What Happened by Hillary Rodham Clinton

st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
tampee said:
You can't be Agnostic and a Jew anyone can become a Jew just by praying to the right book. If you question your faith you are not a Jew.
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It's an interesting position for sure. Being Jewish, in the true sense of the faith, would require belief in their god. An agnostic claims no faith nor disbelief in a god, so it's kind of contradictory, but not totally. Now, if he claimed to be an atheist Jew then that could be called out for sure.

Being Jewish (or any faith for that matter) is mostly about a belief in a deity, but there are other traditions and customs that define the religion as well. Jews have some pretty interesting customs that I'm assuming he partakes in.

My business partners are Jewish, so I've learned quite a bit about their faith. I really do hate the days where I'm the only one in the office though!
 
tampee

tampee

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
It's an interesting position for sure. Being Jewish, in the true sense of the faith, would require belief in their god. An agnostic claims no faith nor disbelief in a god, so it's kind of contradictory, but not totally. Now, if he claimed to be an atheist Jew then that could be called out for sure.

Being Jewish (or any faith for that matter) is mostly about a belief in a deity, but there are other traditions and customs that define the religion as well. Jews have some pretty interesting customs that I'm assuming he partakes in.

My business partners are Jewish, so I've learned quite a bit about their faith. I really do hate the days where I'm the only one in the office though!
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That's actually exactly what he claimed to be an Agnostic Jew. Lol, Sure he might have a Jewish parent but like me being raised Christian I'm no longer Christian because I can't find proof of Jesus and science says no slaves were held in Egypt during the pyramids. I do believe in something but I've read into so many religions I honestly can't choose.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
It's an interesting position for sure. Being Jewish, in the true sense of the faith, would require belief in their god. An agnostic claims no faith nor disbelief in a god, so it's kind of contradictory, but not totally. Now, if he claimed to be an atheist Jew then that could be called out for sure.

Being Jewish (or any faith for that matter) is mostly about a belief in a deity, but there are other traditions and customs that define the religion as well. Jews have some pretty interesting customs that I'm assuming he partakes in.

My business partners are Jewish, so I've learned quite a bit about their faith. I really do hate the days where I'm the only one in the office though!
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why do you think an agnostic cannot be jewish? does my epistemological position on a deity have any affect on leading a seder?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
kelly4 said:
Just cuz someone has a Jewish wife and considers himself Jewish doesn't make him a Jew.
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Fogdog said:
Is "Jewish" a race? Only something that can be genetically inherited?
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abandonconflict said:
No. There are ethnic groups that have been categorized as races which were thought to be almost entirely Jewish and there are people of "Jewish descent" (defined by nazis as a set of parameters regarding how many grandparents practiced) who do not practice.

In the US it became prevalent to ask people what their mother's maiden name was as a way to identify if they were Jewish but that information is rather esoteric and over time the question has become a security option. In nazi Germany, a lot of effort was put into deciding who was and who was not Jewish, and I don't even feel like getting into that.

In Spain, the inquisition forced a lot of Jews to convert to Christendom but very little if any attention was ever paid to descent. It was simply forbidden to practice a religion that rejected Jesus Christ. However, those families who feigned conversion but secretly practiced, maintained records of lineage and were known as Marrano. This was a slur but became an accepted identification that we claimed in defiance of those who would use it on us.

The Ashkenazim are an ethnic group with many distinctive genetic markers who have been found to have inhabited Lithuania for centuries but there are many overlaps with Greek genetic markers. The point is, it is very obvious that people have converted to Judaism for centuries and then maintained records of bloodlines. It did not begin as a race. One does not have to be born a Jew to be a Jew.
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The insanity resulting from attempting to reconcile Antisemitism with Christianity was especially evident in Nazi attempt at establishing their own religion because, in their own weird set of parameters, Jesus was a Jew and they couldn't deal with that, so, the ginned up a fake Aryan mythology and established a religion around it.

Same goes with Antisemitic Moslems. It's completely reasonable and understandable that Palestinians would have a problem with Zionism. But to be Antisemitc while recognizing Jesus as a prophet borders on the same fake religious beliefs of the Nazis.

I was asking that question to help me understand what @kelly4 thought about it. Pretty much obvious to me that there isn't any major religious group who are solely members of one racial group. But that's the implication I read in Kelly's post.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
It's an interesting position for sure. Being Jewish, in the true sense of the faith, would require belief in their god. An agnostic claims no faith nor disbelief in a god, so it's kind of contradictory, but not totally. Now, if he claimed to be an atheist Jew then that could be called out for sure.

Being Jewish (or any faith for that matter) is mostly about a belief in a deity, but there are other traditions and customs that define the religion as well. Jews have some pretty interesting customs that I'm assuming he partakes in.

My business partners are Jewish, so I've learned quite a bit about their faith. I really do hate the days where I'm the only one in the office though!
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LOL

"I don't know much but I think maybe some blacks didn't vote for Bernie because he is Jewish. I also think that a person has to believe in a god to be Jewish."

You certainly don't know much. Or thought about this very much. But you do get long winded when saying what you don't know.

Along with tax policy (@Padawanbater2 ), this is complicated.

Here is what some people who have thought about it say:
https://www.momentmag.com/can-there-be-judaism-without-belief-in-god/

A pithy (but to me obnoxious quote) from the article:

The contradictions might seem glaring, but centuries of Jewish history since the Haskalah, the Jewish Enlightenment, have proved that Jews are too strong for narrowly defined contradictions. One of the most important responsibilities a person has is to carefully and conscientiously examine her beliefs. She has a moral responsibility to not simply inherit her beliefs, accepting them as she does her name, to not assert propositions about the world just because of the group that she was born into. If an open-minded look at the world makes her conclude that this is a godless universe, does she have to renounce the culture she grew up with, that has done so much to develop a moral outlook and human values? The answer, for me and many others, is no.

I'm atheist but observe and participate in judeo-christian culture and values. I find it quite logical to do so. Mainly because that's the culture I live in and I understand that a society where, for example, murder is common and accepted would necessarily be a small one. It couldn't compete with a culture that is resolved to cooperate rather than eliminate those who disagree. Same goes with religion-based human sacrifice. I see religion as a means to communicate acceptable behavior and enabled societies to evolve in a darwinian sense. Judeo-Christian values have created societies that are more effective at competing and growing than many others from the past, such as the religions prevalent at the time of Jesus's birth. I also think that other religions such as Buddhism, Islam, and a handful of others are behind the growth and prosperity of it's people.

To reject the existence of a god doesn't mean I reject the culture and values based upon Christianity. I wish more Christians observed more of their own values. They have this tendency to pick and choose which parts of Christianity to follow. Beginning with the modern Christian who also opposes helping refugees from a war we helped start.

Lieberman said he doesn't think Judaism would continue if Jews no longer believed in a god. I'm not so certain of this but it would create a paradox that less thoughtful people might become fixated upon.
 
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