and one reference, that was recently brought to my attention, about leaching container plants through normal watering runoff, which happens to be what I've always done. Nothing, ever, about excessively flooding the soil to wash out nutes , salts, etc.

Again, leaching doesn't make anything available to the plant. It's a common method used to wash excess salts from the medium in HYDRO. It's not regularly used in commercial soil grows, so I see no reason to.

 

[Roggers]

I really have no time for your hostility. You entered into this conversation, took my words out of context, and started throwing your weight around, like some kid in need of attention. Then when I didn't respond the way you expected, you got even more obnoxious. Now, where I work, it's not unusual running into your personality. I know there are probably dozens of medical reasons for your behavior. It's unfortunate that at the end of the day you've chosen to share it with me, because I'm not intimidated. I just find you tedious and boring.
So, rather than contribute to your disruption, or whatever you're trying to prove, I'm ignoring you. Feel free to have the last word...or not.