Help needed with top dressing midway through flower

Bubba's girl

Bubba's girl

Well-Known Member
Hey guys, I'm just starting to get into organic growing, I'm using a water only recipe that Rasta Roy was kind enough to share. I have a few plants each in 15 gals of the mix, around day 35, the one strain is doing fine but the other is starting to fade prematurely, I'd like to slow that down. What would you recommend for a top dressing? I have leftovers of everything in the recipe, plus a few other things on hand like bone meal, bat guano, dolomite lime. I use RO water.

Thanks in advance.



15% peat moss, pine bark, or coco coir
35% aeration (I prefer Perlite or rice hulls but course Sand, and pumice are other options
50% composted organic matter (this could be compost, composted cow or horse manure, worm castings, leaf mold). I prefer a combination of as many different kinds of compost I can but whatever is available to you and the best quality is what you should lean on.

Feather Meal 1/2 cup per cubic foot
Crab shell meal or shrimp shell meal 1/2 cup per cubic foot
Fish Bone Meal 1/2 cup per cubic foot
Gypsum 1/2 cup per cubic foot
Langbeinite 1/4 cup per cubic foot
Kelp meal 1/2 cup per cubic foot
Alfalfa meal 1/4 cup per cubic foot
Oyster shell flour 1/4 cup per cubic foot
 
bizfactory

bizfactory

Well-Known Member
Depends on what the plant is lacking. Do you have a picture? In my experience, once they start fading you will never go back...but you can slow it down.

Assuming it's N (lower leaves evenly fading to yellow and eventually dropping), I'd use alfalfa...and kelp because kelp is amazing in general. Fish bone meal would be ok too. Now that I think about it...I'd probably mix up those 3 to some degree. No more than a 1/2c total for the container. If the container is smaller than 15g then I wouldn't go over 1/4c total.
 
Richard Drysift

Richard Drysift

Well-Known Member
Problem is if you are seeing pale green now it will take time for a top dressing to break down and become available. That being said you could try to top dress with some fish bone meal and kelp but it will not produce results quickly; mid flowering may even already be too late. Chicken manure is a fast form of N and you wouldn't need much for a top dress just keep in mind too much could upset the fungi this late in the game. Adding just a tsp or 2 of chicken shit under the mulch and around the outside perimeter of the container should help green them up. If you are using RO water it's also possible your plants just need a boost of available cal-mag to help absorb everything else in the soil. I use gen organics cal-mag+ at 6 drops per gal.
Another option is to brew up the kelp and alfalfa meal in a tea along with some worm castings & molasses but this will provide very meager amounts of NPK although once soluble it should be available to the plants after a long bubble for say 36-48 hrs.
The best thing to do IMO is give your plants a liquid fish fertilizer because it is immediately available NPK. My plants love neptunes harvest brand and it gives the leaves a healthy shine. You can use it as is or add it into a tea. Doesn't smell very nice but use it as directed on the label & your plants should begin to get that nice deep green back in a couple weeks. Hope that helps good luck & happy growin
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
I would side with Richard you want something quick! Fish hydrolysate like he suggested would be solid, I also like Neptune's harvest and also the fish fertilizer from www.organicallydone.com

A tea with alfalfa, castings or compost, kelp, and molasses would be great too.

An all purpose bat Guano would work for you too!

I always start with what I have on hand but it's always nice to get your cupboards stocked as well!
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
There is no single 'water only' formula that suits every strain. Must know what you're dealing with before making the mix. Must make mental note how this run went down, and learn where to adjust, or it's a double fail if nothing is learned. ;)

Going from the list you provided up here, I would make the ladies a tea with a teaspoon per gallon of everything you listed except for the gypsum and the oyster shell, plus 2-3 tablespoons per gallon of WormCastings, and 2-3 tablespoons per gallon of compost and/or your soil mix from a healthy pot. plus a teaspoon per gallon ulsulfured molasses.
...and depending on the kind of guano you have, if it's good for the stage of growth you're in(lowN, High P), a teaspoon per gallon of that too. bubble for 24-36hrs(depending on temp, colder the brew the longer) and use it all up, dont save any. I would bubble this in the least amount of water possible for super dissolved oxygen in the brew, then cut this with more fresh water however much you need before watering the plants so it goes further and also make a fresh brew and feed it a few times until plants are where you want them. low dose more often aproach to bring soil health back up, rather than strong dose once then clean waters.
(Why 24hrs and not longer brew, we are not trying to establish fungal networks, we need the quick growing bacteria mid flower and beyond, and more time brewing will not make the ingredients we added create a much higher concentration after the first day, there is no point. Quick and dirty, and make new one next time same.)

I would also mix up a gallon of your original soil mix containing all the ingredients as you mixed it before(best is if you had some unused leftover to use), and dump a generous handful or two on that plant assuming there is good amount of compost in the mix, if not add extra worm castings.. and an extra tablespoon of high P guano in there(if you have it.) Better to mix up a little soil mix with what you want to top dress with and use that, then trying to spread teaspoons and/or tablespoons of individual ingredients on top.

I hope I have helped you with some ideas if nothing else. Good Growing.
 
kratos015

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Rasta Roy said:
I would side with Richard you want something quick! Fish hydrolysate like he suggested would be solid, I also like Neptune's harvest and also the fish fertilizer from www.organicallydone.com

A tea with alfalfa, castings or compost, kelp, and molasses would be great too.

An all purpose bat Guano would work for you too!

I always start with what I have on hand but it's always nice to get your cupboards stocked as well!
Click to expand...
x2 on the Fish Hydrolysate. You can get it in either a 5-1-1 NPK or 2-4-1 NPK, I like to have both around because when you grow a strain for the first time you really can't predict how it's going to act. Some will be heavier feeders than others, as you're noticing here.

What I'd recommend for the future is make sure you top dress once a month like clockwork, once you start getting more experience as to what certain strains need in terms of food you can increase or decrease the frequency of top dresses however every 4 weeks is a good rule of thumb. I had this problem too, I'm in the middle of my first grow using CO2 and I way underestimated the amount of nutes the girls went through with it. I should have top dressed way more often and went heavier on the amendments to compensate for the fact I'm using CO2, however since I didn't do that I had to grab myself some Fish Hydrolysate to fill in the gaps until my top dress of Crab Meal decomposes enough.

Happy growing!
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
kratos015 said:
x2 on the Fish Hydrolysate. You can get it in either a 5-1-1 NPK or 2-4-1 NPK, I like to have both around because when you grow a strain for the first time you really can't predict how it's going to act. Some will be heavier feeders than others, as you're noticing here.

What I'd recommend for the future is make sure you top dress once a month like clockwork, once you start getting more experience as to what certain strains need in terms of food you can increase or decrease the frequency of top dresses however every 4 weeks is a good rule of thumb. I had this problem too, I'm in the middle of my first grow using CO2 and I way underestimated the amount of nutes the girls went through with it. I should have top dressed way more often and went heavier on the amendments to compensate for the fact I'm using CO2, however since I didn't do that I had to grab myself some Fish Hydrolysate to fill in the gaps until my top dress of Crab Meal decomposes enough.

Happy growing!
Click to expand...
5-1-1 fish fertilizer is fish emulsion friend! It is made with byproducts of the fish oil industry with a heated process. It has lots of nitrogen, and some amino acids. Fish hydrolysate is made by a cold process so that the fertilizer retains more of the nutrients, hormones, amino acids, and the like. Thus the more balanced NPK.
 
kratos015

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Rasta Roy said:
5-1-1 fish fertilizer is fish emulsion friend! It is made with byproducts of the fish oil industry with a heated process. It has lots of nitrogen, and some amino acids. Fish hydrolysate is made by a cold process so that the fertilizer retains more of the nutrients, hormones, amino acids, and the like. Thus the more balanced NPK.
Click to expand...
Oh my goodness you're right! My apologies for the ignorant response! But fish emulsion is still good stuff to use isn't it? Just not as good as hydrolysate because it isn't stripped of all the other goodies yes? It's been my go to for a nitrogen boost for a while but I want to be sure it isn't bad in any way. I'm pretty sure it's not that it's bad, just that it's not as good as the hydrolysate right?
 
Johnei

Johnei

Well-Known Member
Random info I found on the net that describes the differences the best I could find for our learning purposes right now:

For an Emulsion, you take the fish and cook, boil and render them under extreme heat, and then the beneficial oils are removed and sold into the Health Food / Vitamin Market where you have certainly seen Fish Oil Vitamins, etc…in the grocery or health food store. Then, believe it or not, the actual fish meal and all the proteins and nutrients that it provides are stripped out and sold into the pet food and livestock food markets. Only then is the stick-water with the few nutrients remaining processed into the product known as Fish Emulsion, which is often smelly and frequently clogs application equipment, and is generally difficult to work with. In contrast, the High Quality Fish Hydrolysate Fertilizer is quite simply, 100% all natural liquefied fish, with none of the beneficial oils and proteins removed. Fish are Cold-Processed through a natural enzymatic liquefaction process and then the liquid fish is packaged and sold. The hydrolysate retains all of the beneficial oils and protein nitrogen and has a fresh fish scent.
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
kratos015 said:
Oh my goodness you're right! My apologies for the ignorant response! But fish emulsion is still good stuff to use isn't it? Just not as good as hydrolysate because it isn't stripped of all the other goodies yes? It's been my go to for a nitrogen boost for a while but I want to be sure it isn't bad in any way. I'm pretty sure it's not that it's bad, just that it's not as good as the hydrolysate right?
Click to expand...
Oh yeah still a great instant nitrogen source! Super affordable too compared to a lot of other bottled options. Most garden centers and hardware stores will carry it for 7 or 8 bucks. Just not as many of the other benefits. Hydrolysate can make a great all purpose liquid fert from start to finish if you're container gardening. You just gotta add a touch of gypsum into the soil and throw some Epsom salts in when you water every once and a while. I've grown a couple fire new York diesels this way before. And some killer tasty tomatoes as well!
 
natureboygrower

natureboygrower

Well-Known Member
Rasta Roy said:
I would side with Richard you want something quick! Fish hydrolysate like he suggested would be solid, I also like Neptune's harvest and also the fish fertilizer from www.organicallydone.com

A tea with alfalfa, castings or compost, kelp, and molasses would be great too.

An all purpose bat Guano would work for you too!

I always start with what I have on hand but it's always nice to get your cupboards stocked as well!
Click to expand...
hey rasta,i like to just add my kelp,fish,alfafa all into my ewc tea(as well as some bat guano(high N type) during veg.i follow the bottle for amounts basically for the fish,do this for the liquid kelp as well? ive used dry kelp but i feel im not too accurate with the amounts.whats better,and is there an amount i should be going with for the dry? i usually brew 10 gallons a clip
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
natureboygrower said:
hey rasta,i like to just add my kelp,fish,alfafa all into my ewc tea(as well as some bat guano(high N type) during veg.i follow the bottle for amounts basically for the fish,do this for the liquid kelp as well? ive used dry kelp but i feel im not too accurate with the amounts.whats better,and is there an amount i should be going with for the dry? i usually brew 10 gallons a clip
Click to expand...
Yeah, liquid kelp is pretty harmless, you could probably triple the recommended ratio and still not burn your plants. I prefer dry kelp because it has more benefits and way more bang for your buck. If you have a gallon of liquid kelp fertilizer, it probably has a cup of kelp in it, and cost you more than a five pound box of kelp meal.

If I was making a ten gallon tea with those ingredients I would do;

1 cup of alfalfa meal
1/2 cup of liquid fish feet
I would do 1/2 cup of dry kelp or 1 cup of liquid
4 cups of ewc
1/4 cup of bat Guano if not diluting tea after brewing, 1/2 cup if you are
1/2 cup of molasses or whatever your simple sugar source
 
natureboygrower

natureboygrower

Well-Known Member
Rasta Roy said:
Yeah, liquid kelp is pretty harmless, you could probably triple the recommended ratio and still not burn your plants. I prefer dry kelp because it has more benefits and way more bang for your buck. If you have a gallon of liquid kelp fertilizer, it probably has a cup of kelp in it, and cost you more than a five pound box of kelp meal.

If I was making a ten gallon tea with those ingredients I would do;

1 cup of alfalfa meal
1/2 cup of liquid fish feet
I would do 1/2 cup of dry kelp or 1 cup of liquid
4 cups of ewc
1/4 cup of bat Guano if not diluting tea after brewing, 1/2 cup if you are
1/2 cup of molasses or whatever your simple sugar source
Click to expand...
right on,brother,thank you.i love doing teas but there is so much info out there,sometimes its hard to cull good info out from bad.would you follow this recipe except swap the veg guano for a flowering during budding? i just scratched some ewc and steamed bone meal into some plants just starting to flower.i saw you recommend that to another member,i was disappointed i couldnt find fish bone meal,i like the sounds of that stuff better.thoughts on sst? i really like the idea behind triggering hormones in plants,but how feasible is it doing these teas(volume wise) for an outdoor grow?
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
natureboygrower said:
right on,brother,thank you.i love doing teas but there is so much info out there,sometimes its hard to cull good info out from bad.would you follow this recipe except swap the veg guano for a flowering during budding? i just scratched some ewc and steamed bone meal into some plants just starting to flower.i saw you recommend that to another member,i was disappointed i couldnt find fish bone meal,i like the sounds of that stuff better.thoughts on sst? i really like the idea behind triggering hormones in plants,but how feasible is it doing these teas(volume wise) for an outdoor grow?
Click to expand...
Yeah there is indeed a lot of info out there! And unfortunately a lot of people are overcomplicating the process.

I prefer the funk and taste I get from fish bone meal, but bone meal provides the same quick activating long term release of calcium and phosphorus. I've grown with both and it all sells the same with no complaints!

If you're mixing it into your soil shortly before you switch to flower you really don't need to add a high p guano into your teas, unless you're growing in small containers. But yes you could swap out if you so desired!

I think SST's are fun for smaller scale grows but if you are growing on a larger scale I personally prefer the use of malted barley for enzymes. You can simply top dress a half cup per plant and let the magic happen.
 
natureboygrower

natureboygrower

Well-Known Member
Rasta Roy said:
Yeah there is indeed a lot of info out there! And unfortunately a lot of people are overcomplicating the process.

I prefer the funk and taste I get from fish bone meal, but bone meal provides the same quick activating long term release of calcium and phosphorus. I've grown with both and it all sells the same with no complaints!

If you're mixing it into your soil shortly before you switch to flower you really don't need to add a high p guano into your teas, unless you're growing in small containers. But yes you could swap out if you so desired!

I think SST's are fun for smaller scale grows but if you are growing on a larger scale I personally prefer the use of malted barley for enzymes. You can simply top dress a half cup per plant and let the magic happen.
Click to expand...
cool,like distillers malted barley?
 
WeedFreak78

WeedFreak78

Well-Known Member
Assuming its an N issue, Alaska 5-1-1 anytime up to week 7 of flower for a quick N boost. I've reversed premature yellowing with it if its caught early enough. Let it go too long and you'll start dropping leaves and it'll be harder to recover.
 
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