When Does Life Begin ...
- Thread starter ViRedd
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chuckbane
New Member
who here will argue my FREEDOM TO CHOOSE to smoke pot?
The majority has been brainwashed by the media to think its bad, so guess what, you can't legally grow or smoke it unless you are a med user.
Just like religion (what amercia was founded on) brainwashed us to think abortion is wrong. If Christianity hadnt TOLD us abortion was wrong for the past couple thou years we would never have this problem today.
I'm trying to fix the mistakes that "God" has created and clean up "His" mess. Dont stand in my way!
religion never gave anyone the freedom to choose. It was their way or eternal damnation.
Sounds like i mighty THREAT to me
The majority has been brainwashed by the media to think its bad, so guess what, you can't legally grow or smoke it unless you are a med user.
Just like religion (what amercia was founded on) brainwashed us to think abortion is wrong. If Christianity hadnt TOLD us abortion was wrong for the past couple thou years we would never have this problem today.
I'm trying to fix the mistakes that "God" has created and clean up "His" mess. Dont stand in my way!
religion never gave anyone the freedom to choose. It was their way or eternal damnation.
Sounds like i mighty THREAT to me
ccodiane
New Member
This guy didn't.....scroll to the bottom to see what choice looked like before Roe v. Wade
http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Roe/Rehnquist.asp
MR. JUSTICE REHNQUIST, dissenting.
Roe v. Wade MR. JUSTICE BLACKMUN delivered the opinion of the Court.
MR. JUSTICE STEWART, concurring.
MR. JUSTICE REHNQUIST, dissenting.
The Court's opinion brings to the decision of this troubling question both extensive historical fact and a wealth of legal scholarship. While the opinion thus commands my respect, I find myself nonetheless in fundamental disagreement with those parts of it that invalidate the Texas statute in question, and therefore dissent.
I
The Court's opinion decides that a State may impose virtually no restriction on the performance of abortions during the first trimester of pregnancy. Our previous decisions indicate that a necessary predicate for such an opinion is a plaintiff who was in her first trimester of pregnancy at some time during the pendency of her lawsuit. While a party may vindicate his own constitutional rights, he may not seek vindication for the rights of others. Moose Lodge v. Irvis, 407 U.S. 163 (1972); Sierra Club v. Morton, 405 U.S. 727 (1972). The Court's statement of facts in this case makes clear, however, that the record in no way indicates the presence of such a plaintiff. We know only that plaintiff Roe at the time of filing her complaint was a pregnant woman; for aught that appears in this record, she may have been in her last trimester of pregnancy as of the date the complaint was filed.
Nothing in the Court's opinion indicates that Texas might not constitutionally apply its proscription of abortion as written to a woman in that stage of pregnancy. Nonetheless, the Court uses her complaint against the Texas statute as a fulcrum for deciding that States may impose virtually no restrictions on medical abortions performed during the first trimester of pregnancy. In deciding such a hypothetical lawsuit, the Court departs from the longstanding admonition that it should never "formulate a rule of constitutional law broader than is required by the precise facts to which it is to be applied." Liverpool, New York & Philadelphia S. S. Co. v. Commissioners of Emigration, 113 U.S. 33, 39 (1885). See also Ashwander v. TVA, 297 U.S. 288, 345 (1936) (Brandeis, J., concurring).
II
Even if there were a plaintiff in this case capable of litigating the issue which the Court decides, I would reach a conclusion opposite to that reached by the Court. I have difficulty in concluding, as the Court does, that the right of "privacy" is involved in this case. Texas, by the statute here challenged, bars the performance of a medical abortion by a licensed physician on a plaintiff such as Roe. A transaction resulting in an operation such as this is not "private" in the ordinary usage of that word. Nor is the "privacy" that the Court finds here even a distant relative of the freedom from searches and seizures protected by the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, which the Court has referred to as embodying a right to privacy. Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967).
If the Court means by the term "privacy" no more than that the claim of a person to be free from unwanted state regulation of consensual transactions may be a form of "liberty" protected by the Fourteenth Amendment, there is no doubt that similar claims have been upheld in our earlier decisions on the basis of that liberty. I agree with the statement of MR. JUSTICE STEWART in his concurring opinion that the "liberty," against deprivation of which without due process the Fourteenth Amendment protects, embraces more than the rights found in the Bill of Rights. But that liberty is not guaranteed absolutely against deprivation, only against deprivation without due process of law. The test traditionally applied in the area of social and economic legislation is whether or not a law such as that challenged has a rational relation to a valid state objective. Williamson v. Lee Optical Co., 348 U.S. 483, 491 (1955). The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment undoubtedly does place a limit, albeit a broad one, on legislative power to enact laws such as this. If the Texas statute were to prohibit an abortion even where the mother's life is in jeopardy, I have little doubt that such a statute would lack a rational relation to a valid state objective under the test stated in Williamson, supra. But the Court's sweeping invalidation of any restrictions on abortion during the first trimester is impossible to justify under that standard, and the conscious weighing of competing factors that the Court's opinion apparently substitutes for the established test is far more appropriate to a legislative judgment than to a judicial one.
The Court eschews the history of the Fourteenth Amendment in its reliance on the "compelling state interest" test. See Weber v. Aetna Casualty & Surety Co., 406 U.S. 164, 179 (1972) (dissenting opinion). But the Court adds a new wrinkle to this test by transposing it from the legal considerations associated with the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to this case arising under the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Unless I misapprehend the consequences of this transplanting of the "compelling state interest test," the Court's opinion will accomplish the seemingly impossible feat of leaving this area of the law more confused than it found it.
While the Court's opinion quotes from the dissent of Mr. Justice Holmes in Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45, 74 (1905), the result it reaches is more closely attuned to the majority opinion of Mr. Justice Peckham in that case. As in Lochner and similar cases applying substantive due process standards to economic and social welfare legislation, the adoption of the compelling state interest standard will inevitably require this Court to examine the legislative policies and pass on the wisdom of these policies in the very process of deciding whether a particular state interest put forward may or may not be "compelling." The decision here to break pregnancy into three distinct terms and to outline the permissible restrictions the State may impose in each one, for example, partakes more of judicial legislation than it does of a determination of the intent of the drafters of the Fourteenth Amendment.
The fact that a majority of the States reflecting, after all, the majority sentiment in those States, have had restrictions on abortions for at least a century is a strong indication, it seems to me, that the asserted right to an abortion is not "so rooted in the traditions and conscience of our people as to be ranked as fundamental," Snyder v. Massachusetts, 291 U.S. 97, 105 (1934). Even today, when society's views on abortion are changing, the very existence of the debate is evidence that the "right" to an abortion is not so universally accepted as the appellant would have us believe.
To reach its result, the Court necessarily has had to find within the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment a right that was apparently completely unknown to the drafters of the Amendment. As early as 1821, the first state law dealing directly with abortion was enacted by the Connecticut Legislature. Conn. Stat., Tit. 20, §§ 14, 16. By the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868, there were at least 36 laws enacted by state or territorial legislatures limiting abortion. 1 While many States have amended or updated their laws, 21 of the laws on the books in 1868 remain in effect today. 2 Indeed, the Texas statute struck down today was, as the majority notes, first enacted in 1857 and "has remained substantially unchanged to the present time." Ante, at 119.
There apparently was no question concerning the validity of this provision or of any of the other state statutes when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted. The only conclusion possible from this history is that the drafters did not intend to have the Fourteenth Amendment withdraw from the States the power to legislate with respect to this matter.
III
Even if one were to agree that the case that the Court decides were here, and that the enunciation of the substantive constitutional law in the Court's opinion were proper, the actual disposition of the case by the Court is still difficult to justify. The Texas statute is struck down in toto, even though the Court apparently concedes that at later periods of pregnancy Texas might impose these selfsame statutory limitations on abortion. My understanding of past practice is that a statute found to be invalid as applied to a particular plaintiff, but not unconstitutional as a whole, is not simply "struck down" but is, instead, declared unconstitutional as applied to the fact situation before the Court. Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356 (1886); Street v. New York, 394 U.S. 576 (1969).
For all of the foregoing reasons, I respectfully dissent.
---- Begin EndNotes ----
1 Jurisdictions having enacted abortion laws prior to the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868:
1. Alabama -- Ala. Acts, c. 6, § 2 (1840).
2. Arizona -- Howell Code, c. 10, § 45 (1865).
3. Arkansas -- Ark. Rev. Stat., c. 44, div. III, Art. II, § 6 (183
. 4. California -- Cal. Sess. Laws, c. 99, § 45, p. 233 (1849-1850).
5. Colorado (Terr.) -- Colo. Gen. Laws of Terr. of Colo., 1st Sess., § 42, pp. 296-297 (1861).
6. Connecticut -- Conn. Stat., Tit. 20, §§ 14, 16 (1821). By 1868, this statute had been replaced by another abortion law. Conn. Pub. Acts, c. 71, §§ 1, 2, p. 65 (1860).
7. Florida -- Fla. Acts 1st Sess., c. 1637, subc. 3, §§ 10, 11, subc. 8, §§ 9, 10, 11 (186
, as amended, now Fla. Stat. Ann. §§ 782.09, 782.10, 797.01, 797.02, 782.16 (1965). 8. Georgia -- Ga. Pen. Code, 4th Div., § 20 (1833).
9. Kingdom of Hawaii -- Hawaii Pen. Code, c. 12, §§ 1, 2, 3 (1850).
10. Idaho (Terr.) -- Idaho (Terr.) Laws, Crimes and Punishments §§ 33, 34, 42, pp. 441, 443 (1863).
11. Illinois -- Ill. Rev. Criminal Code §§ 40, 41, 46, pp. 130, 131 (1827). By 1868, this statute had been replaced by a subsequent enactment. Ill. Pub. Laws §§ 1, 2, 3, p. 89 (1867).
12. Indiana -- Ind. Rev. Stat. §§ 1, 3, p. 224 (183
. By 1868 this statute had been superseded by a subsequent enactment. Ind. Laws, c. LXXXI, § 2 (1859). 13. Iowa (Terr.) -- Iowa (Terr.) Stat., 1st Legis., 1st Sess., § 18, p. 145 (183
. By 1868, this statute had been superseded by a subsequent enactment. Iowa (Terr.) Rev. Stat., c. 49, §§ 10, 13 (1843). 14. Kansas (Terr.) -- Kan. (Terr.) Stat., c. 48, §§ 9, 10, 39 (1855). By 1868, this statute had been superseded by a subsequent enactment. Kan. (Terr.) Laws, c. 28, §§ 9, 10, 37 (1859).
15. Louisiana -- La. Rev. Stat., Crimes and Offenses § 24, p. 138 (1856).
16. Maine -- Me. Rev. Stat., c. 160, §§ 11, 12, 13, 14 (1840).
17. Maryland -- Md. Laws, c. 179, § 2, p. 315 (186
. 18. Massachusetts -- Mass. Acts & Resolves, c. 27 (1845).
19. Michigan -- Mich. Rev. Stat., c. 153, §§ 32, 33, 34, p. 662 (1846).
20. Minnesota (Terr.) -- Minn. (Terr.) Rev. Stat., c. 100, §§ 10, 11, p. 493 (1851).
21. Mississippi -- Miss. Code, c. 64, §§ 8, 9, p. 958 (184
. 22. Missouri -- Mo. Rev. Stat., Art. II, §§ 9, 10, 36, pp. 168, 172 (1835).
23. Montana (Terr.) -- Mont. (Terr.) Laws, Criminal Practice Acts § 41, p. 184 (1864).
24. Nevada (Terr.) -- Nev. (Terr.) Laws, c. 28, § 42, p. 63 (1861).
25. New Hampshire -- N. H. Laws, c. 743, § 1, p. 708 (184
. 26. New Jersey -- N. J. Laws, p. 266 (1849).
27. New York -- N. Y. Rev. Stat., pt. 4, c. 1, Tit. 2, §§ 8, 9, pp. 12-13 (182
. By 1868, this statute had been superseded. N. Y. Laws, c. 260, §§ 1-6, pp. 285-286 (1845); N. Y. Laws, c. 22, § 1, p. 19 (1846). 28. Ohio -- Ohio Gen. Stat. §§ 111 (1), 112 (2), p. 252 (1841).
29. Oregon -- Ore. Gen. Laws, Crim. Code, c. 43, § 509, p. 528 (1845-1864).
30. Pennsylvania -- Pa. Laws No. 374, §§ 87, 88, 89 (1860).
31. Texas -- Tex. Gen. Stat. Dig., c. VII, Arts. 531-536, p. 524 (Oldham & White 1859).
32. Vermont -- Vt. Acts No. 33, § 1 (1846). By 1868, this statute had been amended. Vt. Acts No. 57, §§ 1, 3 (1867).
33. Virginia -- Va. Acts, Tit. II, c. 3, § 9, p. 96 (184
. 34. Washington (Terr.) -- Wash. (Terr.) Stats., c. II, §§ 37, 38, p. 81 (1854).
35. West Virginia -- See Va. Acts., Tit. II, c. 3, § 9, p. 96 (184
; W. Va. Const., Art. XI, par. 8 (1863). 36. Wisconsin -- Wis. Rev. Stat., c. 133, §§ 10, 11 (1849). By 1868, this statute had been superseded. Wis. Rev. Stat., c. 164, §§ 10, 11; c. 169, §§ 58, 59 (185
. 2 Abortion laws in effect in 1868 and still applicable as of August 1970: 1. Arizona (1865).
2. Connecticut (1860).
3. Florida (186
. 4. Idaho (1863).
5. Indiana (183
. 6. Iowa (1843).
7. Maine (1840).
8. Massachusetts (1845).
9. Michigan (1846).
10. Minnesota (1851).
11. Missouri (1835).
12. Montana (1864).
13. Nevada (1861).
14. New Hampshire (184
. 15. New Jersey (1849).
16. Ohio (1841).
17. Pennsylvania (1860).
18. Texas (1859).
19. Vermont (1867).
20. West Virginia (1863).
21. Wisconsin (185
.
ccodiane
New Member
Excerpt for the dolts...........
"The fact that a majority of the States reflecting, after all, the majority sentiment in those States, have had restrictions on abortions for at least a century is a strong indication, it seems to me, that the asserted right to an abortion is not "so rooted in the traditions and conscience of our people as to be ranked as fundamental," Snyder v. Massachusetts, 291 U.S. 97, 105 (1934). Even today, when society's views on abortion are changing, the very existence of the debate is evidence that the "right" to an abortion is not so universally accepted as the appellant would have us believe.
To reach its result, the Court necessarily has had to find within the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment a right that was apparently completely unknown to the drafters of the Amendment. As early as 1821, the first state law dealing directly with abortion was enacted by the Connecticut Legislature. Conn. Stat., Tit. 20, §§ 14, 16. By the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868, there were at least 36 laws enacted by state or territorial legislatures limiting abortion. 1 While many States have amended or updated their laws, 21 of the laws on the books in 1868 remain in effect today. 2 Indeed, the Texas statute struck down today was, as the majority notes, first enacted in 1857 and "has remained substantially unchanged to the present time." Ante, at 119."
ccodiane
New Member
From who, and, in what?
chuckbane
New Member
you use these quotes because people are automatically supposed to think that they are right because they are in publish for the public. therefore there is no way to argue it. It is another one of the dirty tricks that people like you are constantly using.
USE YOUR OWN HEAD CCODIANE
I KNOW YOU ARE CAPABLE OF FIGURING OUT THE TRUTH AND THE MEANING OF LIFE AND THE BEST WAY TO LIVE AND ALL THAT JAZZ.
USE YOUR OWN HEAD CCODIANE
I KNOW YOU ARE CAPABLE OF FIGURING OUT THE TRUTH AND THE MEANING OF LIFE AND THE BEST WAY TO LIVE AND ALL THAT JAZZ.
ccodiane
New Member
Answer- Justice Rehnquist, dissenting, Roe v. Wade
(What the hell are we talking about anyway?)
chuckbane
New Member
good question.
you are the one who came one here after all that needed to be said was said,, so i should be asking you
ccodiane
New Member
Who (you) made you (Marxist) the arbiter?
ccodiane
New Member
You said the "T" word! INOB! Sick 'em!
chuckbane
New Member
I did
Unfortunately most people with my views are too weak to stand up and take control.
I took on 5 of you pro-lifers over the past 10 pages or so and never gave up. I argued every point with my own reasoning and got no intellectual retort. You are now trying but its still the same bullshit.
I took on a lot of people with absolutlely no one backing me up.
This has turned me into a raging bull picking off anyone who stands in my way.
I have to be like this to make up for how weak most people with my views are. And they know they dont need to come with the bull,
because i say everything they would say to the max, and unlike your type i dont use other peoples arguments as my own, and repeat the same useless and visibly flawed argument that is posed over and over again.
This debate is over because none of you pro-lifers answered any of my questions and you did not properly debate any point i had made for the side of pro-choice
GET IT?
ccodiane
New Member
chuckbane
New Member
goody,
back to the unintelligent posts, i can ignore you again
you were starting to scare me for a second there CC
ccodiane
New Member
Your wax starting to melt, my precious?
chuckbane
New Member
nope
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
ccodiane
New Member
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