4x8 geo planter... No till or ROLS?

Thai_Lights

Well-Known Member
Hey guys just received my 4x8 geo planter. I'm doing 1/3 peat 1/3 aeration and 1/3 fish compost. To amend I'm using bio live from down to earth natural at 1/2 cup per cu ft. My question is; after I harvest should I re amend and recycle the soil or do a no till? Pros and cons of each?
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
no till is rols. just topdress every other round amd use half as much amendments as you did in the original soil mix.
top with em1 bokashi or gro kashi and castings each round.

The only reason to dump soil and reamend and cook again is if you're changing pot size or to sips
 
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kratos015

Well-Known Member
no till is rols. just topdress every other round amd use half as much amendments as you did in the original soil mix.
top with em1 bokashi or gro kashi and castings each round.

The only reason to dump soil and reamend and cook again is if you're changing pot size or to sips
Pretty much this. I personally started with 25g pots and the intention of running no-till pots, however my situation changed and I had to start over with 24 3g pots instead of 6 25g pots. Both no-till and ROLS have their own respective pros and cons, allow me to go into them in hopes that it will make it easier for you to choose what method is best for you and your situation. Just try to keep in mind, what is 100% optimal for one growers situation is not necessarily what will be 100% optimal for another grower. It all depends on your particular situation in the end. Forgive me in advance, because this is going to be a wall of text for sure.. however it will for sure help you make the right decision for your own situation. I had to divide this into two posts, there's a tl;dr at the bottom of my second post if you're interested :p

The things that are nice about ROLS is that you can take just about any crappy soil and turn it into something incredible. Get yourself a compost pile and/or worm bin going as well of a source of drainage/aeration and mix it with pretty much whatever soil you have lying around. Toss in your favored/local amendments and keep it moist and aerated like a compost pile and you'll have a brand spanking new living soil that's ready to rock and roll. ROLS is also nice because there can be quite a bit of quirks in a no-till bed that can be an absolute pain in the ass to deal with at first. Since you are always dumping the soil and re-amending it at the end of every harvest, you won't necessarily deal with issues such as soil compaction, a more complex watering routine, and taking the rate of decomposition into account. ROLS is a lot more simple and isn't just a great introduction into living organics, but remains tried and true. If you're new to organic growing I highly recommend the ROLS method as there is a lot less that needs to be troubleshooted in a ROLS grow than no-till.

The main cons associated with ROLS aren't really anything bad perse, its just that you won't get the benefits of a no-till bed. ROLS is typically done in 3-10g pots, although people do use larger pots on occasion, most ROLS grows I've come across and done myself usually consist of 3-10g pots. Because you're constantly recycling the soil after every harvest, that means your microbiology will only have the 3-4 months of the plants life cycle to develop itself. Think of your microbiology as a spider web, if you leave the web alone it will develop into something massive, however in ROLS we're essentially destroying the web that took 3-4 months to construct. A ROLS soil will definitely kick ass and take names, but it won't have near the amount of diversity that a no-till bed is capable of having. For one, there are certain microbes that can only live 12 inches below the soils surface. So unless you're in a pot or raised bed that is a minimum of 1ft tall you'll be missing out on some microbes. The other thing about ROLS is that it will provide you with the same results where as a no-till bed has the power to increase yields, flavor, and even potency over time.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
No-till is essentially a ROLS soil, you just re-amend it instead of recycle it. The soil gets "recycled" by adding more organic nutrients into the mix and allowing it to sit until the microbiology develops. However, with a no-till bed we take care of things by simply top dressing the no-till beds with the same organic amendments we used when we first re-amended the soil. Like me for example; I only use kelp/crab/neem meal for my amendments. When I make a new soil, I amend it with 1/2 cup of all 3 amendments. However when I top dress, I use around 1/4 cup of each instead and then cover that with some compost or EWC.. depends on what I have available. So no-till pretty much is ROLS, we just don't dump the pots at harvest is all, simply top dressing it with the same amendments and some compost will constantly keep your microbes happy. The other thing that's nice about no-till is they are typically done in large containers and as I pointed out above, you'll have a much more diverse population of microbes in a no-till than you ever could in a ROLS grow. There have been studies shown that demonstrate that there are actually specific species of bacteria in a living soil that are responsible for developing terpenes in it's host plant which could explain why people experience exponentially better results in no-till beds depending on how old the soil web is. Think of your microbiology as a city. In ROLS, this city only has 3-4 months to develop until it gets destroyed and started from scratch. However in no-till, this city never stops developing until you dump it out and recycle it. The result is not just a more diverse population of microbes, but an infinitely more sturdy population as well. Eventually your no-till bed's population of microbes will get to a point that you experience explosive growth immediately upon transplant because your no-till bed is filled with an entire web of microbes just itching for a new host plant to achieve symbiosis with. As a result of these factors, you will experience better yields, potency, and even flavor because you have a massive amount of soil filled to the brim with little microbes waiting to attach themselves to another plant.

However, unlike ROLS there are quite a few cons associated with a no-till grow that make learning no-till quite the learning curve. I had the pleasure of figuring out a lot of these cons the hard way of course xD

The thing you have to consider about your no-till bed is the rate at which your medium decomposes. Take a 30g pot for example, it starts off with 10g of peat/perlite/compost each on average right? Well, within a few months (depending on the size of your pot) that 10g of peat will react with the organic amendments in the medium, as a result that 10g of peat will eventually become 10g of compost over time. While this sounds great in theory it actually causes a ridiculous amount of problems if you aren't careful. While compost has incredible water retention properties, it is absolute shit when it comes to drainage. Eventually that 30g pot will become 20g compost and 10g aeration/drainage, which means your no-till bed will not be draining properly. If your no-till bed isn't draining properly then there likely isn't much oxygen either, if any at all. So your no-till bed will then proceed to go anaerobic due to a lack of oxygen and on top of that, you put yourself at risk for root rot as well because the roots are constantly saturated in water. And if that wasn't enough, your pH will also be thrown out of whack because the medium is literally flooded with water.

I found this one out the hard way, and that's why I don't follow the 1:1:1 ratio of peat/compost/aeration anymore for no-till beds. If you follow that ratio, your bed will start to cause you more trouble than you thought possible because eventually that 1:1:1 ratio of peat/compost/aeration becomes a 2:1 ratio of compost/aeration making it incredibly difficult for the roots to move and breathe as well as creating an environment that only anaerobic bacteria can survive in. The other issue you'll run into with no-till beds is soil compaction, which is pretty much unavoidable no matter what you do. When you have such a large mass of soil you will always have soil compaction over time, there is literally nothing you can do to avoid soil compaction, all you can do is slow down the rate at which your soil compacts.. never stop it.

So because of the above issues with soil compaction as well as organic matter constantly decomposing, you actually don't want to follow the 1:1:1 ratio or you will experience these issues by your 2nd no-till cycle. To compensate for these issues, I've begun using 50% perlite, 30% peat, and 20% compost.. I'll likely end up switching to 50% perlite, 40% peat, and 10% compost. In ROLS, the reason you want the compost ratio to be equal to your peat/aeration is because you'll be recycling the mix again long before you run into any of these issues. For this reason, you want 33% compost in your mix because in the 3-4 months the mix is in pots it won't decompose fast enough to provide your plants with the amount of compost it needs. However, with no-till you'll be going for much longer than 3-4 months, as a result you want to account for the fact that your medium will decompose over time when you first create your no-till mix. I've started running 50% aeration/drainage for this exact reason, perlite doesn't decompose and you can run your no-till beds for a good 1-2 years before you have to recycle them. Your no-till bed will only need to be recycled once the 40% peat/10% compost decomposes to become 0% peat/50% compost. Eventually your no-till bed will decompose into nothing but perlite and compost, which requires you to empty the pots, mix everything with more peat moss and amendments, and start all over again.

Having 50% perlite in your mix will help to mitigate some of the effects of soil compaction, it will offer you plenty of drainage to compensate for your compost ratio increasing with every month that passes, and ensures that your bed will last as long as possible.

No-till beds require a lot more maintenance than ROLS itself too. With ROLS it's entirely possible to do nothing but water for the entire cycle and get excellent results because you won't have plants in the pots long enough for them to use all of the organic matter in your soil. However, with no-till beds eventually the microbes/roots will deplete your soil of any and all organic nutrients. For this reason, you'll need to top dress your bed every 3-6 weeks depending on how much or little your plants eat. You top dress with the same organic amendments you used when you first made the soil, then cover that top dress with a little compost or EWC and water it. This will need to be done every 3-6 weeks to ensure there are never any deficiencies.

If you have little to no experience with a living organic soil of any sort, I highly recommend starting with the ROLS method first until you get a better understanding of organics as a whole. It will be much easier on you and will be much less to focus on. Once you start experiencing success with the ROLS method then you can perhaps look into no-till, do a side by side for 6-12 months and see which one you prefer. I apologize for the lengthy reply and hope I was able to help, if you have any questions feel free to shoot them my way and I'll help to the best of my ability.

tl;dr

ROLS or no-till are both capable of amazing results. ROLS is vastly easier to manage by a long shot, however no-till will give you unique benefits that a ROLS grow can never possibly provide albeit at the cost of extra maintenance and a bigger learning curve.
 

Thai_Lights

Well-Known Member
Kratos, appreciate you taking the time to fill me in on no-till and rols. Lots of valuable information in there. I will probably go with ROLS like you said it will definitely be easier on me. I have a question regarding amending my soil. 4x8 holds 900L of soil. If i go 50% perlite 30% peat and 20% compost do I still calculate 1/2 cup per cu ft even with all that perlite? I was thinking about 15 cups of bio live for the 900L of soil.
 

Thai_Lights

Well-Known Member
No I am in Canada shipping anything from BAS costs an arm and a lsg. Got it from a company in Ontario I think for about $160 shipped. I was planning to do a layer of perlite at the bottom and the some style air pvc pipe with crimson clover for a living mulch.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Kratos, appreciate you taking the time to fill me in on no-till and rols. Lots of valuable information in there. I will probably go with ROLS like you said it will definitely be easier on me. I have a question regarding amending my soil. 4x8 holds 900L of soil. If i go 50% perlite 30% peat and 20% compost do I still calculate 1/2 cup per cu ft even with all that perlite? I was thinking about 15 cups of bio live for the 900L of soil.
Hey man, sorry it took so long to reply, I never got a notification that you replied to me. Glad to help though! And you're right about not needing to still calculate for 1/2 cup per cu.ft. with all that perlite, I used 1/4 cup per cu.ft. to account for all the extra perlite. From that point out I just top dress monthly (on average, depends on how much or little they eat) with 1/4 cup of crab/kelp/neem and cover that up with some good quality compost.

My current grow is a ROLS from a couple of my 25g pots from the last run, 24 3g pots. I had 50g of used soil and added enough perlite to that to get 70 gallons of medium total. To that all I added was a heaping 1/4 cup of crab/kelp/neem and a full 2 gallon pot worth of compost. I went easy on both the compost and the amendments because I plan to top dress with both of them as needed. We can top dress with extra nutrients and/or compost at any time, but with constructing the soil itself we only get one chance. Out of 72 gallons of soil total, I'm at a little over 40% perlite (30g perlite out of 72g soil). I'm having good results with 40% aeration/40% peat/20% compost as it accounts for a variety of different things to make for a well balanced soil. Peat moss and compost all have great water retention properties, so you essentially have 60% water retention and 40% drainage which is much more forgiving in terms of watering. Always better to underwater as opposed to overwater, especially with a living organic soil.

I recommend 40% perlite/40% peat/20% compost because it provides a good balance of water retention and drainage. I see a lot of soil recipes recommend peat moss as a medium but they don't exactly explain why. Peat moss has a significantly greater CEC than coco and contains microbes and trace minerals/elements unlike coco.. however peat moss is hydrophobic which makes it quite unforgiving in the right circumstances. Coco is literally like a sponge, and like a sponge you can leave it in a sink all day long but it will only absorb so much water before becoming hydrophobic and rejecting anymore water. The peat moss isn't quite as forgiving, this is why extra drainage is recommended for peat. So while peat moss is superior as a base in many ways, it also comes at the price of a learning curve. Overwatering is a big enough deal in itself, but overwatering and even underwatering in peat moss can be problematic. If you let your pots get bone dry for too long, watering will prove difficult because unless peat moss is consistently kept moist it becomes hydrophobic and makes watering much more difficult. And when I say underwatering, I mean you didn't water them for over 24 hours. Overwatering in peat moss (or any soil for that matter) puts you at a very high risk of nutrient lockout (pH becomes super acidic), root rot, and anaerobic conditions and as a result of all of these factors things will go south rather quickly.
 

keepsake

Well-Known Member
Overwatering is a big enough deal in itself, but overwatering and even underwatering in peat moss can be problematic. If you let your pots get bone dry for too long, watering will prove difficult because unless peat moss is consistently kept moist it becomes hydrophobic and makes watering much more difficult. And when I say underwatering, I mean you didn't water them for over 24 hours. Overwatering in peat moss (or any soil for that matter) puts you at a very high risk of nutrient lockout (pH becomes super acidic), root rot, and anaerobic conditions and as a result of all of these factors things will go south rather quickly.
I plan to put my fabric pots on a container that holds 6 inches of perlite. I will always keep water in the container. This is a wicking system of some sort. What do you think of this idea?
 

Thai_Lights

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply kratos.Today I mixed my soil in my 4x8. Peat/fish compost and some steer manure and perlit. I did a layer of perlite on the bottom also. I've only planted in half the bed so far 9 plants. 3 garlic breath #1, 3 garlic breath #3 and 3 lemon skunk by DNA genetics. I threw down some crimson clover seeds as well as some lavender. Will post pics tomorrow.
 

keepsake

Well-Known Member
You didn't let it cook first? And planted cannabis seeds directly into your bed?

I bet it smells good in your tent lol
 

Lightgreen2k

Well-Known Member
Hey man, sorry it took so long to reply, I never got a notification that you replied to me. Glad to help though! And you're right about not needing to still calculate for 1/2 cup per cu.ft. with all that perlite, I used 1/4 cup per cu.ft. to account for all the extra perlite. From that point out I just top dress monthly (on average, depends on how much or little they eat) with 1/4 cup of crab/kelp/neem and cover that up with some good quality compost.

My current grow is a ROLS from a couple of my 25g pots from the last run, 24 3g pots. I had 50g of used soil and added enough perlite to that to get 70 gallons of medium total. To that all I added was a heaping 1/4 cup of crab/kelp/neem and a full 2 gallon pot worth of compost. I went easy on both the compost and the amendments because I plan to top dress with both of them as needed. We can top dress with extra nutrients and/or compost at any time, but with constructing the soil itself we only get one chance. Out of 72 gallons of soil total, I'm at a little over 40% perlite (30g perlite out of 72g soil). I'm having good results with 40% aeration/40% peat/20% compost as it accounts for a variety of different things to make for a well balanced soil. Peat moss and compost all have great water retention properties, so you essentially have 60% water retention and 40% drainage which is much more forgiving in terms of watering. Always better to underwater as opposed to overwater, especially with a living organic soil.

I recommend 40% perlite/40% peat/20% compost because it provides a good balance of water retention and drainage. I see a lot of soil recipes recommend peat moss as a medium but they don't exactly explain why. Peat moss has a significantly greater CEC than coco and contains microbes and trace minerals/elements unlike coco.. however peat moss is hydrophobic which makes it quite unforgiving in the right circumstances. Coco is literally like a sponge, and like a sponge you can leave it in a sink all day long but it will only absorb so much water before becoming hydrophobic and rejecting anymore water. The peat moss isn't quite as forgiving, this is why extra drainage is recommended for peat. So while peat moss is superior as a base in many ways, it also comes at the price of a learning curve. Overwatering is a big enough deal in itself, but overwatering and even underwatering in peat moss can be problematic. If you let your pots get bone dry for too long, watering will prove difficult because unless peat moss is consistently kept moist it becomes hydrophobic and makes watering much more difficult. And when I say underwatering, I mean you didn't water them for over 24 hours. Overwatering in peat moss (or any soil for that matter) puts you at a very high risk of nutrient lockout (pH becomes super acidic), root rot, and anaerobic conditions and as a result of all of these factors things will go south rather quickly.
Great info.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
I plan to put my fabric pots on a container that holds 6 inches of perlite. I will always keep water in the container. This is a wicking system of some sort. What do you think of this idea?
I've heard incredible things about SIP containers but have yet to try them myself. I was actually considering this method alongside the blumats. SIP containers are wonderful, but the only issue with them is how pricey buying all that perlite can be after a certain amount of pots. If you only have one or two pots you're doing this with then it shouldn't cost much, but if you're doing dozens upon dozens of plants this way the cost of perlite will add up quite quickly. SIP is good for a small scale grow, but should you decide to expand your grow you'll find the costs for SIP get quite pricey and Blumats would actually be a cheaper solution. SIP is great though because, like the blumats, it essentially puts the soil in charge of water uptake via wicking.

You didn't let it cook first? And planted cannabis seeds directly into your bed?

I bet it smells good in your tent lol
There are two reasons people will typically "cook" their soil and the phrase "cooking your soil" can actually refer to one of the following two reasons. The first reason to cook your soil is dependent on the organic amendments you chose to use. Things like kelp meal, neem meal, crab meal, and the like decompose quite slowly over time and as a result don't need to "cook" because it isn't decomposing at a rapid rate. Conversely, amendments like blood meal, alfalfa meal, and any kind of guano decompose rapidly. I'm not sure if you have a compost pile or have ever toyed around with one, but a compost pile can get upwards of 160F depending on how quickly the material in it is decomposing. So typically when people say "cooking" they actually mean decomposing.

Your kelp or crab meal will react slowly with the peat and things won't get too hot if you choose these types of amendments, so you typically don't have to actually "cook" the soil, only inoculate it but I'll get into that below in a bit. Since kelp/crab/etc meals don't decompose very quickly, the soil will never get too hot so you don't need to allow it to decompose before using it. Manure works kind of the same way, using straight manure puts you at a high risk of burning your girls, so it's better to combine the manure with peat moss and let it sit until it becomes compost.

However when you use something "hot" like blood meal and guanos they decompose at such a rapid rate that it'll straight bring the temps of your soil to anywhere between 100-160F. In this case, cooking (letting it decompose first) is mandatory otherwise you run the risk of exposing your roots to the above temps which will kill them off right quick.

The other reason you'll see people use the phrase "cook your soil" is in reference to inoculating it with the microbes that will actually process all of your organic material. The C:N reactions will decompose these materials over time, but not nearly as quickly as microbes will.. plus your microbes are what build a relationship with your roots, not the amendments we use, so we definitely want microbes going as soon as possible. Fortunately, inoculating your soil is incredibly simple now ever since I stumbled across the "Growers Recharge" product that I can't recommend highly enough. You used to have to brew an EWC and/or compost tea of some sort to inoculate your soil with, now you can just grab a jar of recharge, mix 1/2 tsp of it per 1 gallon of water and you're good to go. You could even use a fish hydrolysate/emulsion to inoculate your soil. Fish hydrolysate and emulsion are also products that I just can't recommend highly enough, but as you pointed out they stink! Keep the scent of fish/seafood products in mind if you have cats, I have to be careful watering my veggies with the stuff because it drives my cats insane xD

As for direct sowing the seeds, that is definitely the absolute best method to use to start seedlings.. however it does come at the cost of a learning curve for sure. Using the paper towel method is pretty much foolproof in terms of getting high germination rates.. the problem with the towel method though is that sometimes the roots grow into the towel and have to be ripped out which can cause issues. Furthermore, the seedlings can be planted improperly also causing issues.. and issues at that stage can be life and death.

The reason direct sowing is difficult is because instead of using a towel/bag to control the moisture and humidity, you now have to do so yourself. Your soil has to be perfectly and consistently moist to direct sow. If the soil is too wet the seedling will die the instant the taproot pokes out as it will drown. If the soil is too dry, it straight won't do a damn thing. If the soil gets too dry when the taproot comes out, it can wither and die quite easily. If you're wanting to direct sow, a pump sprayer will be your best friend because it will help keep your soil moist without adding too much water, and at a gentle mist that won't disturb your seeds. Direct sowing is the shit, especially if you direct sow into the final pot. The plants will never see transplant stress and will never experience shock in the seedling stage, which translates into faster growth :)

Just keep in mind that it is at the cost of a learning curve and is something that will need to be dialed in. I can get 90%+ germination rates all day with the towel method. When I first attempted direct sowing though, my germination rates went down to 40-50%. Using my pump sprayer to water direct sowed seeds has brought my germination rates back up to the 90% they once were at, but it took a bit of troubleshooting on my part.

HTH!
 

bizfactory

Well-Known Member
18 plants in a 4x8. This row here is garlic breath #1 the least stretchy pheno besides the ogkb. Top dressed some sea soil compost and threw down some crimson clover and lavender.
How's that ogkb dom garlic breath? Have you flowered it yet? I wrongly sexed one but kept it outside, turned out to be a lady. It vegges sooo slow!
 

Thai_Lights

Well-Known Member
I haven't flowered it out but I've had moms vegging 4 months. Ogkb is slow af.... I have a super tall pheno and one that's not as stretchy. Haven't flowered any of them and I have some Tropicana trail and m69 x papaya from oni and some lemon skunk DNA genetics in the 4x8 also.
 
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